transsexualism as an intersex condition in the brain

[spacerace]

Saw this video, wanted to share it and get other people's take on it in comparison to my own thoughts:



When I read about or hear things like this, it is comforting in many ways - for my own understanding of what is going on in my head and for when I will inevitably have to explain myself to others.

But then..there's no easy test or MRI scan to prove we have these indicators - we don't really know all that much yet, not all trans people may have them, it may not be a reliable indicator, there could be other things going on, etc, etc - so I have to basically take my own word that I am correct on how I feel.

That is not to say I am not doubting how I feel about myself at all. If anything, since starting T, I would say I am realizing I am more a cut and dry 'transsexual' than I realized before. But, I feel like using evidence like the video as a way to explain myself to others is a cop out. I don't know how to answer the, "but you don't know if your brain is even like that, right?" question if it comes up with anything other than 'I just know.' Then I'm right back where I started.

anyone else have a similar reaction to stuff like this?

[LordKAT]

I feel very much the same way. I think I'm going to show this video to my mother and get her reaction.

[KabitTarah]

I haven't watched the video yet, but I do feel that transgender is an intersex condition, too. It isn't currently testable, though, except post mortem.

If you don't have the condition to one degree or other, it would be entirely psychological. While there's nothing wrong with that, it might indicate different therapy options.

[spacerace]

The still on the video is not too descriptive what the video is, by the way - it is part of a lecture at Stanford about the neurobiology of transsexualism

If you don't have the condition to one degree or other, it would be entirely psychological. While there's nothing wrong with that, it might indicate different therapy options.

That's what a good majority of our friends and family members think though isn't it? That it is entirely psychological. This is a silver bullet to deter that. But I can't use it in good faith even to myself as an explanation because I don't know if I would pass a scan with indicators for 100% sure.

I'm a transsexual though - for better or for worse.

If it was an option, I would get the MRI scan to run whatever most accurate test existed at the time. How could you not? Being able to have actual evidence for yourself seems worth it.

If I didn't meet the criteria, honestly I would still transition and never tell anyone about the fact I even took the test. I would decide it just meant there was not a complete test yet.

[Robin Mack]

If I didn't meet the criteria, honestly I would still transition and never tell anyone about the fact I even took the test. I would decide it just meant there was not a complete test yet.

I would agree... in fact, I don't think I would disclose the information even if I "passed", and the reason is just that... I wouldn't want to discourage someone who took the test and "failed".  Gender identity is a personal thing.  Sure I'd like to have some confirmation or validation from outside to help shore me up through the dark times when I doubt myself.  It is enough for me, I think, that the medical community understands more about trans* issues and that society is awakening, too.

[KabitTarah]

That's what a good majority of our friends and family members think though isn't it? That it is entirely psychological. This is a silver bullet to deter that. But I can't use it in good faith even to myself as an explanation because I don't know if I would pass a scan with indicators for 100% sure.

I'm a transsexual though - for better or for worse.

If it was an option, I would get the MRI scan to run whatever most accurate test existed at the time. How could you not? Being able to have actual evidence for yourself seems worth it.

If I didn't meet the criteria, honestly I would still transition and never tell anyone about the fact I even took the test. I would decide it just meant there was not a complete test yet.

That's the problem, though... not the answer. It must be psychological if all other conditions that cause ->-bleeped-<- are absent. The test, however, is not the condition. Tests are fallible, existence is not.

Yes. I'd take any test possible if I weren't paying too much out of pocket for it to be worthwhile. The proof could be useful for family and friends or courts and insurance. A negative test for the transgender condition seems unlikely at best (given reasonable accuracy) and probably wouldn't affect me.

HRT remains the best current test of the transgender condition... and its before & after analysis is entirely psychological. Psychological tests for physiological conditions are not respected by the general public... and the general public (and their leaders ) are the ones who most affect insurance and quality of life.

[spacerace]

Can you imagine how bifurcating the existence of a reliable and relatively affordable scan would be to the greater trans community? Let alone the implications for insurance and parental acceptance and health care reactions...

I would like to think I would be better than this myself though I can't say for sure, but I am there would be people saying if you don't pass, it is an identity issue alone and not a medical condition, even within the trans community. One group would look down on the other.

I know I would be shattered emotionally if I didn't have obvious indicators show up on a scan. It would take awhile to build myself back up. Maybe that is a reason to never even know once we live in the far off future where that is possible, which seems likely eventually given the progress and research on the subject.

I don't think it is a matter of being for or against physical and biological medical verification of transsexualism by the way. Just my thoughts around the subject. Given these tests are being done and trans people aren't exactly overly abundant - it seems likely one of us reading this forum at some point could one day end up in a study.

[KabitTarah]

I agree... if controls are not in place to catch those who don't "pass" (the test, that is)... those people will be psychologically destroyed. Such a test does not exist (yet... looks like we might see one in 10 years), but when it does I hope it's added appropriately to the DSM and WPATH.

I worry more about the androgynous among us. They will be much more likely to be placed in the wrong box... the test can't just give a binary result... but few medical imaging tests do... (knowing none of the science, but...) more likely they will show a spectrum of some type.

Any one of us who identifies as transgender binary should expect the result we know we'd get. If it's common for such self identified people to get the "wrong" result... it's more likely the test is no good than the individuals are not transgender. If such a thing is very uncommon, it's more likely that the individual with the "wrong" result really does just need psychological help, not HRT.

This is important to me because if an easy medical test were available when I was a teen, I likely wouldn't have reached 35 with a wife and kids to hurt. Science is not what you fear... policy is what you fear. Thankfully there are medical groups who are attempting to look out for us (though it certainly is taking them a while to get there ).

[Natkat]

Am I the only one who worried?

I also somethimes feel rather intersex due to my body is seam more of a mix now, but its not like intersex is threated any better than transexuals, alot are even forced to undergo surgerys.

the whole test thing sound very much "are you trans enough" - logic and it may hurt people not only for non-binary but also for binary transfolks because it cause anoxity to pass a test to be acknowlegde.
I dont belive we have the knowlegde of gender neither the human brains to make such test succesfull.

why are we all to talk about, dignose, illness and test, when we could speak of overall accept and understanding.
In the old days it was wrong to be lefthanded, now its neither wrong neither a disorder its just "some people are lefthanded"

[Jack_M]

For anyone worried, it's likely more because you don't actually know this lecturer and his credentials enough to trust him. I advise you actually look up the study for yourself. No one quite expected the results they got and in terms of consistency it was quite shockingly on point

I think we can get caught up in the "are you trans enough" boat but the study shows that most trans individuals will show these results and if they don't, well yeah, then it is more likely psychological, and what's wrong with that?  Panic attacks aren't physiological but they're taken seriously. Panic attacks can be like cardiac events or asthma attacks. The latter are physiological but to the person suffering from one of the 3, whether it's physiological or psychological doesn't matter.

If more knew of these kinds of studies and their results, they'd likely be more empathetic but many are shut off to this kind of knowledge or frankly just unaware.  It's taken studies such as this and medical practitioner pressure to get procedures and treatments covered by insurance or national health plans because the public sure as hell aren't wanting it by and large. There's very little empathy by the everyday public that we have to wait forever or pay out of pocket for life affirming treatment.

It's not worth seeing something like this and getting worried. That study was only positive for us. It's better to see the positive than find the negative. Sure, it may only apply to people who are, say around 50% binary or more (though I'd doubt that to be honest). Who knows? But for me, I watch that video or read the initial studies and see the positive. That this is not because my state of mind is in question, but because my brain developed in such a way that contradicted my assigned birth sex. I have the utmost empathy for those with legit mental conditions, but I find it insulting to have people assume that's what I have, not because having a mental condition is something to be ashamed about, but I feel it degrades the true nature of what I go through. That my issues are purely a fault in my mentality and not the reality I feel in that there is nothing wrong with my psychologically, this was essentially just a birth defect.  The latter more suggests a need rather than a desire to transition while the former suggests that therapy alone could well "cure" me to accept my "true" gender, and this is the view many in the ignorant public have.  I haven't had any mental health issues in my life thus far. There's never been an issue there, and hopefully never will. However, most of the public would consider otherwise and to me, that's just a wrong assessment. The wrong idea.

[spacerace]

Any one of us who identifies as transgender binary should expect the result we know we'd get. If it's common for such self identified people to get the "wrong" result... it's more likely the test is no good than the individuals are not transgender. If such a thing is very uncommon, it's more likely that the individual with the "wrong" result really does just need psychological help, not HRT.

This is a good way to look at it.

Who knows? But for me, I watch that video or read the initial studies and see the positive. That this is not because my state of mind is in question, but because my brain developed in such a way that contradicted my assigned birth sex.

More than anything else, I approach the studies as wanting to be able to just accept this evidence. I find it extremely validating. But there is still no way (currently) to answer the "How do you know if your brain even fits the bill?" I think I just have to accept that there is a good chance that it would based on what I know about myself. If I go to my brother or my parents with stuff like this (if I ever talk to them again), I will just have to add that caveat - "My brain could be like this, and I think that it is..." Which is a bit discounting, but better than not having the evidence at all.

I have the utmost empathy for those with legit mental conditions, but I find it insulting to have people assume that's what I have, not because having a mental condition is something to be ashamed about, but I feel it degrades the true nature of what I go through. That my issues are purely a fault in my mentality and not the reality I feel in that there is nothing wrong with my psychologically, this was essentially just a birth defect.  The latter more suggests a need rather than a desire to transition while the former suggests that therapy alone could well "cure" me to accept my "true" gender, and this is the view many in the ignorant public have.  I haven't had any mental health issues in my life thus far. There's never been an issue there, and hopefully never will. However, most of the public would consider otherwise and to me, that's just a wrong assessment. The wrong idea.

I can absolutely understand not wanting to be seen as someone with a mental health issue when it is anything but, especially when you are in the clear and 'normal' mentally otherwise.

I also think it is very important to establish a bright line difference between it and unrelated mental health issues. Trans people with mental health problems don't want to be discounted because of their other issues. The evidence works in that way too, and while one likely doesn't help the other, I am bipolar because I got the genes from my bipolar maternal grandmother. I am transgender because as a fetus, I got washed in too much testosterone or whatever it is that happens/and or have those gene differences as well. They are different issues.

I want us to be able to know everything we can about our brains and what is different. Beyond that and knowing I feel that way, the implications of it socially and medically are still interesting to consider.

[Natkat]

For anyone worried, it's likely more because you don't actually know this lecturer and his credentials enough to trust him.

For anyone worried, it's likely more because you don't actually know this lecturer and his credentials enough to trust him. I advise you actually look up the study for yourself. No one quite expected the results they got and in terms of consistency it was quite shockingly on point

I'm not worried because I don't trust him, but because I dont trust alot of people who dont understand transgender and may be the people to deal with it.
I do not belive a dignose or a condition itself is the key to better threatment or happyness it all depend on the mindset of the people who threath you.

[Jamie D]

A study of not-dead trans people's brains:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html#.Uo_MeOJqRMc

I am a not-dead transperson (at least, for the time being).

I also happen to possess film copies of three complete MRIs and MRAs of my brain, taken in the months following my hemorrhagic stroke of March 2012.  I can attest that I do, in fact, have a brain - though I think Cindy might dispute my contention! 

It would be interesting to inspect the proper areas of the scans to see what I could identify.

[KabitTarah]

I also happen to possess film copies of three complete MRIs and MRAs of my brain, taken in the months following my hemorrhagic stroke of March 2012.  I can attest that I do, in fact, have a brain - though I think Cindy might dispute my contention! 

The wizard of Oz pulled through for you, then?

I, thankfully, have also recently found my courage and my heart.

[insideontheoutside]

I believe gender definitely isn't just a chromosome thing. There are intersex conditions out there that don't have anything to do with chromosome abnormalities either. My personal view is that if a fetus is exposed to large amounts of sex hormones then it's absolutely possibly for that baby to be born with either one of the known intersex conditions that don't have to do with chromosome abnormalities or born with a brain that is somewhere on the transgender spectrum. We all know how much hormones can effect our bodies. HRT therapy is prescribed to trans* individuals to make changes to their body to more closely match their brain. I think some of us just got a weird balance of hormones while still developing.

I probably would pass this sort of scan with flying colors. Some of my very earliest memories revolve around gender and that even as a small child I knew something didn't match up right.

But the thing is, and others have already mentioned it, why should a scan be the determining factor on whether you're "really trans*" or what? I guess it could help with validation, but even if classed as an intersex condition, that doesn't really change your treatment options or anything. It just might offer an explanation on why you are the way you are. It might complicate things for some people. It might lead to acceptance of people like me who have insisted their whole lives things were a certain way and that it was normal and there is no need to change. Like others have pointed out it might upset people who discover they don't pass the test. There is one interesting thing I noted however on that other link that was posted. The "white matter" that they were studying typically takes 20-30 years to develop. So anyone under the age of 20 might fail the test but actually be trans*. So to me, this is all very new and it not exactly the most reliable indicator.

I think because gender issues have always been sort of taboo in the culture and anyone outside the standard male or female has been thought of as abnormal or whatever we haven't had the benefits of lots of studies. Progress is happening though, it's just slow.

[Jamie D]

Hmm... you claim these scans exist. But how can we know for sure?

If this so-called brain was actually present you wouldn't dispute it every time someone told you that you are really great person.

I will continue working under the assumption that at least the section for rational thought is made of straw until further evidence to the contrary can be collected.

You must remember that I am brain-damaged.  Encephalitis as a kid left me in a wheel chair and I had to learn how to walk again.  And now these strokes.  And who knows the recreational use of natural herbs and fungi in my relative youth might have done. 

Perhaps the damage might be the source of my "dreadful" political views ... or the source of my inspiration!!

Cogito ergo dumb

[Darrin Scott]

I believe gender definitely isn't just a chromosome thing. There are intersex conditions out there that don't have anything to do with chromosome abnormalities either. My personal view is that if a fetus is exposed to large amounts of sex hormones then it's absolutely possibly for that baby to be born with either one of the known intersex conditions that don't have to do with chromosome abnormalities or born with a brain that is somewhere on the transgender spectrum. We all know how much hormones can effect our bodies. HRT therapy is prescribed to trans* individuals to make changes to their body to more closely match their brain. I think some of us just got a weird balance of hormones while still developing.

I probably would pass this sort of scan with flying colors. Some of my very earliest memories revolve around gender and that even as a small child I knew something didn't match up right.

But the thing is, and others have already mentioned it, why should a scan be the determining factor on whether you're "really trans*" or what? I guess it could help with validation, but even if classed as an intersex condition, that doesn't really change your treatment options or anything. It just might offer an explanation on why you are the way you are. It might complicate things for some people. It might lead to acceptance of people like me who have insisted their whole lives things were a certain way and that it was normal and there is no need to change. Like others have pointed out it might upset people who discover they don't pass the test. There is one interesting thing I noted however on that other link that was posted. The "white matter" that they were studying typically takes 20-30 years to develop. So anyone under the age of 20 might fail the test but actually be trans*. So to me, this is all very new and it not exactly the most reliable indicator.

I think because gender issues have always been sort of taboo in the culture and anyone outside the standard male or female has been thought of as abnormal or whatever we haven't had the benefits of lots of studies. Progress is happening though, it's just slow.

I agree with this. Who cares. It seems like in the US at least they are making the guidelines and "rules" for people to transition more vague and more inclusive of non-binary and gq people. It seems almost that the medical community is going in the opposite direction of needing a brain scan to see who's
"really trans" etc. I think stuff like this only fules the "not trans enough" argument. I personally don't think I'd pass a scan, but I did transition and my life is better and I'm happier. So, at the end of the day, does it really matter?

[KabitTarah]

But the thing is, and others have already mentioned it, why should a scan be the determining factor on whether you're "really trans*" or what? I guess it could help with validation, but even if classed as an intersex condition, that doesn't really change your treatment options or anything. It just might offer an explanation on why you are the way you are. It might complicate things for some people. It might lead to acceptance of people like me who have insisted their whole lives things were a certain way and that it was normal and there is no need to change. Like others have pointed out it might upset people who discover they don't pass the test. There is one interesting thing I noted however on that other link that was posted. The "white matter" that they were studying typically takes 20-30 years to develop. So anyone under the age of 20 might fail the test but actually be trans*. So to me, this is all very new and it not exactly the most reliable indicator.

I think because gender issues have always been sort of taboo in the culture and anyone outside the standard male or female has been thought of as abnormal or whatever we haven't had the benefits of lots of studies. Progress is happening though, it's just slow.

That's not really the point of the scan, though. Sure, many of us would elect to have it (for validation)... but it would be used for early detection of the transgender condition in children and teens. This would allow for decisions to be made to block puberty or even allow kids to go through their correct puberty at the usual age. It may also allow ->-bleeped-<- to be accepted as an intersex condition for insurance and political reasons; neither should be necessary, but mental disorders are not respected in politics and we're still seen that way.

Even for adults, a brain scan could skip a whole bunch of gatekeeping that really isn't particularly necessary. For me, a therapist is nice to talk to and useful with everything I'm going through, but he's the want not the need in all of this (vice transition... everyone else in my family seems to swap want/need ).

[AdamMLP]

I'm quite glad to have seen this post. Recently, and this is no disrespect to anyone else, just my own dysphoria talking, I've been wondering why, if it was any other body image issues that I had, say anorexia, they work on fixing the mind, but with dysphoria they fix the body.  But if there is something in our brains that can be pinpointed as being related to gender, and that it's proven to be possible to have a male brain whilst still having a female body, then it shows that the fault definitely lies within the body, and correcting that is the right thing to do.  I for one find it comforting.

[Natkat]

That's not really the point of the scan, though. Sure, many of us would elect to have it (for validation)... but it would be used for early detection of the transgender condition in children and teens. This would allow for decisions to be made to block puberty or even allow kids to go through their correct puberty at the usual age. It may also allow ->-bleeped-<- to be accepted as an intersex condition for insurance and political reasons; neither should be necessary, but mental disorders are not respected in politics and we're still seen that way.

Even for adults, a brain scan could skip a whole bunch of gatekeeping that really isn't particularly necessary. For me, a therapist is nice to talk to and useful with everything I'm going through, but he's the want not the need in all of this (vice transition... everyone else in my family seems to swap want/need ).

I don't see the point,
theres already places who allow kids and teens to have homone blockers, as well as to have insurance for transgender people and those places have NOT required a scan for it to happent.
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