aspergers and transgender

[Sharon Lynn]

aww, would have been interesting to read   I've enjoyed reading this so far; it's giving me good stuff to think on, and I thank you for that

Does GID exist once hormones have been corrected?  Tough one, a lot tougher to answer than at first glance.

I would say initially that it exists for the pre-op, because going off of HRT does seem to cause a relapse of the dysphoria.  In the long run (post op), I would say it's a different story, since the hormone levels wouldn't be forced back into the offending range.  But I haven't looked long-term too much yet as all of this is still kinda new to me.

The biggest part of my thinking has been pretty much about the diagnosis and initial treatment of these two.  It might be interesting to work through some long term case studies after Friday and get a feel for that.

[Doctorwho?]

I am beginning to think that there is a serious medical study in the makings here.

Further I think that as a medical student who needs to do some research as part of my degree, and because getting published will improve my post graduation employment prospects a great deal... I may just be the right person to carry it out.

[Sharon Lynn]

I am beginning to think that there is a serious medical study in the makings here.

Now THAT is something I'd love to get my hands on if you write it!

There is definitely something to all of this, it's got the right feel to it. (yes, I know that sounds totally stupid LOL)

#EDIT#

Doctorwho, I think I might have found a way to test this.  If you're serious about the study, feel free to PM me.

[invisibleme]

I don't know if I have AS but score consistently near the top of every screening I have done online. I'm looking for a local professional who can assess me. Someone posted a JPG with 'female AS traits' - I have all but 1 or 2 even after transition to male. Not sure if I am higher functioning, but I am disabled (by a genetic condition in addition to other stuff) and feel like my functioning is pretty low compared to 'average'.

[Sharon Lynn]

Invisibleme, take a look at this list if you would:

http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_4a3112c8/wp_4a3112c8.html

This is a more general list whereas the first one was more oriented towards a "female Asperger".  If you want to see the summary of differences between the two, check this link:

http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_a58d4f6a/images/img287904ad237f1d2ab3.JPG

I would be very interested to see where you think you fit, more on the male or female side.  It might give me something to work with and possibly give you a hand figuring things out.

[genderhell]

aww, would have been interesting to read   I've enjoyed reading this so far; it's giving me good stuff to think on, and I thank you for that

I will write it all out again. Not today though.

I had listed all my family members and their conditions. Everyone from my dad inherited autism of some kind. My grandfather on my dad's side would not visit anyone, and did not like to leave his home so he might of had autism. I have an aunt that did not like to leave her house, and cannot function on the job as an accountant. She got a 4.0 GPA in accounting and works at McDonalds because it is less stress. She cannot work in the workplace, but McDonalds performing a repetitive task - she can do. She might have AS.

Also, I have one bother that we are not sure about. He is 21 now and he is a "pretty boy" like my dad and me, and when he was young he would burn his army toys on the stove. He has been in/out of jail since 17 because of behavioral problems.

That would make three of us. His mom was worried that he is a girl. She knows about me and my dad. He joined the military but then got kicked out.

AS can mean higher intelligence because of the increase in systemizing capability. My dad won an award in math and was voted most likely to succeed in college. He was also the #1 chess player in my state in the United States for like four years I think. My brother did his B.S. and M.S. in EE (electrical engineering) at the #1 EE University at the time where he would get A+ grades which is like being in the top 3% of your class. He was one of the AS 'little professors" that act/talk like professors at a young age and correct their teachers in first or second grade. I work at the United States patent & trademark office doing patent engineering research - which if you know the federal government means I am retired since the work is so easy.  My aunt got a 4.0 GPA in accounting. It seems to me these are evidence of high systemizing capability.

Also, take note, as I mentioned earlier that both my dad, and this brother, despite being so smart, and accomplished are unemployed now, because they cannot function in the workplace.  Also, my aunt works at McDonalds.

At my bank there is someone with an AS child, and he said his wife told him that there is a male heart surgeon at the nearby University hospital that has AS, and is brilliant, yet is hated by everyone, and has extreme difficulty functioning around the people there, so she was assigned to do people-negotiation for him. I cite this as further evidenc AS people can be so smart, yet have such trouble in the workplace.

I have been searching today for the articles I read that have trans-AS kids with a father who is having gender issues too.

[genderhell]

I don't know if I have AS but score consistently near the top of every screening I have done online. I'm looking for a local professional who can assess me. Someone posted a JPG with 'female AS traits' - I have all but 1 or 2 even after transition to male. Not sure if I am higher functioning, but I am disabled (by a genetic condition in addition to other stuff) and feel like my functioning is pretty low compared to 'average'.

Every AS person I ever met lives like a hermit as best they can. I would say this trait is what is common among us.

[genderhell]

Absolutely!  The severity of symptoms isn't in question, since it's obvious some people have very mild symptoms and it can be debilitating for others.  The parts that I am interested in are:

1) Are the symptoms of Aspergers exacerbated by GID
2) Are the symptoms of GID exacerbated by Aspergers
3) Are the two different diagnoses correlated somehow

The most notable example of a person AS-trans would appear to be Ted Kaczynski "Unabomber" who wanted a "sex-change" in college, and has the social isolation "hermit" like characteristic of an AS person. He was also called a genius which would in line with someone having these two conditions.

I read college literature professors say his "Manifesto" was perfectly written. That makes me think of the AS trait of having such order as to be perfection. Also, he worked as a math professor which would be an indication of high systemizing capability.

Quoted: "Convicted Unabomber Theodore J. Kaczynski considered having a sex change operation when he was in his twenties and his confusion over
his gender identity filled him with a rage that contributed to his bombing spree, according to documents released today ..."

See here .. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-673313.html

I wonder if they looked at him and saw his ASD/AS and thought "you are not a woman".

So, possibly, his GID did not get resolved, because they did not know about ASD/AS-trans people back then.

My understanding is that he spent his life writing the manifesto (no tv, no movies) by reading books, newspapers , magazines and then deriving truths about the world, and his manifesto is a list of the "truths" of the world as he saw them.

[genderhell]

The same sort of situation presents itself from the other side of the spectrum.  Since GID patients are typically loners in early life, intellectual studies are common.  This leads to higher intelligence (yes, I know, chicken and egg argument... does intelligence cause interest in intellectual pursuits or does intellectual pursuits lead to higher intelligence?  Something interesting to think about for another time).  It stands to reason that the GID patient would naturally exhibit traits both from the social, emotional, and intellectual columns.  Could this lead to an over-diagnosis of Aspergers as well?  Once again, the probability is quite high that some degree of aspie exists, but it is hard to figure out how much until the GID traits are filtered out.

Exactly!

I feel like I have partial brain damage, and I feel like it is too late for me to be able to determine much regarding the distinctions or co-morbidity of these conditions. Transitioning at a young age would of made me more social I am sure. I might not have become so educated or intelligent though.

A young child dx with of both conditions, like this trans-AS child below, and transitioned young, is someone that could be looked through her life to see if the AS goes away. The article states: "The mother said Jane would self-harm by banging her head against a wall ..." is perhaps being used as the reason for the dx of AS.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDUQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.couriermail.com.au%2Fnews%2Fqueensland%2Fmothers-fight-for-transgender-child-who-was-born-a-boy-to-live-as-a-girl%2Fstory-e6freoof-1226639929796&ei=q8KrUsGvHZD7kQeZ0YDoBQ&usg=AFQjCNGOhXneAZkVY1MbZmvQardbDKrG1w&sig2=-YQ62wRAXC3zL_l9nflEuA&bvm=bv.57967247,d.eW0

[Asche]

Every AS person I ever met lives like a hermit as best they can. I would say this trait is what is common among us.

My son (age 23) is diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome (by a psychiatrist who specializes in differential diagnosis, so I trust that it's correct), and I wouldn't describe him as a hermit.

He is getting an engineering degree, has had a roommate every year, participates in a RL gaming group and has a number of on-line friends, mainly around gaming.  We go off to family-oriented events at a retreat center and he mingles with everyone and participates in the activities (in his somewhat quirky way.)  There's even a girl who goes there who he hangs out with.  (Not yet boyfriend/girlfriend, though.)

However, he was seeing a therapist who specializes in ASD twice a week from when he was 5 until he went off to college.  He is also rather extroverted.  The retreat center also has youth events, and he went to pretty much every one he could until he aged out of the youth program, so he has known a number of people at the family-oriented events for years.  So he's had years of positive experiences with relating to other people.  I suspect that a lot of ASD people (especially undiagnosed ASDs) have so many negative experiences that they give up on relating to anybody.  Imagine if  you were deaf and instead of teaching you ASL, people just whacked you and treated you as recalcitrant every time you didn't understand what they said.

[Sophia Hawke]

Im going to ask to be tested for ASD and ADHD next time i go to my psychiatrists office. I seem to fit a number of symptoms for mild asd, as well has it being very painful to look people in the eyes(seriously irritating).   I just wonder how many of my issues could be caused by either or those in conjunction with GID.  Ive also had a TBI though at a young age that can/does explain some things.  I also feel im a dead ringer for 47,xxy(klinefelters).  Wont be able to get screen for genetic disorders till i have extra cash though.  Gaining a bit of perspective would be great though.

[Sharon Lynn]

It's one of the more intriguing connections I've seen, Aspergers and GID... now that school is over for the semester I'm gonna pull out the amatuer psychology hat and explore it some.  I do wish I had some decent access to the medical journals though... might have to ask the therapist about that.

If anyone on here has some psych experience in this area I'd love to pick your brain.  I've got more thoughts on the subject, but I really don't want to keep dumping theories on top of theories until I can at least substantiate some of this.

[LordKAT]

Who looks people in the eye unless showing aggression?

[genderhell]

Who looks people in the eye unless showing aggression?

You can have a conversation with an ASD person, and they may never even look at you. Don't be offended. They don't mean to be rude.

They may turn 45 degrees away from you, and look in that direction, and down while engaging in a conversation with you, and never look at you, and never acknowledge your statements, but are listening and processing what you are saying. I have also seen them just never look at you and find a way to avoid your gaze - their head wanders around but will not look directly at you.

My autism doctor told me to look him in the middle of the forehead, however, that gets odd.

It is really hard to explain the discomfort of being around people, and looking them in the face, and especially the eyes is like WOW here is a person in front of me, what do I do now? If I look away, and not look at them, then it is like we are not so close, and it is sorta like they aren't there.

IMO the eyes are a problem, because it brings conscious awareness that a person is present, and the presence of a person is uncomfortable. Why the discomfort? There is a long list of reasons like social difficulties, sensory overload difficulties ... all for a different topic.

[genderhell]

He is getting an engineering degree, has had a roommate every year, participates in a RL gaming group and has a number of on-line friends, mainly around gaming.  We go off to family-oriented events at a retreat center and he mingles with everyone and participates in the activities (in his somewhat quirky way.)  There's even a girl
However, he was seeing a therapist who specializes in ASD twice a week from when he was 5 until he went off to college.  He is also rather extroverted.

AS is diagnosed because of social dysfunction. 

"mingling" and "extrovert" does not sound like social dysfunction? You may have made slightly overly-generous statements there?

I have seen near normal AS people, so definitely AS people can be semi-social, and look normal.  However, I expect they retreat to their places of comfort to get away from people which is why they are diagnosed AS. I have never seen one "mingle" or "extroverted"; it is a near contradiction in the condition.

The Wikipedia definition describes it as "characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

Also, the "difficulties" in social interaction cannot be cured through repeated social interaction with others, because the difficulties occurs because of an ASD person's neurology. It probably helps though to have the ASD people know what to do to when interacting with others.

I will also point out that the word "difficulties" is a loaded term that is described from the NT (Neurotypical) perspective that if an ASD person does not fit into the "NT lifestyle" (sound familiar?? ) then it is a problem.

He is getting an engineering degree, has had a roommate every year, participates in a RL gaming group and has a number of on-line friends, mainly around gaming.  We go off to family-oriented events at a retreat center and he mingles with everyone and participates in the activities (in his somewhat quirky way.)  There's even a girl who goes there who he hangs out with.  (Not yet boyfriend/girlfriend, though.)

This is good. Engineering is something we can be successful at. 

[LordKAT]

You can have a conversation with an ASD person, and they may never even look at you. Don't be offended. They don't mean to be rude.

They may turn 45 degrees away from you, and look in that direction, and down while engaging in a conversation with you, and never look at you, and never acknowledge your statements, but are listening and processing what you are saying. I have also seen them just never look at you and find a way to avoid your gaze - their head wanders around but will not look directly at you.

My autism doctor told me to look him in the middle of the forehead, however, that gets odd.

It is really hard to explain the discomfort of being around people, and looking them in the face, and especially the eyes is like WOW here is a person in front of me, what do I do now? If I look away, and not look at them, then it is like we are not so close, and it is sorta like they aren't there.

IMO the eyes are a problem, because it brings conscious awareness that a person is present, and the presence of a person is uncomfortable. Why the discomfort? There is a long list of reasons like social difficulties, sensory overload difficulties ... all for a different topic.

Exactly my point, I've never done it. I didn't think anyone ever really did.

[genderhell]

Exactly my point, I've never done it. I didn't think anyone ever really did.

Oh. I see.   

Yes, no offense, if you were supposedly "normal", then you would comfortably, and automatically be making eye-contact 30-60% of the time in a conversation.

source, http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324809804578511290822228174

Here is an eye-contact information page for autism that describes "no eye contact", "low eye-contact", and what people might think about you  ...

http://www.wrongplanet.net/article291.html

You have an ASD ?

[genderhell]

I hate dominating this topic with so many posts.

However, it would seem trans condition has a very high likelihood of producing a person with an ASD.

If you think about putting someone's brain on the wrong hormones, and how destructive that can be if is goes
untreated for a long time. 

[Sophia Hawke]

I hate dominating this topic with so many posts.

However, it would seem trans condition has a very high likelihood of producing a person with an ASD.

If you think about putting someone's brain on the wrong hormones, and how destructive that can be if is goes
untreated for a long time. 

This.  Which is why trans people need to be caught early enough to get help before it gets bad.  Sadly only time and awarenes will help that.

[LordKAT]

Oh. I see.   

Yes, no offense, if you were supposedly "normal", then you would comfortably, and automatically be making eye-contact 30-60% of the time in a conversation.

source, http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324809804578511290822228174

Here is an eye-contact information page for autism that describes "no eye contact", "low eye-contact", and what people might think about you  ...

http://www.wrongplanet.net/article291.html

You have an ASD ?

IDK, I just exist outside of society as a rule. I work when I have to but never leave home for any other reason that I can get out of. Once I'm home, I stay there. I avoid parties and any size groups of people, always have. As to eye contact, like I said, I thought no one did that except when trying to be aggressive.

The things in that second link hit home, big time.