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What does it matter to anyone other than my SO if I am transgender?

Started by JLT1, October 27, 2013, 12:30:20 PM

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0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

genderhell

Quote from: SciNerdGirl on October 27, 2013, 11:50:02 PM
I don't expect anyone to make the same choice I have.

Think about your future. Think about looking at a sixty-five+ year old man face, and being disconnected from your inner self. You will be saying, "Who am I? Who is this old man in the mirror? Who could I have been?"  You will have to accept that.
  •  

Claire (formerly Magdalena)

Janet,

I agree that it is the business of your children, you have me there. Beyond the immediate family, anyone else's judgement is irrelevant. In your case at work, if you decided to leave, gave them plenty of notice and helped get your replace on his feet before you left, they don't have the right to judge you for why you left. If you decided to transition and gave them plenty of notice, I'm sure an equitable solution can be reached. Either way, they don't have the right to why you did these things.

Does what you do have impact? Sure, we all have jobs that would be affected by our decisions day to day. I don't think that's the issue.

You've reached a balance. Not everyone is lucky enough to have found that. Personally, I'm not sure I could have made it five more years without putting a gun to my head. We do what must to survive, find happiness, flourish. It really is only our business and the business of our loved ones. There is no need to be made to feel like less of a person for it.

-maggie


I'd rather see the world from another angle
We are everyday angels
Be careful with me 'cause I'd like to stay that way



  •  

Lesley_Roberta

Quote from: genderhell on October 27, 2013, 11:20:58 PM
Note: Caucasian does mean white. Caucasian is a particular facial structure, anthropologically speaking.

People in India are Caucasian and have brown skin pigmentation. 

Search google images for "India people", and you can see that India people have the same facial structure as European whites.  :)

A. you are correct, and B. sadly know one ever seems to be much interested in history. It is called Caucasian based on point of origin. But society has grown to expect 'Caucasian' is a weird way of saying white.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
  •  

Danielle Emmalee

Discord, I'm howlin' at the moon
And sleepin' in the middle of a summer afternoon
Discord, whatever did we do
To make you take our world away?

Discord, are we your prey alone,
Or are we just a stepping stone for taking back the throne?
Discord, we won't take it anymore
So take your tyranny away!
  •  

Lesley_Roberta

Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
  •  

Danielle Emmalee

Discord, I'm howlin' at the moon
And sleepin' in the middle of a summer afternoon
Discord, whatever did we do
To make you take our world away?

Discord, are we your prey alone,
Or are we just a stepping stone for taking back the throne?
Discord, we won't take it anymore
So take your tyranny away!
  •  

SciNerdGirl

Quote from: Magdalena on October 28, 2013, 07:15:22 AM
In your case at work, if you decided to leave, gave them plenty of notice and helped get your replace on his feet before you left, they don't have the right to judge you for why you left. If you decided to transition and gave them plenty of notice, I'm sure an equitable solution can be reached.

Hi Maggie,

It's not really an issue about judgement of my gender on my company's part.    I have an extremely specialized skill set (maybe 10-12 people in the world could match, and I know them all). They might judge me, and not be comfortable around me, but I'm certain they would not fire me because of any discomfort with regards to the transition because I  would be both expensive and difficult to replace.  However if it cost them customers (and therefore sales dollars) then the libertarian in me would not fault them for nevertheless trying to find a replacement.

Quote from: Magdalena on October 28, 2013, 07:15:22 AM
You've reached a balance. Not everyone is lucky enough to have found that. Personally, I'm not sure I could have made it five more years without putting a gun to my head. We do what must to survive, find happiness, flourish. It really is only our business and the business of our loved ones. There is no need to be made to feel like less of a person for it.

I can totally sympathize with that.  I have had fantasies about terminating my existence in this world for most of my adult life.  Unfortunately my sense of responsibility basically has done a pretty good job of keeping those thoughts in the relm of fantasy, mostly because the wreckage I would leave if I did end my life would be much worse than the wreckage that would be left If I chose to transition. 

A common topic on here is that choosing to transition is a difficult choice, I'm merely point out that in some cases choosing not to transition is also a difficult choice.  But my current understanding is that the meaning of life is that we have choices.  Our ability to choose the life we live is the most important thing that any of us has.

All the best,
J
If I want to look like a girl, I need to eat like one.

Happiness is getting your eyeliner perfect on the first try  :angel:
  •  

Sephirah

Okay, let's try and stay on topic instead of generalising and bashing certain groups of people.

Thanks.

~Seph.
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
  •  

Lesley_Roberta

Quote from: <3 on October 28, 2013, 11:21:14 AM
But it has nothing to do with the OP, along with religion.

Has everything to do with it, although it appears religion is off limits. Ok to crap on anything, just so long as not religion. Nice to know that some things are off limits, but others not.

The point was, why does it matter to anyone other than my SO if I am TG. The thing is, why does it matter to anyone other than my SO whether I am TG or Martian, or a semi clever dolphin eh. Is that extreme? well yes, and that is the point. Society seems to think it is ok to say slanderous and biased and outright falsehoods about those of us that are TG (as well as the homosexual community), but hands off mentioning them eh.

I don't play by the rules though. Maybe not here, but I can assure you, in MY spaces, I call a spade a spade, and I bite back. I chew and I spit out too.

I don't generalize, I am ok with disliking entire groups. Why not, they are ok hating ALL of us without ever even knowing any of us.
Life is not about fair. I acknowledge that. I don't make a habit of being kind to those advocating I be put to death.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
  •  

Sephirah

Entire groups don't hate us, Lesley.

There are people within every section of society who have feelings of hatred. Not just for us, but for other things, too. That's a reflection on the people themselves, not the section of society they belong to.

You can find people from the same sections who support, advocate and are even members of this community. Generalisations aren't helpful, and they aren't accurate, either.

I'll only say this once more: Can we please try and avoid the generalisation and bashing of certain parts of society? There's enough of that goes on from people with regard to our own community without the need for us to resort to the same thing.

Thanks.
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
  •  

Robin Mack

Back to the OP (since I just discovered this thread)...

I really believe the problems that transgendered people have in integrating with society is down to societal issues, and that the broader context has to be examined in order to reach the particular.  I think it's down to evolution.  Hear me out... :)

Societies evolve over time.  Survival of the fittest, so to speak.  If your societal structure manages to unite more people than another, eventually your culture will dominate the surrounding cultures, either by conquest or by subversion.  To do this, a common religion, creed, language, and/or identity is required.  The culture, to survive, must have some fundamental level of cohesion.  On a macro scale, this can be managed through laws and policies from a government or church body, on a micro scale this is managed by strict adherents in the populace.

So, a powerful, successful, cohesive culture *must* encourage conformity on some level or another.  The way this is done is through the use of people's social desire to fit in, to belong (carrot) and a fear of being excluded (stick).  The beliefs of people who are fully indoctrinated in such a culture and who are naturally are predisposed to desire conformity are rewarded by their culture for being upstanding adherents.

However, to thrive, a culture must also change with the times in order to survive environmental (geo-political now) changes.  Thus, a certain degree of non-conformity *must* exists, and this role is filled by people who think in a more independent fashion... however, this is general.  There are certain unifying cultural ideas that are preserved for the most part even in those people.  And, people being what they are, there is a sort of bell-curve in how they respond to world-challenging ideas.  On one end, with few adherents, is complete anarchy, where everyone is free to do anything they wish regardless of the consequences.  On the other is complete conservatives who want nothing to change ever; new ideas, to them, are evil, even if it's just a new color of wax for their cars.  Everyone else is scattered along the curve, with most in the middle.

The trouble, in my opinion, comes from the fact that gender roles are enshrined in our society (I blame the patriarchy, but this isn't about feminism, so I'll leave it there).  They have historically been imposed on us since birth.  There is a small percentage of the population who doesn't fit their assigned gender, but to *this* culture that is nearly unthinkable.  To another culture, such as the Navajo, it's no big deal, accepted and dealt with.  Unfortunately the Western European culture has nearly completely overwhelmed that of the native tribes... so this tenet, that men are men and do manly things and women are women and do womanly things, is enshrined as a pillar of society.  Without knowing why, women and men, girls and boys, believe that these roles are correct.  To avoid standing out, to gain acceptance, they will conform.  To "help" others integrate, they will bully, tease, hurt, bribe, or any other tactic they think might work to get *them* to conform too.

The only way to change that (and it is changing, at least in the US) is to educate people... let them see that trans people aren't a threat to their country and their way of life.  To come out in numbers and show ourselves to be the men and women and others that we are.

It's a slow battle.  It has been said it takes three generations to create lasting change.  We're almost there for lesbian and gay rights, and to some degree our wagon is hitched to theirs.  There is promise; these are exciting times.

Much love,
Robin
  •  

JLT1

Wow,

Thank you all for your thoughtful posts. I would agree that it is a human nature problem, that there is a societal problem in the western world, that people do not understand and a there is a potential problem for many due to their interpretation of their religion.  I think that education is the answer but it is a rather formidable task to educate an entire society. However, I believe that is what we must do. 

SciNerdGirl: The decision you have made is courageous and shows a depth of love that is remarkable.  I'm in a slightly different situation.  I'm 51 years old.  My step children are out of college and raising the grandchildren.  All are doing well.  My sisters, who have had a difficult time due to our rather traumatic upbringing, have finally worked though the difficulties we all shared.  I have fulfilled my promise to my Grandmother and Mother. I have waited and fulfilled my responsibilities to my family and really, society.  Hey, this is my time.  It is also my wife's time.  However, I do not want to turn around at 65 or 75 and never have lived as me.

So, why are many people accepting while at the same time, so many more find me absolutely repugnant? 

I just find that dichotomy to be very strange and while I agree with so many posts, it is sad and it is alien to my way of thinking.

Hugs to all,

Jen
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
  •  

Lesley_Roberta

Quote from: Sephirah on October 28, 2013, 01:10:07 PM
Entire groups don't hate us, Lesley.

There are people within every section of society who have feelings of hatred. Not just for us, but for other things, too. That's a reflection on the people themselves, not the section of society they belong to.

You can find people from the same sections who support, advocate and are even members of this community. Generalisations aren't helpful, and they aren't accurate, either.

I'll only say this once more: Can we please try and avoid the generalisation and bashing of certain parts of society? There's enough of that goes on from people with regard to our own community without the need for us to resort to the same thing.

Thanks.

I do not wish to nit pick, but, when I can mention one group, and it is not called hate, and then another group, and equally, and it is called hate, that is not 'equality' it is called prejudice. I am not prejudiced when I call out a group for their actions, and in this case, I am not selecting specific sub groupings, I am calling out the category.
It is a well established FACT, that it is ok to bash some groups, and yet not others, and all due to personal bias of the persons in control of what gets 'dealt with'.

I don't like hate, but, I am also no doormat.
The expression an eye for an eye, it's literal eh.
The saying, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It means, don't cry foul if you spite me, when I spite you in kind.
Those words of wisdom, they are not quotes from a science book.

I give as good as I get.
Do me a kind act, I will return it and likely add something.
Do me a disservice, and I won't feel guilt over responding in kind, and doing more so.
I don't support graduated response. I'd rather eliminate things from my life, that would gladly eliminate me.

The question, what should it matter to anyone other than my SO if I am TG, it basically illustrates the problem we have with society. Because clearly, society DOES have a problem with TG people, and really, the only person that has a right to complain or have anything to say, is our SOs who might not really like that fact that a spouse going and getting new parts, might make it so their spouse no longer gets to have fun with the parts they might normally prefer to play with.

My being female, and married to a female, is NOT going to adversely impact my neighbour's life, or the quality of play time they might enjoy with THEIR own spouse. It's not like they will be not getting quality play time from me eh :)

And it is the specific REASONS why all of the problem with this being made forcibly more than just my spouse's problem, that makes it more than just my spouse's problem, and it is the specific source of the motivation for that being the case, that I have issues with. In a world where no one supported those 'sources', those 'sources' would not be a factor, and would thus, cease to be a burden.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
  •  

Danielle Emmalee

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on October 29, 2013, 09:15:09 AM
I do not wish to nit pick, but, when I can mention one group, and it is not called hate, and then another group, and equally, and it is called hate, that is not 'equality' it is called prejudice. I am not prejudiced when I call out a group for their actions, and in this case, I am not selecting specific sub groupings, I am calling out the category.
It is a well established FACT, that it is ok to bash some groups, and yet not others, and all due to personal bias of the persons in control of what gets 'dealt with'.

I don't like hate, but, I am also no doormat.
The expression an eye for an eye, it's literal eh.
The saying, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It means, don't cry foul if you spite me, when I spite you in kind.
Those words of wisdom, they are not quotes from a science book.

I give as good as I get.
Do me a kind act, I will return it and likely add something.
Do me a disservice, and I won't feel guilt over responding in kind, and doing more so.
I don't support graduated response. I'd rather eliminate things from my life, that would gladly eliminate me.

The question, what should it matter to anyone other than my SO if I am TG, it basically illustrates the problem we have with society. Because clearly, society DOES have a problem with TG people, and really, the only person that has a right to complain or have anything to say, is our SOs who might not really like that fact that a spouse going and getting new parts, might make it so their spouse no longer gets to have fun with the parts they might normally prefer to play with.

My being female, and married to a female, is NOT going to adversely impact my neighbour's life, or the quality of play time they might enjoy with THEIR own spouse. It's not like they will be not getting quality play time from me eh :)

And it is the specific REASONS why all of the problem with this being made forcibly more than just my spouse's problem, that makes it more than just my spouse's problem, and it is the specific source of the motivation for that being the case, that I have issues with. In a world where no one supported those 'sources', those 'sources' would not be a factor, and would thus, cease to be a burden.

The point me and Sephirah are trying to make is that you are hating on whole groups of people and that is making you no better than the people that hate all TG people.  Do you really want to be on their level?
Discord, I'm howlin' at the moon
And sleepin' in the middle of a summer afternoon
Discord, whatever did we do
To make you take our world away?

Discord, are we your prey alone,
Or are we just a stepping stone for taking back the throne?
Discord, we won't take it anymore
So take your tyranny away!
  •  

Michelle123

I would say one of three basic reasons:
1)  Religious bullsh"t.  As if anything could be done that God disapproves of.   To me, if something exists in the world it is because it was ordained by God/Goddess, all-that-is.  If it was not approved by God, it would be impossible to do. That is where we get our limitations, things like laws of physics and such.

2) Just being different.  It is human nature to like others like themselves and dislike people who are different from themselves.  This has been show with a study of babies. 

3) People with related suppressed personal issues.   These are the potential crazies.

Over time, there will be more and more acceptance with each generation.  It is still relatively new to our culture.  The ones that help educate society the most are the ones that don't pass all that well.
  •  

Lesley_Roberta

"The point me and Sephirah are trying to make is that you are hating on whole groups of people and that is making you no better than the people that hate all TG people.  Do you really want to be on their level?"

There's no way to answer that, without getting someone in a snit over the examples I'd need to offer (because without evidence, it is just someone bad mouthing on heresy).

I'm NOT on their level though. That's an oft made comment made by people that truly believe it I suppose. I don't.

Religion is responsible for it's actions, collectively and as a whole. I don't have a problem being brutally all inclusive. The reason, because it is being done to me. No they are not saying because so and so a TG raped a person in a bathroom, they need to prevent people from us. Nope, they don't even have the examples, but they are willing to condemn all of us all the same, it IS all of us, and I won't tolerate that.

I realize, some of the TG community is religious. Good luck with that.

I'm a scientist, I bear the shame of backing science, even though science has given us nuclear weapons, biological weapons, chemical weapons, machines of war, ill advised genetically modified foods, and technologies we likely should have taken a pass on.

THAT is why I am not interested in hearing the complaints that not all religious people are bad. I don't have time to keep track of all of you to make sure I know which is which.
Well being TG is no treat, but becoming separated has sure caused me more trouble that being TG ever will be. So if I post, consider it me trying to distract myself from being lonely, not my needing to discuss being TG. I don't want to be separated a lot more than not wanting to be male looking.
  •  

Danielle Emmalee

Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on October 30, 2013, 02:47:29 PM
"The point me and Sephirah are trying to make is that you are hating on whole groups of people and that is making you no better than the people that hate all TG people.  Do you really want to be on their level?"

There's no way to answer that, without getting someone in a snit over the examples I'd need to offer (because without evidence, it is just someone bad mouthing on heresy).

I'm NOT on their level though. That's an oft made comment made by people that truly believe it I suppose. I don't.

Religion is responsible for it's actions, collectively and as a whole. I don't have a problem being brutally all inclusive. The reason, because it is being done to me. No they are not saying because so and so a TG raped a person in a bathroom, they need to prevent people from us. Nope, they don't even have the examples, but they are willing to condemn all of us all the same, it IS all of us, and I won't tolerate that.

I realize, some of the TG community is religious. Good luck with that.

I'm a scientist, I bear the shame of backing science, even though science has given us nuclear weapons, biological weapons, chemical weapons, machines of war, ill advised genetically modified foods, and technologies we likely should have taken a pass on.

THAT is why I am not interested in hearing the complaints that not all religious people are bad. I don't have time to keep track of all of you to make sure I know which is which.

Perhaps then the best thing to do is to just keep your thoughts to yourself.  This is a support site, not a bashing site, maybe you should treat it that way because nobody here is interested in hearing your complaints about all religious people.
Discord, I'm howlin' at the moon
And sleepin' in the middle of a summer afternoon
Discord, whatever did we do
To make you take our world away?

Discord, are we your prey alone,
Or are we just a stepping stone for taking back the throne?
Discord, we won't take it anymore
So take your tyranny away!
  •  

Chaos

I know i could really careless about someone else lumping me with every other hating religious person.My own actions speak for me and if thats not enough then whatever makes them happy i say,as long as they stay away from me.Though i havent went through the whole thread,i would like to know how this became the topic change? and if someone elses negative views are valid when it comes to degrading another? i mean for example,i feel everyone is a liar,fake and everything else but those are personal feelings and i treat everyone as the possible difference in the world.And unless its on a personal level with myself,i tend to keep those TO myself.Some people feel being *honestly cruel* is the same as being *bluntly honest* and i hate to say,they are nothing alike-in any form.
All Thing's Come With A Price...
  •  

Kiwi4Eva

Quote from: JLT1 on October 27, 2013, 12:30:20 PM
I maybe I'm stupid about some things and I know I'm not all knowing but what difference does it matter to anyone other than my SO if I go through transition? . What is it about my being transgender that causes normal people to become hatred filled idiots?

It isn't anyone else's business if you go through transition.  It isn't your parents problem, not your ex-wife, not your ex-husband, not your children.

It isn't anybodies, because it's yours...

It's your life, not theirs...

As as for them being "normal".  What's normal?

Were all "normal" until we stop breathing, and then we are dead.

That's not normal because we are dead.
  •  

Chaos

Quote from: Kiwi4Eva on October 30, 2013, 04:36:10 PM
As as for them being "normal".  What's normal?

Were all "normal"

Me and my best friend (call him my brother) used to say *Being normal is boring! its so much more fun to be different and NOT normal* though you were right about the rest,I think if people got the understanding of *not fitting in* and just being their self,i think alot of weight would be lifted off.
All Thing's Come With A Price...
  •