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Passing & stealth; and bigotry, hate, and prejudges!

Started by Godiva, July 05, 2007, 09:58:18 AM

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Elizabeth

Quote from: Laura Eva B on July 05, 2007, 06:58:49 PM
The only way a transsexual woman is going to find a "happy life" outside a close knit circle of friends and colleagues who know and accept her for what she is, and outside of the TS community, is if she passes absolutely, or come so close to it that she's seen as 90% more woman than guy, and people are really not sure ...

Even if you are "read" appearance, mannerism, and voice tempers reaction, even most guys will accept a good looking TS woman, yes "beauty" trumps all !

But I think it is a lost cause if we expect anything other than upturned eyebrows, stares, ridicule, even hostility, towards someone who is obviously male presenting as female ?

Sad fact is that society is not accepting of things outside of the norm .... and "man in a frock"  just invites laughter and abuse.

Personally I have no wish to fight for the acceptance and rights of indiviuals who will never pass, I'm happy as I am, to be seen as a woman, and someone who will "woodwork" as time passes .... really sad but its where I am, and its the big divider within the TS community.

Successfull and convincing post-ops go their own way and dissapear off the register of "social acceptance" leaving the "unpassables" to represent the TS condition !

Would I go to a bar or restaurant in the company of an unpassable TS ?  No way am I secure enough to do that (!), just like my reason for not campaigning but "blending".

Laura x

This is of course nothing more than a rehashing of a locked thread. It's the same elitist argument and it's premise is false. That premise being, that one must be passable to live a happy life as a TS. Rather than get into the finer points of the argument, which of course we have already done, to no avail. I will simply refute it with a picture of me on a typical day.



Even though I am clearly not passable, I am well accepted in my community. I am never "sir'd", and I really get treated well. I interact with my community at the bank, the post office, the grocery store, Walmart, the local gas stations, 7-11, you name it. I really don't need to add anything else, because it proves the entire premise of this argument is incorrect, which is to say I should care if I am passable. Heck, 90% of the women out there are not passable.

I just don't care. The deal is this. If your happiness depends on what others think of you, than passing will be very important to you. If however, your happiness comes from within, it relies on no one. I don't need to be reassured I am a woman and I don't need others to see me that way. The only one that needs to see me that way, is me. And I do.

You know, by the time I was ten years old I made a very deliberate decision that I was not going to do what others want, just so they will like me. I don't need those kinds of friends. Having said that, I do recognize that most people really do need approval of society at large for their happiness. I guess that is why 50% of adults are on anti-depressants.

I chose to be happy. It depends on no one. I think people sense this. Once they know you don't care what they think, i.e. dressing how I please, they don't offer their opinions. No negative responses appears to be acceptance. So in the end, I get treated just as well as the passing TS, except I get the benefit of not ever having to worry if I pass or not.

Love always,
Elizabeth

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Kara



I offically ducked out once the thread became heated but....


I must say that the picture posted may not be the best one to prove your point.

I would not think you a man upon first glance. Passing does not mean "Underwear Model". You look like a typical soccer mom (no offence).
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Kate

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 06, 2007, 07:50:04 PM
Even though I am clearly not passable...

What??? Elizabeth... Elizabeth... and people say *I* have a problem seeing myself honestly, lol.

You're quite passable there dear ;)

~Kate~
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Elizabeth

Come on? I have no breasts and a classic male pot belly, not to mention one can vaguely see my beard line. I doubt very seriously it fools anyone. I just don't care. I feel happy and that's how I carry myself. I think that makes people feel ok about me. I only got the wig because of my wife, who said I was just too bald and attracted attention.

Better yet, of the crowd who would not be seen with a nonpassable TS, would you have lunch with me, in public, as I appear in that picture?

Love always,
Elizabeth
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Lori

Quote from: Elizabeth on July 06, 2007, 08:15:52 PM


Better yet, of the crowd who would not be seen with a nonpassable TS, would you have lunch with me, in public, as I appear in that picture?

Love always,
Elizabeth

I would. You pass way more than you think. And believe me I have been out with some that DID not pass. And you don't care nor are you expecting anything or have an in your face attitude. Your attitude is way better and you are happy with who you are. That makes a huge difference. Boobs don't make a woman btw. And I work with some pretty hairy GG's as well. 

On the other hand I'm different than you. I need to look like a woman. Everyone has different needs. Yours have been met and you are fine with who you are.

You chose to be happy and do what makes you happy. For some, it takes more than just choosing. Believe it or not I am slightly envious of you Elizabeth. I hope I can reach your mindset one day and find the peace you have.
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Elizabeth

This is totally not the response I was expecting, perhaps I am passing more than I think, but just don't notice because I don't care. I know I don't see me as being male, but I also want to be realistic. Compared with the women here that look passable, I am an easy mark. I really assumed it was my lack of caring what others think to how I am treated. Maybe I am more passable than I thought, but still nowhere near some of the girls that come here.

I hope my point is not lost, in that attitude is everything.

Love always,
Elizabeth
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Laura Eva B

Elizabeth, I can only answer by re-quoting my earlier post ....

Quote from: Laura Eva B on July 06, 2007, 07:20:33 PM
Passability is not a "holy grail" as you can be seen as a "TS woman", and still find strangers respect you, feel you are "brave" in what you're doing, and are really friendly. 

But the big issue is can you make new friends, find romance, build a social life, as a not "fully passable" TS woman ?  

Sure there are your old accquaintances, but what if they drift away, what if you "re-locate" for work or another reason ?  We have long lives ahead of us and we don't want to be solitary ....

Will you always be constrained to a kind of "TS ghetto", and be forced to seek to find support and friendship in the TS/TV/TG world .... not the "real" world ?

Guess by living a "happy life" I meant living the life I would have wanted if I'd been been born in the correct gender, or as second best living unambiguously as a woman. 

For some "happy life" might just mean happier than their pre-transitioned existence.  But if you don't pass, and really think you'll never pass, then you're making some really tough decisions about balancing "inner contentment" with the harsh reality of living for ever as a visible "TS woman" ?

Hard decisions ?

You appear happy as you are which is wonderful ... myself I feel my life is still in turmoil, I need to pass, it was a "pre-requisite" of my transitioning, and although I seem to be accepted without problems, I feel such frequent stress and anxiety over my appearance ...

http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Durham_01.jpg
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Cousins_02.jpg
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Xmas_Dance_02.jpg
http://uk.geocities.com/laura_eva_b/Malabar_Junct_01.jpg

I have enough issues over self confidence contrary to all evidence, how would I cope if I really felt I was being "read" day after day ?

Laura x
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Shana A

QuoteBetter yet, of the crowd who would not be seen with a nonpassable TS, would you have lunch with me, in public, as I appear in that picture?

Elizabeth,

I'd be proud to go out for lunch with you, or anyone else here, whether they pass or not. BTW, I think you look great! I don't care what people think, I don't try to pass as anything other than myself, someone of indeterminate gender. People see what they want to see. All I really care about is accepting myself for who I am, and I want to be able to safely live as who I am. Some folks here are saying, well, we don't live in utopia, so we have to pass. If that's what works for you, great. But this doesn't work for everyone here, and don't expect everyone to want the same thing.

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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melissa90299

Happiness comes from within. Being accepted not only as a woman but into the "inner circle" doesn't guarantee my happiness but it sure beats the alternative i.e. being tolerated while marginalized.

There is a wide gap between tolerance and acceptance.
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Rachael

'omg this isnt the same topic that got locked, but ill continue the arguement anyway you biggoted whatnots' etc
omg u gaiz, get over this... the passable folk arnt out to get the unpassable and vice versa, please take some care antidote and move along... nothing to see here... :police:
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Keira

Elizabeth, plenty of woman have "pot bellies" if they're menopausal (40 years +).

My mother has a very big one, you look a postmenopausal woman (though they would have more breasts, no question to go with their pot belly :-)!!

The problem is we compare ourselves to 16 years old underwear models, we point and say, that's a woman!! But, that's just 1/10000 women, what about the other 9999, there's a hell of a lot of variance there. That's the same reason so many TS get implants even when they have breasts that are in the GG average for their frame; they have an idea of what a woman is in their mind that probably has little bearing with what exists in the real world.

Rachael, If you don't care for this thread,  there are plenty of others.

I think that this subject if its discussed with care and sensibility is a worthwhile one.

At some point, EVERYONE believed that they'd be unpassable.
Why do you think I waited so long to do this!!

These days, I'm being harassed by a gang of 10-15 people (age 10 to 25) they congregate a duplex just in front of my house. I can hear their taunts right in my living room!!! Last time, when I came into my house, they even called their friends on their cell phone to see the man-woman... Heard it from a third party (a woman who's kind of my spy). They sent children right to my door, to ring it!!! They had 2 children in my entranceway and even one looking through my front window.

I felt afraid for the first time, called 911... But they retreated, and finally said to the dispatcher I didn't need the police... For now. To top it all off, I got sired on the phone by the dispatcher even though I told him I was transgendered... My voice was under tension understandably. This was the first time that had happened in 5-6 years!!!! It was a very bad day.

Everywhere else I know I'm very passable, yet I've got to live this, every day (one day can be "just" one insult or taunt, another I got to run the gauntlet of two different unrelated groups of bums), just around my house. I'm hoping that when the weather gets colder in september it will get better and I'll have peace again.

Of the many TS I know, none have seen this amount of hate and bigotry, they either live in the suburbs or in central city neighborhoods which are much more tolerant.

I'm looking into carying mace or pepper spray, you never know!!

So, being passable, doesn't stop bigotry from the bigots, like not being passable doesn't mean you won't be happy if you are in a supportive environment.



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Elizabeth

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 06, 2007, 11:16:51 PM
Happiness comes from within. Being accepted not only as a woman but into the "inner circle" doesn't guarantee my happiness but it sure beats the alternative i.e. being tolerated while marginalized.

There is a wide gap between tolerance and acceptance.

I guess it's that I would not want to be a part of an "inner circle" that would marginalize someone because they are TS. If I were, I would have to first, fool them into thinking I was one of them, then I would have to marginalize those who were like me, to stay in the "inner circle". This is way too big of a conflict for me. As to whether or not I am tolerated or accepted,that is a matter of how one views it, I suppose. I feel very accepted in my community. If this is in reality just tolerance, I am good with that. Either way, it's not my decision, so it's not worth concerning myself with.

"One can not control what others think, say or do, and it's wasted effort to try." I can however control what I think, say and do. I'll just spend my time and efforts on that. Making myself happy, instead of making others happy. I have already spent too much of my life doing that. I really just don't have the energy left to worry about what anyone thinks. It's their problem, not mine. It's a philosophical view about how I am going to live my life. The choice is clear. Live to please others or Live to please myself. Since I don't see anyone else lined up to live to please me, I guess I am going to have to do it, if I am to continue to find happiness.

I know others will not agree with this philosophical view and will find great peace of mind by fitting in with the "inner circle", even if that means condemning what they are and concealing it. Like I said, it's just a matter of personal choice. I won't deny that many can only find happiness in this way, I am just not one of them. I also believe there are others like me, so when someone makes a statement saying that there is only one way to find happiness, I have to disagree. Passing is not the only way to find happiness as a transsexual woman or man. It's one way. Another is self acceptance.

Love always,
Elizabeth
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melissa90299

QuoteI guess it's that I would not want to be a part of an "inner circle" that would marginalize someone because they are TS. If I were, I would have to first, fool them into thinking I was one of them, then I would have to marginalize those who were like me, to stay in the "inner circle".

OMG, here we go again. If Elizabeth feels like she is fooling people by presenting as a women, that is her thang. There is a fundamental disconnect here between what a lot of us feel and how Elizabeth feels. What many of us feel is that we are women, not someone who is presenting as a woman. We are not in denial. We know to the depths of our souls that we are women. It is not so much as physical as it is spiritual. Beyond that though and beyond passing is the fact that society judges women by their appearance. We could rant and rave about that all we want but that is a fact.

So for me, it is beyond passing, like most women, I attempt to be as attractive physically as is possible. Call me vain, but I know I look better than the vast majority of women my age. (My advantage is that a lot of women have "let go" by this stage in their life.)

Anyway, my appearance has improved  dramatically over the last year and a half, not only did I have the FFS, another year and a half of HRT, but I lost 68 pounds as well. (And I am still trying to knock off another 15) I can tell you that life is a whole lot easier living in a vehicle that is not only unequivocally female but attractive and sexy than one that is minimally passable. And it isn't about what others think, it is about the way I feel about myself.
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melissa90299

Yes, Gina, it takes a lot of work, not only work on transition issues but working one's butt off to get the money. It is a lot easier to put on a dress and makeup and tell the world, (and this is not to imply that anyone here is doing this) this is me, take it or leave it!

Anything that is worth anything requires a lot of effort to achieve.
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Shana A

QuoteIt is a lot easier to put on a dress and makeup and tell the world, (and this is not to imply that anyone here is doing this) this is me, take it or leave it!

I did that when I transitioned. No HRT, no SRS, and after a while of using it, no make up either. Just clothing, shaving and especially paying close attention to subtle cues in presentation. Having done that, I don't believe it's any easier than other routes. Cheaper, yes. That's all. For anyone to decide to live as who we are is hard work. Whatever method works for you, go for it.

QuoteI'm looking into carying mace or pepper spray, you never know!!

Not a bad idea Keira, those guys sound scary! And please be safe!

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Keira


Regina, some have so much financial problems that it can take 20 years to solve them
even if they are the most frugal person in the world!!

My best friend finished his studies (went into engineering 1.5 year, but didn't finish, then switched to a much less paying technical collarge degree) with 25K in debt and only now, 16 years later is he doing  his final payment!!!!!! You should see how he budgets, even if buys a $1 dollar sac a chip in a month (which he doesn't do often), he puts in his book.

He graduated like me, in the worse time to graduate, the early 90's (the economy was in the crapper in the province of Quebec then).

Paying a car with credit, he was so much on the edge for years (barely making enough to pay rent and eat and pay his university debt) that his credit was destroyed and took 8 years to recover. He could only borrow a limited amount of money at a high interest rate (which compounded his problem) the car he needed for work (he worked on the road as a environmental technician).

Finally, he changed career at 33 and took a 15K hit in salary to 22K, just to have the chance of having his university diploma paid by his new employer, took him 7 years getting a BA in business at night, working during the day, while supporting for his wife who has health issues and can't work and his daughter. He's just now making 50K (because he's got the degree) after decades of misery (even food baskets).

So, you tell me, if that guy had gender dysphoria, where on earth could he find the money, and what would happen to him if he found himself unemployable because of being a TS for some time!!!

50K, 20K, whatever K, for whatever transition expenses you need, if your in this bad financial situation for a decade and your need to pass in society to be happy (not all do, such as Elisabeth, but a lot undoubtably do), then you will be in a terrible situation if you don't.

If even worse, you are in an area where you cannot really live a decent life without passing (Even my neighborhood, in liberal Canada, is very far from ideal unless you've got a tough spine) forcing you to move away breaking the little ties you have in the hope of a little community acceptance, then its FUBAR, and I just hope this person will find a shoulder somewhere to lean on!!!

All of this is in Canada, where if you are in real dire straights, you still get some federal financial support and your health care is paid. In the US, I don't even want to imagine the incredible stress of living on the edge like that, its no wonder why the poor are in such poor health.
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melissa90299

keira, the guy in your example made an awful lot of bad choices to put himself in such a bad financial position. As I pointed out on the other thread, virtually anything can be accomplished if one sets her mind to it. If one has a mindset that it can't be done, then most certainly that prophecy will come true.

Everyone's situation is different but there is always a path.
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Keira

Melissa, he came from a dirt poor family, one parent schizophrenic, his wife also comes from a dirt poor family with child abuse and health problems, its a miracle he even went to university in the first place, I'd say not even 1% from where he lived went to university or any school after high school.

He had no one to support him ever and he had to take care of his wife from the age of 20 on.
If bad choice you mean he should not have maried her!!!! Well, some take love and loyalty very seriously, everybody deserves love, even those such as his wife who had many issues.

I didn't even tell you he had an infection to the heart 10 years ago (in the US, with the type of job he had (no insurance for sure) he would have been ruined for life, but somehow he survived).

Many, as you, has judged him harshly, but that's the old US mentality that if you're in doo doo you deserve it. That's why there is so little support for the poor in the US.

I don't believe that at all. You can make all the right moves and still not succeed in life. That's a tragedy all right!!! Those people deserve all the compassion in the world.

I'm sorry to hijack this somewhat. It just grates me to say that everybody can just have the money to transition and if they don't have it, its all their fault. Being in contact with him, and doing volounteer work, I know that this is NOT the case. He's out of the woods now, but for a long time, it could have gone either way and that's the case with many people living on the edge of life, of a financial abyss.





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Godiva

Keire:

I tried to PM you,but could not figure it out, and hope I do not embarrass you by saying publicly; You are brillent and beautiful in many ways. I wish I knew you in person as a friend. I truly admire how hard the fellow worked at caring for his family and getting an education. I hope to get to meet him some day.


Godiva
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melissa90299

I am not judging him, I don't even know him. Not everyone succeeds even with all the motivation and positive energy in the world sometimes it takes a little luck too. OTOH virtually everyone who wallows in self-pity and negative thinking will not reach her goals.

The American Dream that everyone can amass a fortune is, of course, a myth. But we aren't talking about a fortune here, we are really talking a pittance,e specially when banks in the US are wiling to give credit cards to practically anyone who is breathing.
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