A recent thought that won't go away

[Tayren76]

Hello everyone. My name is Tayren. I began to see the second therapist who diagnosed me and that also recommended me for HRT in February of this year. I have been on hormones for 5months now. I have been having a thought lately that was prefaced by a question from my therapist that caused me to wonder. My therapist asked me I had an intersex condition. I told him that I did not know. I wondered many times before because of statements people made about me. Since puberty, maybe a little before, I had gynecomastia. It never went away. I used to steal my mother's old A cup bras and wear them all the time. I also was told I had hips. People tried to get me to wear baggy jeans and I refused. My friends always said to me that I was "one of the girls" in the most natural way possible because unless I was around my family which was fear inducing and more, I would just become really reticent, docile, and even hide. I even have some of the signs and symptoms of a woman in a time of menstruation. I get the mental irritation, body discomfort, aches, sometimes even cramps, but of course I cannot do one thing. I think like a woman naturally. And since I started living full time which many of my faculty support saw, they saw immediately the change in me from not being a scared, awkward, broken speeched person, who did not know who to trust, into a confident, natural, relaxed person. I went full time on the last day of school last year. The change was that immediate. While I have been on HRT, I have been having the phenomenon of my hips shifting and at times it is ultra painful. I want to get your opinions on this matter because I have been reading a lot about it and I cannot apply the information to myself. I have always had this sense that I should have been a woman, but something naturally changed that course at least externally. And recently, I have been having dreams where I am with someone and we are talking, the person is either a friend, a boyfriend, a husband, or whomever, that confronts me some communication that I am different and out  concern they ask about it and I tell them that I am intersex. The circumstances of the dream changes. But please, I am looking for some feedback. Thank you. 

[Ms Grace]

Hi! Welcome
I'm no expert but maybe a genetic test will clear up the Intersex question. Someone on this forum recently posted that an MRI revealed her Intersex status. So there are ways to check and get a better idea.

[LordKAT]

Hi Tayren,
Welcome to Susan's

As Grace said, there are tests that can tell you. Genetic testing is expensive from what I have read. It may not really matter in the end.

[Xhianil]

Does it matter to you if you have a interest condition? If it does i fully support you getting a test, good luck on whatever you do.

[evecrook]

I've had dreams all my life about being physically female. I'm finally in hrt  and feel great about. the dreams I have about being physically female are my most beautiful dreams I've ever had. Does it really matter if your inter sexed or not

[Tayren76]

Thank you everyone. I do not know how to make the decision as decisions like this would have to have some evidential supports. I mean being asked a question, I am not sure what is behind the question my therapist asked me. I will just continue searching for some kind of information that may help me to make a decision. I realize it is not likely that to reach out to gain some experiential knowledge or experience.

[KelsieJ]

There are some very simple tests. The first called a karotype test, another would be a full bloodtest for hormone levels, but for that one, you'd have to not be on any meds for it to work.

Feel free to look at my intro post in introductions forum, and drop me a line anytime I can't promise I have all the answers because there are so many intersex conditions, but if I don't know something, I certainly know people who do

Welcome

Kelsie

[Sammy]

Karyotype test can establish whether Your chromosomes correspond to normal 46 XX or 46 XY (I tested as being normal male 46 XY ). But as far as I know, karyotype does not establish whether You have CAIS or PAIS condition - well, in case of CAIS You could probably see it by looking in the mirror, but PAIS are more difficult. But - unless I am mistaken - both PAIS and CAIS have infertility as one of their symptoms, so knowing that might probably help (I have no idea about Your family status etc).

[anjaq]

There is also MAIS.
But in the end unless there are really physical reasons to do something differently (e.g. rudimentary ovaries etc), the procedures are IIRC quite the same.
Some Scientists define TS as an "intersexuality of the brain". It means the brain of a TS person may even react to hormones more like that of the "true gender". But thats all not well enough researched it seems.
I say this because people I met back then told me I must be IS in some way - Karyotype test and MRI was not hinting to that though, but I got relatively wide hips, mostly female type body hair, no adams apple and some slight gynaemastia as well as slightly "underdeveloped" genitalia. I will probably never know if I had MAIS or not but it does not really matter that much anyways

[KelsieJ]

Karyotype test can establish whether Your chromosomes correspond to normal 46 XX or 46 XY (I tested as being normal male 46 XY ). But as far as I know, karyotype does not establish whether You have CAIS or PAIS condition - well, in case of CAIS You could probably see it by looking in the mirror, but PAIS are more difficult. But - unless I am mistaken - both PAIS and CAIS have infertility as one of their symptoms, so knowing that might probably help (I have no idea about Your family status etc).

CAIS is easy, that would be picked up on a karyotype. If you look 100% female but have 46 XY karyotype, that's a dead giveaway. For PAIS, if your body isn't overly masculine, you haven't grown facial hair or hair in a male pubic pattern, or if so, not much, a blood test proves or disproves PAIS based on leuteinizing hormone and testosterone levels, combined called the ASI index. The tricky one is MAIS, but everything else is diagnosable as a slam-dunk on karyotype and blood tests.

[KelsieJ]

There is also MAIS.
But in the end unless there are really physical reasons to do something differently (e.g. rudimentary ovaries etc), the procedures are IIRC quite the same.
Some Scientists define TS as an "intersexuality of the brain". It means the brain of a TS person may even react to hormones more like that of the "true gender". But thats all not well enough researched it seems.
I say this because people I met back then told me I must be IS in some way - Karyotype test and MRI was not hinting to that though, but I got relatively wide hips, mostly female type body hair, no adams apple and some slight gynaemastia as well as slightly "underdeveloped" genitalia. I will probably never know if I had MAIS or not but it does not really matter that much anyways

If you had MAIS you're on a better treatment regimen, lol!! MAIS people taking T replacement therapies get some way nasty side-effects compared with pretty much anyone else who has T in their body

[Katie]

Never did completely figure out the intersex thing.

I can say that I found a lot of people claimed to be intersexed appeared to use it as an easier way to explain themselves to say........their wives.

Example. I have a medical condition that's called intersexed dear. That simple medical condition is so much easier to wrap your arms around than to say your trans something.

[anjaq]

If you had MAIS you're on a better treatment regimen, lol!! MAIS people taking T replacement therapies get some way nasty side-effects compared with pretty much anyone else who has T in their body

Yeah - I know that just the own body T made me feel quite agressive and gave me unrest inside. I was always calm but struggled with the mental effects of T for a long time. It would have been interesting to check LH and hormone levels pre-treatment, but that was not possible for undiscloseable reasons

[Northern Jane]

The place to start is with your family doctor or GP. He/she can order a karotype test and a full hormone profile - you  should have the hormone profile anyway for starting HRT. Neither are terribly expensive and either one may give an indication of any abnormality. A full DNA test (VERY expensive) is next and then an abdominal MRI.

Be aware that having an Intersex condition will take you out of the "standard stream" for trans treatment and may, in some ways, complicate matters; in other ways it may make things easier. In either event, you will still face the same "social stigma" and many of the other problems faced by trans individuals so it is hardly a "free pass".

I had a strong female identity from infancy, breast development at puberty, and strange hormone levels at 17 but nobody even thought about a possible Intersex condition. I was diagnosed by Dr. Benjamin as Transsexual at 16, started HRT at 17, and had surgery at 24 in 1974 by Dr. Biber but it wasn't until after I met my birth mother at age 40 that I started getting clues about "something amiss" and in my late 50s I asked to be tested for indicators of Intersex. After over a year of testing the only abnormality found was that I DO have a uterus. No histology was done on my gonads when they were removed but the only rational conclusion was that I was a "true hermaphrodite" and had both testicular and ovarian tissue (explaining the unusual hormone levels, female development, and retained uterus. If it were not for the fact that the testing was covered by government health care, I could never have afforded all those tests!

In the end it really  doesn't matter if you are Intersex or transgender - all that matters is that you find a place in life where you are comfortable.

[Eva Marie]

There is also MAIS.

I've heard of CAIS and PAIS before, but i've never heard of MAIS so I went and read about it when I saw your post - a lot of the symptoms of MAIS sound really familiar. When I was a kid my dad mocked me for having a high pitched voice "Just like the girl across the street". Yeah, I had the dad of the year there. My voice at 51 is still soft and is not deep at all and I routinely get talked over in meetings, but that is going to work well for me during my transition  My wife and I also had trouble starting a family and when I went to the doctor to see why I got diagnosed with a varicocle. I've never been very hairy either. A lot of the symptoms of MAIS seem to fit me.

Thanks for posting that!

[Sammy]

CAIS is easy, that would be picked up on a karyotype. If you look 100% female but have 46 XY karyotype, that's a dead giveaway. For PAIS, if your body isn't overly masculine, you haven't grown facial hair or hair in a male pubic pattern, or if so, not much, a blood test proves or disproves PAIS based on leuteinizing hormone and testosterone levels, combined called the ASI index. The tricky one is MAIS, but everything else is diagnosable as a slam-dunk on karyotype and blood tests.

Well, lets say... I have relatively wider hips than average guys, my arms length allow me to cross them so that both palms are placed under the ribcage. My chest was totally bare until I was I think 24 or smth and even then the body hair which appeared was rather non-existent. The same about my arms, small brow ridge, delicate limbs and my puberty was a bit delayed. To counterbalance, I have Adam's apple, there is hair on my legs and I used to be fertile. As for my voice, I can go from quite low and deep to higher pitch without much issues... But if infertility is one of mandatory comorbid symptoms, then, sorry, I am not MAIS... - wiki was not very clear on this aspect, saying that there have been reported exceptions.
So, go figure

[anjaq]

MAIS is tricky it seems as it is so fuzzy - I think it just dispplays various degrees of "undermasculinization" in various parts of the body and a lot of these are "OR" conditions. A weird one for me personally is that my voice dropped sadly dramatically with puberty - but nevertheless I did not develop any adams apple. I did not get a lot of body hair at all and only relatively patchy facial hair - but I got beginning male hair loss pattern with age 23 already. I am not large and have a rather androgynouos face in many ways but have a large ribcage and wider shoulders. So if I had MAIS, I guess this would be kind of a patchwork body
I never checked for fertility or pre-everything hormone status though. So the diagnosis is impossible now but it does not matter - if I had/have MAIS, I am glad that it helped me along a bit, if I dont have/had it, I am lucky that I still had some features that helped me anyways

I wanted badly to be IS as ateen, as I did not know TS and I still wanted it badly after coming out and in transition as I though it would be "more valid" to have a test black on white saying why I am a girl and have to be treated and not run through the process of declaing myself mentall ill in a way.

[KelsieJ]

Never did completely figure out the intersex thing.

I can say that I found a lot of people claimed to be intersexed appeared to use it as an easier way to explain themselves to say........their wives.

Example. I have a medical condition that's called intersexed dear. That simple medical condition is so much easier to wrap your arms around than to say your trans something.

Exactly. It seems that some people think it will make their transition easier or more accepted by people. I can tell you from experience that it doesn't make a bit of difference. What does make a difference, and not in a good way, is when people claim that and are not. It muddies the waters. I had an enforced transition you could call it, before I was 3.

People saying they're intersex when they're not takes away from the issues that people who are intersex have to deal with - medically approved and sanctioned genital mutilation, forced into gender roles that they may or may not be congruous with, and having all choice taken away.

Stories like this: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/05/25/man-admitted-to-hospital-for-kidney-stone-discovers-hes-a-woman/

and this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2098442/My-husband-wife-Couple-reveal-extraordinary-story--started-bee-sting.html

and especially this, i call it the "immaculate transition", snicker

http://kallmannssyndrome.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/outting-zoe-brain-as-an-intersex-fake/

ALL 3 are FAKE and serve to destroy what we're trying to accomplish for intersex people. A friend of mine writes a lot on the subject and is the face of the intersex movement in the US, Hida Viloria. If you're interested, check out her site at http://hidaviloria.com she's done much more for the intersex community than I could ever hope to

Kelsie

[JLT1]

If the intersexed condition were to cause problems or change the nature of the transitioning process, then it needs to be investigated. There are people here on Susan's that have that situation.  Then, a person may "want to" investigate it to know.  There is nothing wrong with that. It can actually be a good thing. But it can and sometimes does complicate things.

My situation is that I'm stuck; being intersexed has complicated things.  I cannot get SRS as they will not remove testicles when there is unexplained pain.  The pain is related to my being intersexed so they are tracking through some very expensive, very time consuming and at times, very painful tests. Then comes the time spent with my insurance company trying to get coverage for tests and such when there really isn't a code.  Then explaining that I'm going to end up a woman which then messes up everything we just did.  It is endless visits to specialists, endless tests, and then endless letters and appeals and phone calls.  It is also disappointment; there has been a bunch of that for me.  We started working on my letter for SRS last week and I'll pick it up Tuesday. I just can't do anything with it yet as the little T-makers just keep swelling and hurting periodically. (And oh, they took me off E for an ankle surgery for two weeks an then the endos have taken me off E and spiro for at least the next six weeks.  Can we say dysphoria terrors???)

Some people believe it can be an excuse.  If so, I haven't figured out how to make it work.  The person I'm talking to eventually decides it's a choice and it goes worse at that point than if I just say I'm transgendered.  What it seems to mean to me is that a person gets attacked by parts of the transgendered community and then gets attacked by parts of the intersexed community.

So, testing is easy and it may lead to nothing.  Or, I think the nature of SRS surgery could change if someone knew that had a uterus, or a vaginal canal or something else.  Or it may lead to a mess.  But despite my mess, I would do what I did again.  Northern Jane's post had some very good information on her experience and on how to start a testing process. 

Hugs to all,

Jen

[Northern Jane]

Or, I think the nature of SRS surgery could change if someone knew that had a uterus, or a vaginal canal or something else.  Or it may lead to a mess.

That is something I wondered about. If I had been born within the last couple of years and proper testing had been done, could anything beneficial come from having a uterus and some ovarian tissue and the answer is NO. Though I had cyclic hormone levels before SRS, they were not sufficient to produce eggs or have periods - the testicular tissue would have prevented that - and even additional hormone therapy would not have made me fertile. As a matter of fact, if they knew I had a uterus, they would have taken it out along with the gonads. Since it wasn't discovered until I was a "mature" adult, they are more inclined to leave it since it hasn't  caused any problems in 60 years - not that I would ever allow it anyway! If it isn't a clear and present danger, leave it alone! The only change it has made in my life is that I now take cyclic progesterone.

If I had known I had a uterus before SRS, I would have kept my mouth shut!