Gender - determined by self or society?

[Ashey]

Well I think you're trying to define what a female is, and I think it's the biology. Everything that we lack and strive for (generalizing). Otherwise we have the mental component so we would be considered female by society if we had the biology to match. Ask the cisgendered and they'll constantly go on about chromosomes or genitals. 

[Lo]

Well I think you're trying to define what a female is, and I think it's the biology. Everything that we lack and strive for (generalizing). Otherwise we have the mental component so we would be considered female by society if we had the biology to match. Ask the cisgendered and they'll constantly go on about chromosomes or genitals. 

My point is... I'm sick of caring what cis folk say, lol. And that it's no one physical thing you can point to and say "yes, this is THE reason why someone is X gender". You can't, and I think it's dubious to want to even try. There's no gay gene (there's no ace gene either, and I for one am glad), and things are turning out for the better on that front without one. It freaks me out that we want a gender gene.

And when are generalizations ever good? I mean, really, when you get down to brass tacks?

[Ashey]

I'm generalizing simply to summarize the MtF condition for the sake of conversation. I understand we're all different, and we could just say we all feel whatever way we feel and screw all other opinions, but where would that get us? We wouldn't bother discussing anything lol. In any case, everything I say is just my personal viewpoint. Feel free to disregard any of it if you'd like. I'm not trying to make everything into absolutes, just offering ideas. However, I still hold the belief that gender has a biological basis. Maybe not a gene but certainly a component of our brain structures, and therefore has a purpose. Whether we adhere to that or not is beside the point.

[LordKAT]

 

Maybe not a gene but certainly a component of our brain structures, and therefore has a purpose. Whether we adhere to that or not is beside the point.

And your appendix does what?

[KabitTarah]

My point is... I'm sick of caring what cis folk say, lol. And that it's no one physical thing you can point to and say "yes, this is THE reason why someone is X gender". You can't, and I think it's dubious to want to even try. There's no gay gene (there's no ace gene either, and I for one am glad), and things are turning out for the better on that front without one. It freaks me out that we want a gender gene.

And when are generalizations ever good? I mean, really, when you get down to brass tacks?

I personally believe that any gay or transgender gene is not something the baby needs, but the mother. A mother can be predisposed to induce the transgender condition in the fetus. Environmental factors come into play too. It's just my theory... the child could help cause the hormonal differences in the womb that cause these conditions.

Society is the problem with gender. Cissexuals just don't understand - my parents quoted some stat that 97% of marriages where one partner comes OOTC end in divorce. Well sure... over 97% of those marriages are with hetero cissexual spouses who, because of society, cannot handle it. How does that put me at fault? Societal gender roles are responsible for tearing apart non-gender-normative families... Societal gender roles are a perversion of biological gender (which includes intersex genders such as transgender).

[Ashey]

And your appendix does what?

Just because we don't know what it does, doesn't mean that it doesn't or never had a purpose. There are plenty of things about humans that are obsolete evolutionary throwbacks. They're called atavisms. Most people, if not all, have lots of junk DNA that isn't expressed and is essentially useless, but once upon a time it had a purpose. In the future, it's entirely possible that gender and gender identity will seem like an archaic concept (hopefully we're already starting to lean that way), and biology may shun the need for it. Consider it a possibility for a long off 'cure' for gender dysphoria. But right now it's still very much prevalent, and biology hasn't forsaken it yet. Just because you can't come up with a use for it, doesn't mean one does not exist.   

[Doctorwho?]

And your appendix does what?

Well current medical thinking is that in fact it does have a residual purpose as a reservoir of beneficial and necessary intestinal flora. So not entirely redundant. It will of course be 20 years before this new understanding percolates our of medical schools and into the wider medical population, just as it has taken a similar amount of time for the idea of trans as a normal medical condition to become established.

As far as the Appendix is concerned it had been noted that following any upsets to the balance of the intestine, those with an appendix are more successful at reestablishing healthy populations... they recover quicker, and seem less prone to chronic conditions which result from unhealthy flora balances.

Consequently the latest thinking in many UK med-schools is swinging against surgery for non ruptured inflamed appendix, and towards treating with antibiotics, based on the fact that we now believe the residual appendix DOES indeed have a function and thus it's retention confers a marginal evolutionary advantage which is why its hasn't just evolved out of existence.

So in fact, as a medical student, I'm here to tell you that I have been taught that we do in fact now know what it does...

[Lo]

I'm generalizing simply to summarize the MtF condition for the sake of conversation. I understand we're all different, and we could just say we all feel whatever way we feel and screw all other opinions, but where would that get us?

I dunno, I don't see this conversation going anywhere either. ;P

I think people should be allowed to identity however they want and have their bodies match inasmuch as possible. Nobody needs a brain scan to transition; let's keep it that way!

[KabitTarah]

I dunno, I don't see this conversation going anywhere either. ;P

I think people should be allowed to identity however they want and have their bodies match inasmuch as possible. Nobody needs a brain scan to transition; let's keep it that way!

If a brain scan could help with early detection, though... it's still worthwhile.
Convincing the parents it's real is important... convincing ourselves should be inconsequential (especially now that we're here at Susan's).

[Contravene]

I'm only reading what was written.

Look, I don't want to argue with you but I'll leave it at this. It doesn't mention anywhere, in my posts at least, that society defines your gender. My point is that gender is an identity that's determined internally by the mind but the way gender is defined by society and the physical body are still a part of that identity, that's an undeniable fact.

Many people look at their bodies or their social gender roles and determine that they're male because the fact that they're physically male or fit male social roles matches the male identity they've given themselves.

But for transgendered people, we look at our bodies or our social gender roles and feel dysphoric because they don't match our internal gender identity. Transitioning is changing genders physically and socially. People don't transition to change their personalities or minds.

The physical body and society do not define one's gender identity but they do affect it. And if you still refuse to believe that, take a look at all of your own social roles. Are you a son, a brother, a husband, a father? That's a rhetorical question but I'm sure there are many gender specific social roles you fit. Regardless of what they are, all of those are social roles don't define your gender identity but they're part of it.

[Lo]

If a brain scan could help with early detection, though... it's still worthwhile.
Convincing the parents it's real is important... convincing ourselves should be inconsequential (especially now that we're here at Susan's).

I could see that doing a lot of good and a lot of harm too.

What if the kid doesn't have the brain structure for it? Just more "proof" that they're being ridiculous and need fixing by already close-minded parents.

[KabitTarah]

I could see that doing a lot of good and a lot of harm too.

What if the kid doesn't have the brain structure for it? Just more "proof" that they're being ridiculous and need fixing by already close-minded parents.

That depends... we don't know if all transgender people have this brain condition or not. We do know the condition exists... and the only way to check is post mortem (as I understand it).

If all have it, and it could be checked accurately (zero false positives)... it would only be of benefit. Obviously this statement is impossible... no medical test is that accurate and we're likely dealing with a normal curve for brain gender structure, too...

On the other hand, there are lots of tests that have false positives and false negatives. These are just as damaging, but the overall benefit outweighs the overall detriment. Detection is important, but as with any medical test it shouldn't be the only determination depending on how accurate the test is.

I think we're a long way off from that, though... there's just not enough research in this area.

[DanicaCarin]

My point is... I'm sick of caring what cis folk say, lol. And that it's no one physical thing you can point to and say "yes, this is THE reason why someone is X gender". You can't, and I think it's dubious to want to even try. There's no gay gene (there's no ace gene either, and I for one am glad), and things are turning out for the better on that front without one. It freaks me out that we want a gender gene.

And when are generalizations ever good? I mean, really, when you get down to brass tacks?

Yes there is. Several well done studies have shown that the brains of Trans folk are different. The areas that are different, closely resemble the size/make up of the "gender" Trans folks identify as. HRT has been ruled out as a cause for the differences. They still don't  know why or how, but the evidence points to a biological "abnormality" that cause GID. But then again, science has just begun understanding the human brain.

For some reason, some members of the Trans community(Not pointing at anyone @ Susan"s) refuse to accept that something is different with us. The mere thought of being "Damaged Goods" makes them stop any form of critical thinking. Literally, some argue that there is nothing wrong with us and we're just different! Ohhh yeah, what happened is a Unicorn ran past my mom and farted right when she was giving birth! That's why my brain doesn't match my body!

Heck, for all we know, this is some evolutionary adaptation in the works. In a 1000 years we'll grow are young in cocoons & look like the "Grey's".

[Lo]

That depends... we don't know if all transgender people have this brain condition or not. We do know the condition exists... and the only way to check is post mortem (as I understand it).

If all have it, and it could be checked accurately (zero false positives)... it would only be of benefit. Obviously this statement is impossible... no medical test is that accurate and we're likely dealing with a normal curve for brain gender structure, too...

On the other hand, there are lots of tests that have false positives and false negatives. These are just as damaging, but the overall benefit outweighs the overall detriment. Detection is important, but as with any medical test it shouldn't be the only determination depending on how accurate the test is.

I think we're a long way off from that, though... there's just not enough research in this area.

I just think of it similarly to my depression.

I should have been put on this medication a decade ago, but neither of my parents really believed that depression is anything more than a phase with outside causes. Since before puberty my discontent and lethargy was continually excused as being from this or that thing going on in my life; my suicidal ideations too.

Now that I'm on the medication, I feel great. And I don't really give a hoot if it's the placebo affect or not. The point is that I'm functional in a way that I don't ever remember being, so to me, this stuff is worth its weight in gold. But I can also say that I would have never wanted to be tested a la brain scan, or something that gave similar results. If it would have turned up negative, it would have given my parents fuel to keep blaming me for being sad and lazy and negative (as one of them still does). It would have made made me feel like a fraud and probably made things worse. Idk. To me, "maybe" is a helluva lot better than "no" where this stuff is concerned. But that's just one person's opinion on the matter. :I

Yes there is. Several well done studies have shown that the brains of Trans folk are different. The areas that are different, closely resemble the size/make up of the "gender" Trans folks identify as. HRT has been ruled out as a cause for the differences. They still don't  know why or how, but the evidence points to a biological "abnormality" that cause GID. But then again, science has just begun understanding the human brain.

For some reason, some members of the Trans community(Not pointing at anyone @ Susan"s) refuse to accept that something is different with us. The mere thought of being "Damaged Goods" makes them stop any form of critical thinking. Literally, some argue that there is nothing wrong with us and we're just different! Ohhh yeah, what happened is a Unicorn ran past my mom and farted right when she was giving birth! That's why my brain doesn't match my body!

I know that, but like I've said elsewhere and with other folks, that body of knowledge is woefully incomplete, and as such has the potential to do a lot of damage too. For instance, there's no room for nonbinary genders with that explanation, so it doesn't help someone like me at all. But I think words like "wrong" and "different" are pretty meaningless when you look at the situation you're describing: having the brain anatomy of X in the body of Y. To me, that's not incorrect, it just is. And it's up to the person with the brain in question to determine if that makes them damaged goods or just quirky. Just like any other kind of deviation from the norm when it comes to mental and physical health. My skeletal woes don't make me damaged goods, though it might to someone else. My bones and joints are shaped the way they are and that's that. It prevents me from doing some things that others with a more "normal" bone structure can do, but it allows me to do a couple things that they can't also. Isn't that the definition of "different"?

[KabitTarah]

Yes there is. Several well done studies have shown that the brains of Trans folk are different. The areas that are different, closely resemble the size/make up of the "gender" Trans folks identify as. HRT has been ruled out as a cause for the differences. They still don't  know why or how, but the evidence points to a biological "abnormality" that cause GID. But then again, science has just begun understanding the human brain.

For some reason, some members of the Trans community(Not pointing at anyone @ Susan"s) refuse to accept that something is different with us. The mere thought of being "Damaged Goods" makes them stop any form of critical thinking. Literally, some argue that there is nothing wrong with us and we're just different! Ohhh yeah, what happened is a Unicorn ran past my mom and farted right when she was giving birth! That's why my brain doesn't match my body!

Well... unicorn farts ARE special and so are we!

Seriously, though... yes we're different... yes we're broken... and yes we can be fixed. We're not "damaged goods..." that's self deprecating. Would you call someone born into a wheelchair "damaged goods?" I do not. Differences are exactly what the world needs to grow and our differences are fairly easily treated (medically speaking).

[DanicaCarin]

I just think of it similarly to my depression.

I should have been put on this medication a decade ago, but neither of my parents really believed that depression is anything more than a phase with outside causes. Since before puberty my discontent and lethargy was continually excused as being from this or that thing going on in my life; my suicidal ideations too.

Now that I'm on the medication, I feel great. And I don't really give a hoot if it's the placebo affect or not. The point is that I'm functional in a way that I don't ever remember being, so to me, this stuff is worth its weight in gold. But I can also say that I would have never wanted to be tested a la brain scan, or something that gave similar results. If it would have turned up negative, it would have given my parents fuel to keep blaming me for being sad and lazy and negative (as one of them still does). It would have made made me feel like a fraud and probably made things worse. Idk. To me, "maybe" is a helluva lot better than "no" where this stuff is concerned. But that's just one person's opinion on the matter. :I

I know that, but like I've said elsewhere and with other folks, that body of knowledge is woefully incomplete, and as such has the potential to do a lot of damage too. For instance, there's no room for nonbinary genders with that explanation, so it doesn't help someone like me at all. But I think words like "wrong" and "different" are pretty meaningless when you look at the situation you're describing: having the brain anatomy of X in the body of Y. To me, that's not incorrect, it just is. And it's up to the person with the brain in question to determine if that makes them damaged goods or just quirky. Just like any other kind of deviation from the norm when it comes to mental and physical health. My skeletal woes don't make me damaged goods, though it might to someone else. My bones and joints are shaped the way they are and that's that. It prevents me from doing some things that others with a more "normal" bone structure can do, but it allows me to do a couple things that they can't also. Isn't that the definition of "different"?

Agreed, the medical community is far from completely understanding the human brain works. And, any difference in brain structure could easily include the non binary genders as well. But at the end of the day we(TRans folks) are different from the majority of people. So regardless of the cause of that difference, we have to accept the difference, and go from there.

[Lo]

Agreed, the medical community is far from completely understanding the human brain works. And, any difference in brain structure could easily include the non binary genders as well. But at the end of the day we(TRans folks) are different from the majority of people. So regardless of the cause of that difference, we have to accept the difference, and go from there.

Yeah, don't get me wrong-- I like that many of us can call upon this evidence to help gain acceptance and support. It just makes me nervous when it's used not as another tool in the toolbox, but as THE ONLY tool, and apply it to every trans* person ever. It gives people like truscum fuel for their bigotry fires. :\

ETA: Speaking of, anybody remember that movie Gattaca?

[wheat thins are delicious]

I disagree with you ladies. The first definition is accurate for me. The 'physical gender' in earlier posts is more simply genitals, not gender. Related but not the same. I don't believe gender changes. We are who we are. What society says does not make me what I am, only affects how I act and feel. I have never been female and have not 'become' a man. I have always been a man.

Societal expectations change, but that does not change who I am nor can it. My identity is a solid unmoveable rock. People's perceptions of me are not. Their perceptions do NOT define me. My genitals do NOT define me. I am who I have always been, surgery or hormones or society does not matter.

This is how I feel on the matter.

[DanicaCarin]

Well... unicorn farts ARE special and so are we!

Seriously, though... yes we're different... yes we're broken... and yes we can be fixed. We're not "damaged goods..." that's self deprecating. Would you call someone born into a wheelchair "damaged goods?" I do not. Differences are exactly what the world needs to grow and our differences are fairly easily treated (medically speaking).

I didn't mean to suggest we are damaged goods, rather some Trans folks seem to feel that a brain make up that is different, makes them that way. That they are normal as can be, no matter what. Any suggestion that they(we) are different makes them defensive.

[KabitTarah]

I didn't mean to suggest we are damaged goods, rather some Trans folks seem to feel that a brain make up that is different, makes them that way. That they are normal as can be, no matter what. Any suggestion that they(we) are different makes them defensive.

That says two contradicting things, though... 1) we're different 2) we're not normal.

We're different and normal. Differences are normal... our differences are just not currently very socially acceptable. Society tries very hard to make everyone the same... when that's not truly possible because everyone is different from everyone else. That's the problem with impossible standards of masculinity and femininity.