Should we make a more public effort to educate about our bathroom issues?

[suzifrommd]

With a public accommodation bill protecting gender expression going up for (yet another) vote in our state this year, there is a debate raging.

There are those who say transgender folk should downplay the bathroom issues - treat it as quietly as we can. When asked, say this is about allowing us access to employment, housing, and fair treatment by businesses. Talking about bathroom access (or even any public dialog) will just stoke people's fears.

There are others who say we should educate people about our bathroom issues, help them understand WHY we need to be able to use the bathroom of our choice, and why passability simply can't be used as a criteria for bathroom use (i.e. too subjective, unfair, denies basic rights based on physical characteristics, etc.)

Where do you stand?

[JillSter]

In a perfect world I'd say absolutely educate and demand every right we deserve! But this is not a perfect world.

One step at a time.

It's unfair, but it's the reality of our situation. Too many people hate us for reasons that exist only in their warped imaginations. First we need to diffuse the irrational hate as much as we can, and lock down our most fundamental rights. Then, when the dialogue isn't so psychotic, we can start working on the issues that make those very same people squeamish. Like bathroom rights.

I wish it weren't that way, but I'm afraid it is.

[Cindy]

I suggest you bombard your officials with the rights people have in the civilized world.

For Heaven's sake you are going for a pee. What can be the issue?

[noeleena]

Hi,

THis will depend on the county you live in . okay. here in New Zealand we have had a few case's of gays useing the toilets for other reason so we had the Police come in and remove those concerned .

and quite frankly they should have as we have women and children around and near those toilets and use them . so the point is what are you there for,

Im a female and have had our grand kids with me and when the need arise's we dont expect to see men in our space or toilets, and that means any men , i know there are a few who dress in womens clothes and no way should they be there, they have thier own place, my grandkid will say he's a man im not going in there, just because he has a skirt or dress on should he be there,

as i said im a female  and Dejarn is as well so whats your answer, how would you feel about this if you are a female  born,   and why should we have to put up with this , so going back to my first part .
 
There are many women who dont need men around regardless how they dress what you may not understand we have been abused by men so is it any wonder we take a stand against this issue,

why do we have to be placed in these situations why do we have to be bulled and then told men have the same right as we do   no they dont all that happens is they take our right  because we are female they can again Lord it over us .

I do know one case of a man who dress's and cause's a lot of problems yes the Police know him .and just because he wear's a skirt should he have the same right as us,  i know what Dejarn would say .....NO.....and she's now allmost 11, if he came in to our toilet i would tell him to get the hell out of here,

So this demand your rights, are you prepared to  and what are those rights,

the rights men have,    are,     and think carefully about this they have the body strength to abuse us rape us mame us use us kill us then throw us out . men have for years told us what we can and cant do, so they then dress as us then take what we had left, the one place of safety or the one place we could go where no men are. they wont that as well.

and you know why now,    because what they have done to us,

so think carefully about us who have been ...ABUSED.... by men. and why we say no men allowed,

We . females have come along way since the  womens  sufferage days,1860's = 1920's

they stood up and were beaten abused neally killed starved  jailed then kicked out , for what just being  women read about thier lives and see what it was like being a female then,

what i wont go into is about trans people because some are useing this as a sexual detail and the other of cause is how one presents them selfs in dress and mannerisms as a normal woman would in toilets , any way we need to look at all the issues not just one or two,

and  i belive its not about ...rights.... its about acceptance, and how you go about being accepted .

instead of shouting out what you think are your rights try being a part of your real world of people where you live work and being a member of the groups you can become a part of,

live were those people are, become friends with them and let them become  friends of you,

Demand all the rights you wont , how many friends will you have after and i mean real friends .

...noeleena...

[MadelineB]

**trigger warning**
Call me pollyanna, I do believe there is a power in being willing, as I am, to say: I am a woman. I have been a victim of assaults, sexual and otherwise, by men. I am not a rapist. I am a rape victim.
I am afraid that if this law is passed, that I will be put in grave danger again. If you had a daughter who was born with a birth defect, would you want her forced to use the men's room? That's what this law would do to me.
Transgender people are not rapists. In fact, they are the most likely to become rape victims. If you are against rape, and for bathroom safety, then ensure that transgender people can use the bathroom that matches their gender, just like everyone else.
Do you really want the police judging every woman to see if they think she is feminine enough? And arrest and strip search you or the women you care about if they enter the women's room to pee. What if you have polycystic ovary syndrome, or an endocrine problem, or were born transgender, or are intersex, or suffer from hirsutism, or have marfan's syndrome, or a hundred other disorders that can make the cops stop and search you when you need to pee because you look like you might have genitals that the police don't like?
Think about it. Transgender women have been using our women's restrooms for a thousand years without any problems. Do we really want to put the power to police our pee place in a policeman's hands now?

[JillSter]

Do we really want to put the power to police our pee place in a policeman's hands now?

I didn't get that impression from the OP. Am I missing some key bit of info?

I took the meaning of this to be that there's legislation in discussion, and the question is should we push to include a public restroom law and risk scaring people off and losing the whole thing.

I did not take this as meaning there would be bathroom police if we don't.

Obviously what you described would be a nightmare scenario. I hope it never comes to that! But I don't think this is about fighting a proposal to criminalize trans men/women using the "wrong" restroom. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't get that impression from the OP.

I think fighting for your rights with a strategic mindset, knowing which battles to fight now and which to reserve for a later date when your more well protected and the general population has become more tolerant and understanding of the issues, is the best way to win your rights when "popular opinion" is largely ignorant and/or misinformed.

You can't make it all or nothing every time or you'll always end up with nothing.

In my experience the best way to educate the ignorant is to be calm and respectful, and stick to the issues they can understand. And that includes knowing what points NOT to argue before they're able to comprehend them. The bathroom issue is too tricky for a lot of people. First you have to disabuse them of the notion that transwomen are just perverts in dresses. Once they understand what transsexualism is, and what it is not, only then they can begin to understand why the bathroom issue is so important.

Unfortunately, politicians and lawmakers are some of the most manipulative and unsympathetic people out there, and need to be handled with precision. Even when they aren't ignorant or intolerant, they often pretend to be for the votes and approval rating. You just can't appeal to people like that. You have to play their game. So you choose your battles and whittle away at the injustice with each new legislation. And strive to educate and garner support from the people as you go. It's a slow process, and it's unfair in the interim, but the end result is worth the sacrifices along the way. (imo)

[suzifrommd]

I didn't get that impression from the OP. Am I missing some key bit of info?

The bill in question bans exclusion from public accommodation based on gender expression. It would be a very good thing, IMO. It would mean that you couldn't be denied service in a restaurant, store, gas station, etc., because of your gender presentation.

However, it is not clear whether it has implications toward explicitly granting transgender people a right to use the restroom of the gender with which they identify. It is widely interpreted as giving that right. Under current law, that is neither expressly forbidden or permitted, though I have never heard of a trans person in my state facing a legal hassle for using a restroom.

[JillSter]

The bill in question bans exclusion from public accommodation based on gender expression. It would be a very good thing, IMO. It would mean that you couldn't be denied service in a restaurant, store, gas station, etc., because of your gender presentation.

However, it is not clear whether it has implications toward explicitly granting transgender people a right to use the restroom of the gender with which they identify. It is widely interpreted as giving that right. Under current law, that is neither expressly forbidden or permitted, though I have never heard of a trans person in my state facing a legal hassle for using a restroom.

Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't aware of that proposal.

Is it federal?

[suzifrommd]

Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't aware of that proposal.

Is it federal?

No just in my state. It's been introduced for the past couple years. Last year it missed getting out of committee (to likely passage) by one vote.

[suzifrommd]

I'm in the downplay camp. The less bathrooms are mentioned, the better. Stuff like that seems to bring out irrational fears in people and there is no reasonable discussion when you get into irrational fear territory.

Too many people hate us for reasons that exist only in their warped imaginations. First we need to diffuse the irrational hate as much as we can, and lock down our most fundamental rights.

Jillian and JRD, I agree wholeheartedly that our main problem is irrational fear and hate.

What I struggle with is the best way to counter that fear and hate. Some people will hate us no matter what.

But are there people who have been listening to the wrong people and digesting the wrong information, who would benefit from being educated? From learning actual facts rather than misinformation?

Especially since there are leaders and institutions that use ignorance of transgender and homosexuality to spread fear and hate and consolidate their own power. Some of the fear and hate toward gays in America is dissipating due to better information and understanding.

Would that work for fear and hate against us? Or are we that different?

[JillSter]

Jillian and JRD, I agree wholeheartedly that our main problem is irrational fear and hate.

What I struggle with is the best way to counter that fear and hate. Some people will hate us no matter what.

But are there people who have been listening to the wrong people and digesting the wrong information, who would benefit from being educated? From learning actual facts rather than misinformation?

Especially since there are leaders and institutions that use ignorance of transgender and homosexuality to spread fear and hate and consolidate their own power. Some of the fear and hate toward gays in America is dissipating due to better information and understanding.

Would that work for fear and hate against us? Or are we that different?

I think most of it is just ignorance. I'd like to think that most of them, if they can be made to understand, will have sympathy even if they still don't like it. They'll tolerate, if not fully accept. And that's fine imo.

The rabid hatemongers aren't as common as they seem. Remember it's the loudest people who are heard, and angry, hateful people tend to make a lot of noise. But a lot of people are just uninformed and don't have any way of relating to trans people, so they form their opinions based on stereotypes, and we all know how ugly the trans stereotypes are.

I don't think we're so different. I think we're just "new." (Not really, but to much of the general public ->-bleeped-<- is a very unfamiliar concept. And certainly not an easy one to understand.) I think it's mostly the older generation who finds us impossible to understand. (Of course there are some very forward-thinking people from that generation too.) Younger people who grew up among more diversity seem to be quicker to accept us, for the most part. I think as the times change, so will the laws.

Those angry, hateful people do everything they can to stop people they don't like from gaining the rights they should already have. But those angry, hateful people are always dragged kicking and screaming into the future. No matter how hard they fight, reason is a tough opponent to beat. Given enough time, reason will always prevail in the end.