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being labled as gay?

Started by kg85621, October 22, 2013, 11:05:02 AM

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Heather

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 11:08:49 AM
Because I am compared to them.
Mind you ..i do not feel better then anyone. Nor do I even like being female...i have no use trying to prove I am MORE female, while I do not even want to be one.

Thats also the pain I go through every day...that I will never truely be regarded female and almost dying from insecurity and being hurt by men...trouble loving my body...trouble finding myself attractive...list goes on...

Most transwoman are for more self assured then I am and far less humble.
They are also not unhappy about being trans in the same way I am.
I think you have more in common with a lot of us than you realize I struggle with these same insecurities. And trust me their were days I hated being female and wished nothing more than to be male but that's not who I am. If your ever going to find happiness your going to have to accept who you are fully including the parts you don't like. :)
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Sibila

I can see in your eyes Heather...that you are a darling.

I have accepted that I will never be able to accept it...is that ok too?
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Sybil

Sibila,

I feel for your frustrations. I really do.

I feel grievances some times, too, when trans women play into ridiculous stereotypes. It bothers me when a lot of our ilk try to validate themselves or reinforce their insecurities by fulfilling tropes and feminine expectations. It really annoys me when trans women feel entitled and use boisterous attitudes or become grossly offended to try and combat discomfort or perceived ignorance. None of these actions do us, or ciswomen, any favors.

The way you're expressing yourself isn't doing anyone any favors, either. You're playing into stereotypes and invalidating both trans and cis people with them. We are people, not ideas or stories. Here's the reality of it:

Trans women can be mean.
Trans women can be insensitive.
Trans women can be stupid.
Trans women can be liars.
Trans women can be naive.
Trans women can be confused.
Trans women can be eccentric.
Trans woman can be brilliant.
Trans women can be kind.
Trans women can be honest.
Trans women can be nurturing.
Trans women can be wise.

Trans women can be awful, wonderful, reclusive, involved, uncaring, engaged, melancholic, jubilant -- the list goes on. The neat thing about this list is that it wholly applies to trans men, cis women, and cis men too.

People are all innately different and, to complicate things even more, raised and exposed differently. The even more particular thing about transgendered people is that we're raised against what someone who feels like us is typically raised as. We're taught to fulfill different roles -- and just like our cis cousins, some of us fit into those roles better than others. But that's all they are -- roles. There's no rule that says women must fulfill their common roles and men must fulfill their common roles, or they're simply not what they are.

The accusations and outlines you're making are really unfair, not just to the people you accuse, but yourself. I think it's okay to be frustrated with people who are naive and callous, but I also think it's important to recognize what you're frustrated with them about. I think you're going way too far to essentially say "I do not want to be a woman, and anyone who does is invalid."

I know a lot of cis women who love being a woman. They're in that position because they think of themselves as human first and foremost and love to do their best to be who they are. They still recognize the hardships women (both cis and trans) go through, but they wouldn't have it any other way. There are many trans women who feel this way about being a woman, too, and they are just as valid.
Why do I always write such incredibly long posts?
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Heather

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 11:40:50 AM
I can see in your eyes Heather...that you are a darling.

I have accepted that I will never be able to accept it...is that ok too?
Sibila never say never it took me many years to get to this point where I can accept myself. It's not easy but it can happen if your allow yourself to accept who you are. :)
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Heather

Quote from: Willow on November 04, 2013, 11:03:15 AM
I'm pretty sure I have the label now, meh, I move out of the men's dorm tomorrow onto a coed floor in hope of better treatment.
It's alright Willow it's just a label you get used to it after a while well I did anyways But it can actually be quite helpful if your already seen as gay people don't seem as shocked when you tell them your trans. :)
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Lauren5

Quote from: Heather on November 04, 2013, 12:17:57 PMIt's alright Willow it's just a label you get used to it after a while well I did anyways But it can actually be quite helpful if your already seen as gay people don't seem as shocked when you tell them your trans. :)
I was reluctant to say maybe when someone was tryibg to hook up with me (in my dad's presence) and I sit with the girls at hockey games. I'm either being viewed as a hard to get playa, or gay. Meh, it should get better moving to a coed floor.
Funny I have the label, I'm actually pretty asexual, at least for now, but these men and all their testosterone oozing everywhere I guess see that no sex means closeted gay sex.
Hey, you've reached Lauren's signature! If you have any questions, want to talk, or just need a shoulder to cry on, leave me a message, and I'll get back to you.
*beep*

Full time: 12/12/13
Started hormones: 26/3/14
FFS: No clue, winter/spring 2014/15 maybe?
SRS: winter/spring 2014/15?
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Heather

Quote from: Willow on November 04, 2013, 01:00:27 PM
I was reluctant to say maybe when someone was tryibg to hook up with me (in my dad's presence) and I sit with the girls at hockey games. I'm either being viewed as a hard to get playa, or gay. Meh, it should get better moving to a coed floor.
Funny I have the label, I'm actually pretty asexual, at least for now, but these men and all their testosterone oozing everywhere I guess see that no sex means closeted gay sex.
Willow just because someone else thinks your gay doesn't make it so. And really I wouldn't let it bother you college age guys are not that bright and they can't tell the difference between gay and trans or even asexual. As long as you know who you are is all that matters just hold your head up and be proud of who you are. ;)
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amZo

QuoteIT DOES because you CANNOT fake MASCULINITY!

I think most people can.



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Sammy

Quote from: Nikko on November 04, 2013, 01:47:04 PM
I think most people can.

In fact, faking masculinity is way easier than faking femininity.
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Lauren5

Quote from: Heather on November 04, 2013, 01:39:08 PMWillow just because someone else thinks your gay doesn't make it so. And really I wouldn't let it bother you college age guys are not that bright and they can't tell the difference between gay and trans or even asexual. As long as you know who you are is all that matters just hold your head up and be proud of who you are. ;)
I know, just kinda describing the situation.
Especially not on my floor. I've met a lot of smart ones, and they at least aren't quick to label.
Hey, you've reached Lauren's signature! If you have any questions, want to talk, or just need a shoulder to cry on, leave me a message, and I'll get back to you.
*beep*

Full time: 12/12/13
Started hormones: 26/3/14
FFS: No clue, winter/spring 2014/15 maybe?
SRS: winter/spring 2014/15?
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Sibila

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 04, 2013, 01:51:23 PM
In fact, faking masculinity is way easier than faking femininity.

And how do you know that??? Do you have experience faking femininity?
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Sibila

Quote from: Heather on November 04, 2013, 12:12:31 PM
Sibila never say never it took me many years to get to this point where I can accept myself. It's not easy but it can happen if your allow yourself to accept who you are. :)

Ive been trying 35 years.... and have lived 7 years as a woman now. I am giving up on being able to accept that I am not what I am :).
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Sibila

Quote from: Sybil on November 04, 2013, 12:04:45 PM
We're taught to fulfill different roles -- and just like our cis cousins, some of us fit into those roles better than others. But that's all they are -- roles. There's no rule that says women must fulfill their common roles and men must fulfill their common roles, or they're simply not what they are.

Nobody teached me to be a boy. It would have been easier if anyone did at that time. You are simply expected to be and act as a boy. But its not as simple as copying behavior. More so, it is trying to hide all natural behavior that is feminine. And trying to act masculine, right? I did not succeed at both while I was great at acting. I did supress my identity completely at age 4. What is wrong with me? Why couldn't I do what most others did?

Quote from: Sybil on November 04, 2013, 12:04:45 PM
The accusations and outlines you're making are really unfair, not just to the people you accuse, but yourself. I think it's okay to be frustrated with people who are naive and callous, but I also think it's important to recognize what you're frustrated with them about. I think you're going way too far to essentially say "I do not want to be a woman, and anyone who does is invalid."

I did not say that, however if you are a straight feminine girl at heart and want the normal life as a woman, you will have a hard time doing that as trans. Most men dont even bother dating me when they know. The one's that do watch ->-bleeped-<- porn and again expect me to be some kind of boy and dominate them. Its very hard to find that guy that really treats you like a woman and who is dominant/masculine and caring. Those guys dont fall for transwoman... because they like WOMAN.

A trans is a deformaty to them. Not to mention that I cant start a family (which is another reason why its hard to be in a normal relationship). That, next to all the trouble with the masculine features in your body? And people associating you with men and the transwoman I mentioned. What is there to enjoy about being a woman? The clothes? The make up? I wish I did not have to mind how I dress. If I was a genetic woman, I would wear masculine clothes because they are way easier. I cant now because it ruins my passability.

And even when you do find a boyfriend. Its hard to find one that does not care that other people can see you are trans. When a man is insecure about that how will my feminine need be fulfilled... like the need to feel that a boyfriend is proud of me. Wants to be seen with me, and show me off. For example. But its there in a million things that you will notice that you are a woman, but not treated as such.

Perhaps my need differ very much from other transwoman, and those needs and desires are my problem. Genetic woman understand my needs exactly though, because they are their needs to.


Quote from: Sybil on November 04, 2013, 12:04:45 PM
I know a lot of cis women who love being a woman. They're in that position because they think of themselves as human first and foremost and love to do their best to be who they are. They still recognize the hardships women (both cis and trans) go through, but they wouldn't have it any other way. There are many trans women who feel this way about being a woman, too, and they are just as valid.

Of course... I would love to be a woman, if I was a woman. And If I was a genetic woman... I could pretend that its important to be regarded as a human first. In the position I am in now... being human, means nothing to me. You might as well call me male.

Also I dont know exactly in what world you live. But its hard for genetic woman (perhaps even downright impossible) to understand the hardship of a transwoman. In fact, you might end up with them saying that you had the privilege to be male. And I can understand that. Its exactly the same way I think about a lot of transwoman.
They seem so lucky compared to the stuff I had to go through and still go though. It never stops.
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Sammy

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 02:15:54 PM
And how do you know that??? Do you have experience faking femininity?

No, but I have experience in faking masculinity and since guys mostly are way simplier than women, then... I made an educated guess :).
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Sammy

Quote from: <3 on November 04, 2013, 03:17:31 PM
I don't know about faking femininity since it just comes naturally but I'd say masculinity is pretty hard to fake.  I sure can't figure it out and I've had almost 30 years to practice.

Well, I guess it depends on our definitions of masculinity then :)
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amZo

QuoteNobody teached me to be a boy.

Sure you were. From the moment we're born we're socialized to be our physical gender. It comes from every possible direction and source... parents, siblings, school, strangers, friends, television, etc.
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Chaos

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 02:56:57 PM
Nobody teached me to be a boy. It would have been easier if anyone did at that time. You are simply expected to be and act as a boy. But its not as simple as copying behavior. More so, it is trying to hide all natural behavior that is feminine. And trying to act masculine, right? I did not succeed at both while I was great at acting. I did supress my identity completely at age 4. What is wrong with me? Why couldn't I do what most others did?

I did not say that, however if you are a straight feminine girl at heart and want the normal life as a woman, you will have a hard time doing that as trans. Most men dont even bother dating me when they know. The one's that do watch ->-bleeped-<- porn and again expect me to be some kind of boy and dominate them. Its very hard to find that guy that really treats you like a woman and who is dominant/masculine and caring. Those guys dont fall for transwoman... because they like WOMAN.

A trans is a deformaty to them. Not to mention that I cant start a family (which is another reason why its hard to be in a normal relationship). That, next to all the trouble with the masculine features in your body? And people associating you with men and the transwoman I mentioned. What is there to enjoy about being a woman? The clothes? The make up? I wish I did not have to mind how I dress. If I was a genetic woman, I would wear masculine clothes because they are way easier. I cant now because it ruins my passability.

And even when you do find a boyfriend. Its hard to find one that does not care that other people can see you are trans. When a man is insecure about that how will my feminine need be fulfilled... like the need to feel that a boyfriend is proud of me. Wants to be seen with me, and show me off. For example. But its there in a million things that you will notice that you are a woman, but not treated as such.

Perhaps my need differ very much from other transwoman, and those needs and desires are my problem. Genetic woman understand my needs exactly though, because they are their needs to.


Of course... I would love to be a woman, if I was a woman. And If I was a genetic woman... I could pretend that its important to be regarded as a human first. In the position I am in now... being human, means nothing to me. You might as well call me male.

Also I dont know exactly in what world you live. But its hard for genetic woman (perhaps even downright impossible) to understand the hardship of a transwoman. In fact, you might end up with them saying that you had the privilege to be male. And I can understand that. Its exactly the same way I think about a lot of transwoman.
They seem so lucky compared to the stuff I had to go through and still go though. It never stops.


One thing people fail to remember is that ASIDE from gender,we are humans first.When we were born,we didnt worry about others or their point of views on us.As we grew and society/other people,started to show those points of views and ideas,we *tried* to reform to those things.As we hit high school and the hardest time of all,we dressed/talked/looked how we thought people would accept us-i know i did.I didnt know i was Trans back then but i tried hard to fit in and be accepted,to be someone else.But i was sheltered,i didnt know what gender was,sex,orientation,what was bad or good-and people still didnt accept me.The woman hated me and the men used me/abused me.So im sure you could imagine,the only ones i could be around were men who seen me as some freak (though i didnt know anything yet) but they just knew something was wrong with me and they seen it as the perfect chance.with not knowing and all the bad things in my life,i ended up hitting a low time in my life where i tried to kill myself but still didnt know why-why it hurt so bad,why i had no want for anything or lived in a black hole.I always told people that *it feels like im living in a 3rd diminsion and no idea how to get back to earth/reality* How could someone who didnt know anything about femininity or masculinity,be *acting* in any way? im sure they do but not from their own knowledge.I would say i was more masculine then anything because of a few actions.

A cold truth for one is not a cold truth for all and as you do not like being placed in a box,do not place anyone else there with you.We need to give freedom to the people like me,who lived an entire life in blackness and from being set free,they can finally live-it doesnt matter if society or people accept THEIR version of femininity or masculinity but if I Accept ME and i have.It seems you have alot of inner struggle,trying to reform or hoping to reform to be something your not.Its also NOT about being something your not,someone your not or even regrets on how you wish things could be/couldnt be a certain way.Its about doing what you can here and now,to make life worth living as WHO you are.So what if a woman has slightly bigger feet,i see it as a beautiful woman with bigger feet and they say ALOT about her.She has walked MILES on those feet,rough and broken skin from how far she has come,that alone is beautiful.Let go of the negatives and get up! stand up on those feet and tell society and its ideas,that you will not reform and that you will be YOU-even if that means roughing up those feet even more.And encourage other people like you,to do the exact same thing.
All Thing's Come With A Price...
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Sybil

Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on November 04, 2013, 03:12:14 PM
No, but I have experience in faking masculinity and since guys mostly are way simplier than women, then... I made an educated guess :).
It's the same for me, haha.

Faking stereotypical masculinity:
-Stay monotone.
-Use lots of words like "nah," "man," and "dude." Anything that makes you seem aloof.
-Talk in commands and absolutes. Use terms like "absolutely," "definitely," "no question."
-Use as little facial expression as possible, unless it's negative facial expression (furrow eyebrows, grimacing, squinting, glaring). Avoid smiling at all costs.
-Be loud.
-Try not to use your hands much when you talk, and if you do, avoid much wrist movement.
-Take up as much space as possible.

To be honest, I find this really hard to keep up over a long period of time, especially if I'm concentrating on something else in a conversation. I also have a feeling that any actual men reading this would think I have no clue what I'm talking about.
Why do I always write such incredibly long posts?
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KabitTarah

Who says anyone's faking anything?

Not only is this conversation fairly offensive in tone (and some of the things that were said), but it's also very gender binary. Everything I've seen on Susan's 'til now has been fairly open to everyone and not against certain segments of the trans* population (as I personally feel this conversation has been taken).

Masculinity and femininity? We were taught one and some (not all) lived in that world for a time... we need to learn the other - which comes easily to some, more difficultly to others. We are similar, but each of us is in a completely different place from the others. I suggest we try to help and learn from each other.

Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way... mods?
~ Tarah ~

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kelly_aus

Quote from: Sibila on November 04, 2013, 10:41:56 AM
Except for just ONE transfriend that I have got, while I met hundreds of them and have been online for 8 years...there is almost no one I can relate to. No one I can talk to about girl issues or womanhood issues....

They simple do not understand what I am talking about. Ciswoman do!!!!! Those are the only ones I can turn to for that stuff!

Why can't I with transwoman???? Why are they not like woman???

It REALLY dissapoints me.

I'm able to relate to and with both cis and trans women.. My friends on a quite close level.. Others simply because they are human. It's much easier to relate to people when you have things in common - and being simply trans isn't enough.

The inference that because you'd find it impossible to relate to me makes me somehow less of a woman is offensive.

Quote from: SibilaIT DOES because you CANNOT fake MASCULINITY! I was VERY creative and always wanted to become an actor. Everyone acknowledged my talent as a kid. So why did I not succeed in pretending to be a boy? Why did I not cope.

And why did they cope??? They were MASCULINE and AUTHENTIC MALES ! Even if they want to be woman. That does not make you a woman!
Most woman do not even want to be woman and look at us with suprise.

I simply cannot and do not believe them... I simply cant. I know that that might hurt others... but it is the truth though.

Most trans women are forced to fake masculinity at some point, with greater and lesser success.. Just because you couldn't do it does not mean that others can't do it..

I coped as a man.. It required a lot of drugs and other self abuse - oddly not things I've felt a need to do since I've transitioned.  I never wanted to be a woman - I always was one.



The only times I've been accused of being  gay man was when I was pretending to be one.. And my interactions with people demonstrate to me that they see me as a woman - they certainly treat me like one. Friends and strangers. It seems that because some things don't work for you or you don't understand them, so they can't be valid positions - even if they worked for others. I was a gay man who is living her life the way it should always have been - as a lesbian. I'm a woman who happens to be trans, something that I am fully accepting of.
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