But you don't act like a girl!

[barbie]

People expect that my talking style and taste should be feminine, but I sometimes very aggressive in pursuing some objects. I am also good at math and science. I guess that my aggressive personality is a product of a kind of defense mechanism. In childhood, I was teased because I looked and behave feminine. To overcome this, I might have inadvertently acted like a macho man.

But, I can say my sister is more masculine than me. My parents used to say that I have better born a woman, my sister a man. There are many women here who are far more aggressive than me. Actually, after their 40s, women here tend to be more masculine than men, and they are called ajumma, the third gender:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajumma
http://yuanchi.blogspot.kr/2004/06/third-gender.html

barbie~~

[Miyuki]

I don't think it's that abnormal to not act like a girl before coming out as transgender. Among transgender people there are definitely those of us who embrace a feminine identity early on, but not everyone is like that. I tried my whole life to cover my feminine side as best I could. I started to repress myself from the moment I learned that many things I liked and many aspects of the way I acted were considered inappropriate for a male. If you do that for long enough, you start to lose track of which are the things you're doing are really you, and which are the ones you're doing to protect yourself. It really makes things confusing.

For example, a while ago there was a thread in the MTF section about nail polish. At first I ignored it because nail polish was just one of those things that I "wasn't interested in". But then I started to think, do I really not want to wear nail polish, or did I just talk myself into thinking I didn't want to because I was afraid of how people would react. So then I thought what kind I might like, looked at what kinds and colors were available, and ended up buying some. As it turns out, I actually do like wearing nail polish. But I had to force myself a little to get over my inhibition, otherwise I would have never known.

What I think you should keep in mind is, who you really are, and who you have been acting like, are probably very different people. That's just what tends to happen to a feminine person who is forced to act masculine all the time. It's a wonder we don't end up developing split personality disorder or something. But, even if it turns out you aren't the most feminine person in the world after letting go of your masculinity, why let it bother you? If you are more comfortable living in a female identity than a male one, that's really what's important.

[JordanBlue]

Particle:
This is just my opinion.  Stop trying to self diagnose. Find a good gender therapist and make an appointment.  Go in there and tell your whole story, don't hold anything back.  You may already have a pretty good idea of what's going on inside you.  Let the therapist tell you if you have gender dysphoria or not.  Then you can maybe figure out what you need to do. 

[RobinGee]

Jordan:

Yeah I'm gonna stop obsessing and just try to relax.  I am planning on getting a gender therapist to help me.

[RavenMoon]

I would be surprised if you walked like a woman without trying. certain things develop automatically based upon body structure.

This is true. Women have a different center of gravity because of the wider hips. This is why they can do that trick with picking a chair up against the wall, and men can't.

Having said that, I have read descriptions of how to walk like a women. And I have watched women walking. And they walk just like me. Except for the hips part. In fact most of their mannerisms don't seem all that different from lots of males I see. Unless the males are trying to look macho or something. People are people. But there are certain things based on upbringing.

Funny thing is I have always been told I act like a girl. I'm not doing it intentionally either. On Halloween, when I got dressed as a girl, and played in the band I play in, the other guys in the band kept commenting on how I had all the mannerisms down. Even to the point of the guitar player saying "Look at (insert boy name) sitting like a little girl."   But... I wasn't doing anything different, except I had a skirt on. I always sit like that. lol  It was all framed in the clothes and wig.

So I don't know... I know girls that act more like guys, like one of my best friends. She's also a lesbian, but she's not butch. Just not real girly. Kind of in the middle I guess. I am also aware that when I'm dressed like a girl, I can do certain things that would look funny coming from a guy. Even simple stuff, like how you hold things and how you stand. So some of that might come naturally when you are dressed the right way. You have to put yourself in a female frame of mind. A lot of it is cultural. If you want to act more like a girl, watch what girls do, and do that.

[RavenMoon]

For example, a while ago there was a thread in the MTF section about nail polish. At first I ignored it because nail polish was just one of those things that I "wasn't interested in". But then I started to think, do I really not want to wear nail polish, or did I just talk myself into thinking I didn't want to because I was afraid of how people would react. So then I thought what kind I might like, looked at what kinds and colors were available, and ended up buying some. As it turns out, I actually do like wearing nail polish. But I had to force myself a little to get over my inhibition, otherwise I would have never known.

You know, I was just talking about this with a cis female friend of mine. I wear nail polish, and I'm still in androgynous mode. I wore nail polish back in high school (like 40 years ago...). So, recently I started wearing it again, and have been buying all kinds of colors. I was looking at one called "Everybody Loves Redmond" and it made me laugh. Then I realized how fun and light hearted girl stuff is, and guys never have any of that fun. Everything is so damn serious!

So now I'm like totally obsessed with all this stuff. I even have a lot of makeup even though I'm not presenting myself as female yet. But it all makes me happy.

[anjaq]

Yeah as I said, some things like "walking" and all that - they just come if one lets go of certain aspects of a constructed self. I think ideally transitioning shoul dbe much more about NOT doing something than about doing something new.

[SciNerdGirl]

So, I might have some interesting perspective to add to this topic.

Growing up I was your standard, computer programming, Comic Book reading, Dungeons and Dragons playing, Monty Python memorizing NERD (long before being a nerd was socially acceptable).

However, I also loved romantic films and stories, jewelry, my sisters barbies, and nail polish, and I cried a lot.

I knew I was transgender (even if I didn't have a word for it at the time), and hated it about myself.  I cannot count the number of times I promised I would never "dress up" again.

Something happened when I was in my early 20s.  I discovered I liked doing martial arts, and medieval sword fighting.  I got totally into it and when I wasn't fighting, I was drinking and chasing girls. Doing these thinks made me feel more masculine than anything else in my life ever did, and I LOVED IT (I wasn't pretending or lying to myself, it truly loved everything about it).  My social life was basically a cross between being a viking and a biker.   99% of my feminine feelings and mannerisms disappeared.  Any thoughts of myself as transgender were basically GONE!  My previous struggles with gender identity seemed mostly like a distant memory of childhood that I had outgrown.  In that time, I got married, to an awesome woman that I love dearly.  I never thought we would need to discuss the gender issues I had when I was younger before we were married,  because it seemed like they were no longer an issue.

Fast forward 6 years into my marriage, my wife is pregnant with my soon to be amazing son, and I get a severe herniated disk in my neck.  All of my martial arts and sword fighting had to end since I could not risk more serious injury because I now had a son that I would need to provide for and be a father to.  Anyway, it didn't take long to discover that masculine feelings I got from beating up my friends an then getting drunk with them (something I miss more than you could possibly imagine) was what kept my GID under control.  With that being off the table, all of my old behaviors came rushing back.  I love romance, jewelry and makeup.  I have let my posture and mannerism become more and more feminine (which has happened pretty naturtally), and I really love how it makes me feel.  Nevertheless, I still need to present as male, but my masculinity has become an act. 

Nobody knows about my GID (not even my wife), although I sense that lately I have been setting off the "gaydar" of many of the people I know, since I intentionally let some of my feminine mannerisms show through my act (because I love how it makes me feel).  I would love more than anything to be able to come out and transition, but there are about a million reasons that is impossible, so I let myself push the androgynous envelope as far as I can.

just my perspective

Janet

[KarynMcD]

Women have a different center of gravity because of the wider hips. This is why they can do that trick with picking a chair up against the wall, and men can't.

No the chair thing is for a different reason.
For a given height, women tend to have longer legs and a shorter torso then men.

[RavenMoon]

Janet, we sound very similar in some ways. I was always (and still am) a science nerd (but there were no computers when I was growing up, but my first computer, which I still own, was a Timex Sinclair 1000... look that one up!), did the whole comic book and Monty Python thing, etc.

The word "transgender" didn't exist back when I was four years old and realized I was supposed to be a girl. That's the way I always expressed it, even to my mom. I never hated myself for it, or dressing up, but I can understand why others would. I hated that I wasn't a girl though. I did keep it secret for the most part, but that's just how I am. When I was a teenager I accepted the fact that I was a "transsexual," which was the current term used.

I never got into guy stuff, but I was never effeminate either. I always disliked sports (except for maybe tennis), I used to sew and design my own clothes, make ceramics and jewelry, paint and draw, etc. I worse nail polish, and occasionally eye liner, all throughout high school, and what ever girl's clothes I could get away with (i.e., no dresses!). It was he 70s, so I was very much into the glitter rock movement. I had very long hair. People just got used to me being different. 

I just recently broke the news to an old girlfriend of mine. We lived together for almost 5 years back in the 80s. If not for the very rock n roll lifestyle we lived (sex, drugs and alcohol, not that the sex part was bad), I'm sure we would still be together. She actually sent me a message on my "regular" Facebook profile and said "just curious, are you a cross dresser?" lol So I said "yes, and no," and explained the whole thing, and apologized for not telling her 28 years ago. She was very supportive and said:

"when I was in London you told me you tried on my black and blue lace strapless dress. Honestly none of that ever phased me, it still doesn't. Your mom was the coolest. Maybe she didn't get it but I'll bet if she did she wouldn't have cared. I never found you to be effeminate in any way. It's sad that you've lost friends over this. People are people, the heart is the heart. I'm happy you felt comfortable enough to tell me."

(I had forgotten all about the dress incident! I used to wear her clothes all the time, we were the same size and she had the coolest stuff!)

So it's funny, I'm not effeminate, but lots of other people, including her at some points, and my ex wife, would say I reminded them more of a woman. My ex wife used to tell me not to stand certain ways and comment on my mannerisms ... I was totally unaware of it. I also used to set off some people's gaydar, until they got to know me.

I think being overly effeminate is over compensating, because most women do not act that way, unless thy are super ultra girly. And that in itself is kind of a ruse. But men and women do act differently, and it's probably mostly social conditioning.

[RavenMoon]

No the chair thing is for a different reason.
For a given height, women tend to have longer legs and a shorter torso then men.

Ok, but it's still a difference in the center of gravity. Lifting a chair in front of you without falling over, is similar to carrying an unborn baby. Of course the wider hips are for carrying the baby, but their whole center of gravity is also based around having that weight in the front.

You can find lots of reasons given, like they have smaller feet (don't move as far from the wall and the male's center of gravity with the chair is out beyond his toes, while the female's center of gravity is above her foot.), they are shorter, etc. I'm the average height of a lot of women, and wear a size 10 women's shoe, and I can't lift the chair. I agree about the longer legs and shorter toro.

[anjaq]

No the chair thing is for a different reason.
For a given height, women tend to have longer legs and a shorter torso then men.

I dont think thats true. On average women even have a bit shorter legs. But center of gravity is different for sure. I just tried and it works.

[Stella Stanhope]

So it's funny, I'm not effeminate, but lots of other people, including her at some points, and my ex wife, would say I reminded them more of a woman. My ex wife used to tell me not to stand certain ways and comment on my mannerisms ... I was totally unaware of it. I also used to set off some people's gaydar, until they got to know me.

Myself, too! Sort of... my girlfriends were secretly unsure as to whether I was actually attracted to them, but they didn't think I was gay. Interestingly, as well as having a pronounced sexuality which seems very close to a woman's, I also do have a typical red-blooded male sex drive too. Its a complete puzzlement to me, but the latter certainly surprised the girlfriends, though with me too - they said that whilst I felt like a man to them in my physical actions, my responses and approach to sex was alot like theirs and women they knew. They couldn't quite explain why, it was something that they just felt I expressed subcontiously.

I think its very possible to have defined masculine and feminine characteristics mixed into the same person. It still seems to be taboo to be (and want to be) "a bit of both male and female", but some people just are. My housemate is and so am I in different configurations. He is much more in touch with feelings, most people think he's gay, and he is more "girly" but is also far more masculine than I am and enjoys being a man very much. I am not "girly" and I do not get mistaken for being gay, but I come across as more feminine than him. There seems to be a difference between "effeminate" and "feminine". Gay chaps may be effeminate but like being male, whilst feminine guys might not want to be male but they themselves may not be effeminate.

So yep, the whole "but you don't act like a girl" argument is rubbish. Its pretty scary when you realise just how flawed society's perception of gender and understanding of its gender experiences are. I used to be just as ignorant, and its taken years of self-discovery to break down all the stupid assumptions that I used to share with society. 

[RavenMoon]

Myself, too! Sort of... my girlfriends were secretly unsure as to whether I was actually attracted to them, but they didn't think I was gay. Interestingly, as well as having a pronounced sexuality which seems very close to a woman's, I also do have a typical red-blooded male sex drive too. Its a complete puzzlement to me, but the latter certainly surprised the girlfriends, though with me too - they said that whilst I felt like a man to them in my physical actions, my responses and approach to sex was alot like theirs and women they knew. They couldn't quite explain why, it was something that they just felt I expressed subcontiously.

Yes, same thing with me.

I think its very possible to have defined masculine and feminine characteristics mixed into the same person. It still seems to be taboo to be (and want to be) "a bit of both male and female", but some people just are. My housemate is and so am I in different configurations. He is much more in touch with feelings, most people think he's gay, and he is more "girly" but is also far more masculine than I am and enjoys being a man very much. I am not "girly" and I do not get mistaken for being gay, but I come across as more feminine than him. There seems to be a difference between "effeminate" and "feminine". Gay chaps may be effeminate but like being male, whilst feminine guys might not want to be male but they themselves may not be effeminate.

I think everyone has aspects of both, but society frowns upon it, so people hide it. But it's also funny how it's more acceptable for a girl to be a tomboy than to have an effeminate boy.

When I was dressed a a girl on Halloween, people that have known me for years all of a sudden saw my mannerisms as feminine. They thought I was doing it intentionally. The clothing framed it in a light that made it acceptable. I don't know how they see me normally, but they never said anything about it. It was quite fascinating to watch people's reactions to me! No one had anything bad to say, but the one guy (who had the nerve) that came up to tell me he liked my costume, and also went into how well I was "moving" also said "wow, I thought you were a girl... that's scary" lol  So, you have straight men's insecurities that they might be attracted to another male, because they look like a female.

So yep, the whole "but you don't act like a girl" argument is rubbish. Its pretty scary when you realise just how flawed society's perception of gender and understanding of its gender experiences are. I used to be just as ignorant, and its taken years of self-discovery to break down all the stupid assumptions that I used to share with society.

It is really stupid. Maybe someday it will change.

[JordanBlue]

So, you have straight men's insecurities that they might be attracted to another male, because they look like a female.

Yes, absolutely.  That's why Trans "working girls" often make more money than regular girls.  Men will never admit to the attraction but it's there.   

[Katelyn]

Even if you did, how could you get away with being like that in this world?  You'd have to be as brave as a fairy gay guy to not be afraid of how others would react to what looks like a girl trapped in a guy's body.  You'd have to bury those behaviors in a lot anyway if you did.

I found out 6 years ago that I had natural (very) feminine gestures and body language.  I even found out that I could feel fully female (that should show one how bottled up someone could be.)  I couldn't let myself feel like that though because I'd "blow my cover" because I wasn't in a position to be out and transition.  When I let myself feel female, my gestures automatically start turning feminine, so I end up having to stop feeling female so that my cover is not blown.  My voice is also prone to getting much more passable (I trained my voice for many years but only when I'm feeling fully female is my voice very passable.)  I have a feeling that I've subconsciously built a male mask that I've used throughout my life and only when I have done certain exercises to "get out of my persona" have I let my female self to possess my mind.  But unless I transition, I have to withhold myself from feeling female for sake of getting by in this world.

[michelle]

The way that i have come to think about this issue is that who am I as a female.   Which is grounded in my spending much of my life thinking who do others want me to be.   I grew up in an alcoholic family which subconsciously tried to hide that they were one while visibly being very much so.    What will others think was a motto.    But when they were drunk they could care less.   I am the oldest and hid my feelings even from myself.   I was afraid that if I showed my hurt and anger it would probably blow up the whole family.    Besides verbally my parents were so busy sharing their anger when they were drunk that there wasn't room for my anger.    They weren't bad people, but they had become to close friends with Jack Daniels, Bud Wiser, and Johnnie Walker that they were unaware of how they shaped their personalities.   Me, I didn't even try and drink because I felt that I had to have total control of my emotions.

This brings me back to in my life trying to figure who am I as a lady.    How having been socialized as a male instead of a female, I did not have all of the Dakota expectations of what it meant to be a woman drilled into me and did not grow up trying to meet these expectations.   I observed and was aware of the expectations of what being a female meant but I escaped the actually every day socialization.    I didn't have a male ego, and while I involved myself in male activities such as football, basketball, and track and I tried to do male construction jobs and fix everything around the house that could be fixed,  I had no male ego satisfaction, but stressed out all the time, only being relieved when I got whatever it was back together and it worked reasonably well.   

In old age I am trying to figure out who I am as a female.   When I was thirteen and sexual desires started washing through my body, I didn't feel like I was male.   I felt female.    But since being a child of the 1940s and 1950s in male dominated Dakotas with any sign of one being born with a male body acting like a female it meaning in my mind total disgrace and alienation, I decided that I would hide how I felt and deal with it when I got way older.

Well, when I got older, this decision bore fruit and when adult family fell apart,  I was had to face the fact that I was a lady who had tried to be a man all my life, and now it was time to stop pretending.   I couldn't hide my 53 years trying to live as a male and my part in conceiving 5 children and as a woman (still physically a man) conceiving one more.  So I have to accept that I am a transgender woman and perhaps even a transexual woman.    In those 53 years trying to live as a male, I had much to my discovery had been absorbing the cultural and emotional ways of woman, because I had down deep knew that I did not have the emotional where with all to be a man.

In my life living amongst a few different cultures, I have absorbed the many aspects of femaleness from many of the women I had associated with.    I learned that there is no one way to be a female.    What I need to do was let myself be, and become the lady that I am and try and integrate all of my live's experiences because I need to be in touch with all of my life and the lives of people I could still be in touch with along the way.

I had learned that because I had tried that I could not satisfy anyone except myself as to how I will spend the rest of my life as a lady.   I had tried.   All I ever got from denying my self my life as a woman from those I had been close to was,  "Well, you didn't have to!"  My ex and my kids wanted to live their lives out as they wished not caring how I felt or even if I did approve or disapprove.   I discovered that I had that right to.    As far as my kids are concerned, I felt that I would do whatever I could for them until they were of legal age and had graduated from high school.   Then they had the right to live out their own lives without worrying about how I felt about it.   I would be there if they need a place to crash and food to eat as long as I was able to do that.   

But, just as they had the right to be themselves and the right to their own sexual orientation, I had the right to mine.   Now I have to let myself be, and be the 67 year old lady that I am whatever that is.   I know this means changing me, but that much of my lifestyle will not change, nor will I abandon those dependent upon me now.   I am going to be a lady, despite what others in my immediate family think, because they want the right to be themselves also. 

  I am not married now but I have lived with a female friend who is the mother of our son.   Over ten years our relationship has been ever evolving and will keep on doing so.    She decides what it is and I try to be myself.    I consider us girl friends,  but to her only those born female can be female.    My life's experiences allow me to live with this.    Neither of us want any more kids.   Her having given birth to five children and me having been responsible for the conception of 6, the oldest being 41 and the youngest being 10.   She can't use birth control and I could careless if the boy thing works.  I am trying to let myself be a lady within the context of my family instead of my other option living alone and becoming a lady within the confines of my imagination.

For me becoming a lady, within a family, will help me become a more authentic lady because my womanhood will be developed within the pressures of real social interactions.    The only real limitations being placed upon me are not wearing a dress downtown.   I can wear one around the house and while out in the neighborhood.    All of my other expressions of femaleness are fine in public and private.    She can be ok me being a crossdresser any where even in front of the authorities.   She just will not accept me as a woman.   I just don't get it.   But I can live with it.  I have had enough drama in my life and I am totally a one partner at a time woman.   

I have never been with a man.   But if I ever am.   I will not let him abuse me and I am not into pain, so whatever he may do to me sexually whenever it happens will have to be slow and gentle.  Lots of luck.    Living within a relationship is very important to me, and forming relationships is extremely difficult. 

I am letting yu'all know most of this because I feel that life is lived within a context.  My life is totally different from any of yours so what I have to say only has meaning within that context.   If what I say helps you in any way, I am happy.    I deal with my life as I do because of the life I have lived and where I am in my life.   

My main message to all younger transgender and transexual individuals is that you too have a future.   If you give life a chance you will survive and grow old.   Your life will have a history.   That history is what you make it.    How you live as a transgender individual today is shaped by how you have lived your past.   The younger you are when you transition the shorter your past as your other gender and the longer time you will have to live as who you are meant to be.    The older you are when you transition the more of your past you have to integrate into your present.

   I feel that I will never be able to live past my life trying to be male, so I accept that I will have to accept myself as a transgender or transexual female because my past will never be hidden and I will have to totally separate myself from those who knew that I was born a male.   Which at my age I can't do.

Be kind to yourself and just become.   Life will work itself out.   Most of the things in your life are beyond your control.   We all have regrets, but so what, that's life.  There is no perfect life to live.   There is no secret committee judging our lives.   There is no one way to be male or one way to be female.  Besides being a man or a woman is always in the context of who you are.    Your personality shapes your manhood or your femaleness.   

This is all just the opinion of a 67 year old transgender grandma.

[anjaq]

One thing I just remembered that is funny - when I transitioned, one of the things mans transpeople and some of the other girls tried to tell me was how I was supposed to walk, dress, act differently because that would be more fitting to a girl. When I did, others told me I should better not overdo the acting as a female part because that is just sterotypes but rather be myself - so it totally contradicted itself and in the end really it is like that - you just have to be yourself - if your mind and brain is femal, that will be acting like any other females as well. You basically just stop acting like a male (if you ever did or tried to) and what is left is your original way to behave and thats fine. There really is no point in trying too hard because one would just fall into stereotype traps. The same behaviour is regarded female or male depending on how people see you. masculine and feminine behaviours are different - those are more sterotypical and in that case I guess one can do some changes on purpose, though I guess the advice still is true. drop the masculinity (if you had any set up as an act) and see just how much femininity will come from yourself and let your self surprise you - Maybe you are not as feminine as you thought you would be, maybe you are more feminine in some aspects.

I totall did not think I am feminine - like I do like woodworking and even blacksmithing which I am trying to get a hang of now (didnt try it pre transition though, funnily) - but then I go down a slide in a recreational water area, you know these huge ones from 4 stories up that go winding down into a pool - and I scream like a girl. Now that was unexpected for me and even made me somewhat nervous but there it is..

[Antagonist]

You basically just stop acting like a male (if you ever did or tried to) and what is left is your original way to behave and thats fine. There really is no point in trying too hard because one would just fall into stereotype traps.

This. I know that as an FTM where I'm coming from is a little different, but this has been my experience. I didn't make myself wear masculine clothes when I wanted a dress or abstain from nail polish or force myself to learn about cars and other masculine things. I was already there. I more or less just dropped the act and stopped trying to look 'pretty' and studied whatever interested me regardless of how weird is was for a 'girl' to be into it.

My point is, I guess, don't worry. Everybody's got both masculine and feminine traits. Cis and trans alike. Keep your hobbies and interests and don't take up or put down anything just because of stereotypes.

If the body language/speech aspect bothers you a lot, you might be able to 'train' yourself to walk differently or something until it becomes habit, but I don't think you should make yourself really uncomfortable in any way to meet some standard. Don't trade one mask for another.

[anjaq]

If the body language/speech aspect bothers you a lot, you might be able to 'train' yourself to walk differently or something until it becomes habit,

Personally I dont think this is really needed. It does not hurt "playing" a bit with it - just like kiddos do - walk like one of the grownups or do their gestures. Mimicking them. Just to get this into your head as a pattern out of many. But dont do it for a long time, just be playful. Its like what voice rehab people told me they are doing with their trans patients who are stuck in a monotonous low pitch voice. They just do stuff that uses higher pitch and exaggerated melodies - just to get the brain ready to get out of a learned pattern and be able to choose a new one on itself.
This is what I mean  - in terms of body language, walking, moving, all the whole outwardly expressions - you have basically to UNLEARN the old, learned patterns - maybe by exaggeration for short moments, maybe by playing around with it, lke an actor. And if you then decide to give up the old learned patterns, your mind will choose new ones according to what your real gender is Thust your intuiton and your feelings on that