A moral obligation to tell?

[Keira]

I don't think its a moral obligation, for me its all practical.
I don't want to be killed or maimed and lying about it increases the chance of this.

My only problem is when to tell, if its casual sex, or a relationship that you know will be short (during a vacation for example). Why would I tell if there is no way he'll know and he just wants sex also.

For a long term relationship, when do you tell? First date, third date, etc.
In modern relationships, sex or high intimity comes pretty quickly and
that means I'd have to tell early if I go by my security first precept.
But, I don't want to share this with a quasi stranger before he even knows me!!
I'm all for honesty, but in time; I feel my practical security concerns are robbing me from
the possibilty of devellopping a normal relationship before dumping this layer unto it.

I do feel its something I'd rather say months into the relationship rather than right away,
and its just the societal undercurrent of homophoby that forces my hand and I resent that.

[Dorothy]

I wouldnt.  Not for what Nero has described.

[asiangurliee]

For those of you who answered "there is no moral obligation" I would like you to take a second and "flip the script" and put yourself in that awkward situation....
what if you sleep with or had a date with a man who actually turned out was and still is biologically in some way... still a woman? wouldn't that bother you the least bit or at the very least put the idea in your head that "well if they keep this from me what other secretes are they keeping, like there HIV status, hepatitus, etc." ..

wouldn't that make you even the least bit uncomfotable?

Too me... and this is by all means is my lil opinion and im not being judgemental but rather inquizative.....
How can you be so assured of who you are and what direction (or SEX rather) you want to be in life and not feel some sense of morality to be totally honest?

Its "cute" and lovely to be that "real" that no one can tell unless you tell them what you are but at the same time isn't that "realness" truly defined as "BEING REAL"?
or has this girl had one too many cocktail at happy hour?

I love trans guys, I do not judge them at all. But if they still have a vagina, I would discover that during a sexual intercourse. I would be suprised, but I wouldn't be mad in any way whatsoever.


I agree with Regina, I do not believe we have a moral duty to reveal our history, but that does not mean we should not tell.

[Elizabeth]

Nero,

This is a tough one. I have been thinking about it since you posted it.  I mean, for the most part I beleive that a person has a right to know. On the other hand we don't tell casual acquaintances personal things about ourselves. So I have two stories to tell.

When I was 19 I was playing late at night in my music studio, which was the entire upper floor of an old department store. It was about 3:00 am and me and my drummer were just jamming when a good friend of ours entered our studio crying uncontrollably. Between sobs he was saying that he had cheated on his wife. "with a dude". He was very distraught. Apparently he was making out with an attractive young woman, that me and my drummer knew to be a transsexual prostitute. He had been attracted to her and made his move not knowing who she was and after making out with her in his car for a while, he apparently reached down to get a "feel" and got more than he was expecting.

He was very upset that she had not told him upfront that she was a preop transsexual. To him, this was having gay sex. Of course we assured him he was not gay and that she was quite attractive and very passable and no fault attached itself to him. So? did he have a right to know or is it "buyer beware"?

The other story is about one of my nieces. She was born with six toes on one foot. At age three, she had it removed and to see her foot now, one would never know she had six toes on one foot. Does she have an moral obligation to tell everyone she dates, even casually, that she used to have six toes?

In the end, I believe this is a question that only each person can answer for themselves. What feels right to them. Because I believe it's a personal choice, I must say there is no "moral" obligation to tell, for those who don't feel one. There is a "moral" obligation for those who do feel a moral obligation to tell.

Simple, we don't all share the same morality, so there can not be a blanket answer.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[mavieenrose]

Again this is a hypothetical question. If safety were not an issue, and this was a random sexual encounter with a person whose name you didn't know, whom you never expected to see again not a serious relationship.
Does one have the moral obligation to tell?
Like in Gwen Araujo's situation - she was at a party and had oral sex with a few guys. Aside from the fact that it wasn't a smart move and she was murdered for it - was she morally wrong to engage in a sexual act with those men without informing them of her birth gender?

Though I have to admit to not really being one for random sexual encounters myself (heavy petting's fine, but no more than this if I'm not in a relationship that's been going on for at least a few weeks...) no I wouldn't feel morally obliged to tell someone in this type of situation. 

If we'll never see each other again, there's no safety issue and we don't even know each other's names (well, this really does seem like a very hypothetical situation to me...) then no I wouldn't feel the need to tell someone and wouldn't feel morally bad for not saying anything. It would be a simple case of two consenting adults giving and receiving pleasure, with no strings and no emotional attachment...

If tonight I met someone in town, we drank more than we should have, ended up in a hotel room somewhere, and then went on to... well you know what, spent the night together, then parted our ways the next morning, then I would feel no need to say a thing.  He'd never guess my life history (previous experiences with sexual partners have proved this to me....) and I'd not be looking to build a meaningful relationship with him, so why rock the boat?

MVER XXX

[Fae]

When I was 19 I was playing late at night in my music studio, which was the entire upper floor of an old department store. It was about 3:00 am and me and my drummer were just jamming when a good friend of ours entered our studio crying uncontrollably. Between sobs he was saying that he had cheated on his wife. "with a dude". He was very distraught. Apparently he was making out with an attractive young woman, that me and my drummer knew to be a transsexual prostitute. He had been attracted to her and made his move not knowing who she was and after making out with her in his car for a while, he apparently reached down to get a "feel" and got more than he was expecting.

He was very upset that she had not told him upfront that she was a preop transsexual. To him, this was having gay sex. Of course we assured him he was not gay and that she was quite attractive and very passable and no fault attached itself to him. So? did he have a right to know or is it "buyer beware"?

I feel bad for both parties, since I would imagine the TS woman was as distraught as your friend.  In that kind of situation she probably should have said something before they got too physical since she was pre-op, regardless of how well she passed.  Do you know if he physically hurt her upon getting "more than he was expecting" or if he just left her distraught and upset, but didn't harm her physically?  I hope for the latter. 

In the end, I believe this is a question that only each person can answer for themselves. What feels right to them. Because I believe it's a personal choice, I must say there is no "moral" obligation to tell, for those who don't feel one. There is a "moral" obligation for those who do feel a moral obligation to tell.

I agree, but I'd also like to add something in relation to your first story.  If the TS individual is pre-op then she does have an obligation to tell prior to any sexual encounter, for her own personal safety so as not to risk harm from the other party(s) involved.  To not tell just goes against common sense. 

If she is post-op, then I believe it is up to her and her own personal morals.

[Jeannette]

I honestly don't know.  Maybe.

[Lisbeth]

I'm not talking serious relationships here, just dating and random sexual encounters.

I'm not going to talk about moral obligation here.  I'm going to talk about the way my psyche works. 

"Random sexual encounters" don't work for me.  Or for alot of people, I assume.  Before I can have sex with someone, I need to feel a certain level of attraction for that person.  And if I allow it to happen, it always results in an emotional connection with that person.  And then there is a serious chance that I am falling in love with that person.

Now, if that happens first and I tell the person second (or he/she finds out some other way), I run a serious risk of ending up with a broken heart.  And selfishly, I don't want that, so I perfer to have that person know before I fall in love.

[Elizabeth]

...
Do you know if he physically hurt her upon getting "more than he was expecting" or if he just left her distraught and upset, but didn't harm her physically?  I hope for the latter. 
...

No, he did not harm her in anyway. He was embarrassed and ashamed of himself, first for cheating on his wife and secondly for not knowing what he was getting himself into.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[cindianna_jones]

Immediately after my surgery, I did have a few relationships where I did not tell anyone.  I felt no moral obligation... after all, we were having immoral sex!    In the beginning, I had no concern over it.  As time progressed, I became better grounded in what I believed a relationship should be for me.  I knew that my past was part of my life and I could never learn to ignore it.

When I fell in love, prior to any heavy petting or intimacy, I did tell my lovers.  Both accepted me.  Both offered to marry me.  One was a VP for a small start up company called Cisco. The other was a poor construction worker with nothing.  Guess who I chose?  Yup, "money ain't everything"!  We've been very happy together and we will never be parted for any reason except death.  It's been the best 17 years of my life.

Cindi

[Fae]

"Random sexual encounters" don't work for me.  Or for alot of people, I assume.  Before I can have sex with someone, I need to feel a certain level of attraction for that person.  And if I allow it to happen, it always results in an emotional connection with that person.  And then there is a serious chance that I am falling in love with that person.

Same goes for me, there are four things I need before I will engage in a sexual act with someone: Love, Trust, Honesty, and Passion.  Sounds picky, but that's the kind of girl I am 

...
Do you know if he physically hurt her upon getting "more than he was expecting" or if he just left her distraught and upset, but didn't harm her physically?  I hope for the latter. 
...

No, he did not harm her in anyway. He was embarrassed and ashamed of himself, first for cheating on his wife and secondly for not knowing what he was getting himself into.

Love always,
Elizabeth

That's really good.  I've heard too many stories of women in our community getting hurt once they were found out during or after a sexual encounter.  It's good to hear a story where that didn't happen, but like I said I still feel bad for both parties because it must have been emotionally painful.

[Buffy]

Errr Yes and No

I have had some casual flings over the past few years, with men, who I didn't tell and they never knew. To be honest most guys are just focused on getting in your pants in a quick fling and not much else.

However, I would look to tell any person that involvement involves beyond a fling. Trust, respect, truthfullness and to be loved for the person I am, are my requirement for any long term relationship.

If that person cannot handle the truth, then they are not my partner to be.

That will be their loss.

Buffy

[Elizabeth]

Immediately after my surgery, I did have a few relationships where I did not tell anyone.  I felt no moral obligation... after all, we were having immoral sex!    In the beginning, I had no concern over it.  As time progressed, I became better grounded in what I believed a relationship should be for me.  I knew that my past was part of my life and I could never learn to ignore it.

When I fell in love, prior to any heavy petting or intimacy, I did tell my lovers.  Both accepted me.  Both offered to marry me.  One was a VP for a small start up company called Cisco. The other was a poor construction worker with nothing.  Guess who I chose?  Yup, "money ain't everything"!  We've been very happy together and we will never be parted for any reason except death.  It's been the best 17 years of my life.

Cindi

:)AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Fae]

I've heard too many stories of women in our community getting hurt once they were found out during or after a sexual encounter.  It's good to hear a story where that didn't happen, but like I said I still feel bad for both parties because it must have been emotionally painful.

The term "found out" implies that they were somehow "fake women." I have a big problem with that thinking. As I view it, it's a form of internalized self-hatred and transphobia. Honestly is just as important to me as it is to you, but honestly motivated by shame and colored by societies' ignorant view of what being trans is... no, I don't think that's healthy. Again, much of the hurt and shame surrounding "disclosure" comes from our culture's and our own transphobia. Were we to really deal with how we feel inside about ourselves and experience ourselves as women, not a facsimile, then much of the shame and fear we experience around this would be hugely diminished. Just my little opinion.

Gina M.

I'm sorry Gina, I'm still getting used to the vocabulary so as not to offend anyone.  Sometimes it's a little hard because all of us in the community have different views, and I do believe that as transpeople we often fight with ourselves and each other, in addition to society and I wish that wasn't so.  I wasn't trying to imply that those women were in any way "fake," what I meant to say was that those women were found not to have been born genetic women.  None of us have to feel ashamed about being trans (even though society tells us we must)...

I still think that being honest is very important, to me anyway.

[Suzy]

This is indeed a tricky issue, but I do still feel we have a moral obligation to tell, yes, with all of the baggage that this terminology implies.  If a person does not want to have a physical relationship with us, then I do not believe that what I am about to say necessarily applies. 

In the world in which we live, I would want to know the honest truth about my sexual partner's history.  Life and death sometimes depends on it.  I'm not saying that a TG person is any more likely to contract a disease than a non-TG.  In fact, I suspect (but don't have any statistics one way or the other) that the truth may be just the opposite because of sexual performance issues some of us deal with.  However, we still live in a world where honesty in sexual relationships is expected, and is arguably more important than ever.  I want to know about my partner and believe my partner has a right to know about me.

Honesty is part of maturity.  I will never be ashamed to be a woman.  Far from it.  And I am the last one who would ever want to put a Trans sign on my head and advertise to the world.  Sex, though, is an optional activity.  I hope we have learned in our society that it is not shameful, but that it does require a certain level of respect for our partner.  If that respect is not returned, whatever may be our history, I hope that we have enough respect for ourselves to walk away from the encounter.  Those who want to have sex with a partner as a validation for their own person will invariably become ensnared by that need for outside validation.  If we cannot tell the truth to our sexual partners it means that we have already rejected ourselves.

I believe that it is true, especially in the TG world, that we are so afraid of rejection.  We want acceptance at all costs, and somewhere we got this idea that secrecy will aid in achieving that acceptance.  I know I am guilty of that.  But in the end, we have still not been accepted if we let the person believe a lie about us.  Some imaginary person has been accepted and we have been cheated of the acceptance that likely could have been ours if we have been truthful.  If we do believe (and personally, I do) that a TG woman is every bit a woman, why would we not want to celebrate that with a person we might want to become intimate with?  If they walk away (or worse), they are not someone who is worthy of our bodies, especially given the extreme steps some of us must take to make them correct.

In short, if a person accepts herself (or himself) then it should not be impossible to be honest.  If we cannot be honest perhaps we are not mature enough to be having sex.  It is only within the context of honesty that sex becomes a meaningful expression between two caring individuals. 

Peace,
Kristi

[Keira]

Kristi, all that's well and good, but would you want to share
this before kissing... First date, second, etc.

I think that this goes beyond honesty about sexual history,
who tells there sexual history in the first dates.

We, because of homophobia, have to be guilted in thinking
what we delay telling (not even hiding) is much worse than
anything else that can be hidden.

It often makes me sick to think that I'd have to disclose to
people I barely know, like I had some very bad disease or
I was so infamous that they would be bound to find out
about me sooner or later.

[Suzy]

Kristi, all that's well and good, but would you want to share this before kissing... First date, second, etc.

Keira,

Great question.  I don't claim to have the definitive answer.  Personally, I do not put those things in the same category as a sexual relationship.

As you can probably tell, I am not one interested in casual sex or one night stands.  The stakes are WAY too high.  So for me it would be pretty evident when full disclosure would need to take place.  And chances are, a wonderful trusting relationship would cause disclosure before anything physical would necessitate it.

I would never disclose to someone I barely know, primarily because I wouldn't be having sex with them.

Peace,
Kristi

[Shana A]

The term "found out" implies that they were somehow "fake women." I have a big problem with that thinking. As I view it, it's a form of internalized self-hatred and transphobia. Honestly is just as important to me as it is to you, but honesty motivated by shame and colored by societies' ignorant view of what being trans is... no, I don't think that's healthy. Again, much of the hurt and shame surrounding "disclosure" comes from our culture's and our own transphobia. Were we to really deal with how we feel inside about ourselves and experience ourselves as women, not a facsimile, then much of the shame and fear we experience around this would be hugely diminished. Just my little opinion.

Gina,

I agree that internalized transphobia and shame can be an underlying aspect beneath someone's willingness for disclosure or not. I'd personally feel the need to be honest with any potential partner, not this is currently an issue for me. I've been with my partner for 11 years, and am not looking for anyone else . FWIW, my partner already knew about me being trans when we met, as we met through a mutual friend.

One important issue to bring up in this discussion though is that transpeople are often murdered or violently attacked because of who we are, and so I can envision situations in which someone might not feel safe to disclose hir status.

zythyra

[Keira]

What I meant Kristi is that for many, not divulging before kissing (full mouth on mouth, not a peck) is in the same category morally as not telling before sex.
Kissing usually happen pretty early even in the most reserved of relationships.

I mean, where does it stop, is simply dating that guy without telling him in a sense dishonest because he would never have gone out with me otherwise and thus I "tricked" him.

Anyway I look at it, I don't feel good about disclosing early.
I will only do it for safety's sake that I do so, but I resent tht homophia
forces me to do so, I would have preferred disclosing later.

[Suzy]

Anyway I look at it, I don't feel good about disclosing early.
I will only do it for safety's sake that I do so, but I resent tht homophia
forces me to do so, I would have preferred disclosing later.

On this point we are in full agreement.  I hope what we do now will make this kind of action unnecessary in the not-too-distant future.

Kristi