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so are you a woman with out the operation

Started by evecrook, December 20, 2013, 06:00:14 PM

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Katie

Umm my post never said anything about surgery whatsoever. I am sorry that your one of the people that cant read what someone types. I really am sorry.
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ashrock

Honestly, I totally am not offended in the least.  Just saying it wasn't pertinent to the question
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Miss_Bungle1991

Quote from: Katie on December 20, 2013, 09:25:03 PM
Umm my post never said anything about surgery whatsoever. I am sorry that your one of the people that cant read what someone types. I really am sorry.

You have been making your point quite clear. You can shove your fake apology.
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Tori

Well noname, if we are picking nits, it would be more like,how well one fits into society's collective and individual expctations.

Words...

Good discussion.


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Chaos

this question is set in stone by society.following a common path that everyone 'must' abide by,in order to remain within its acceptance but couldn't another ask such thinkers 'do you feel human? Or do you 'know' you are human?' The physical form has been the center of society's attention,accepting what fits an 'image' while the rest is cast to the side but doesn't being 'human' have many parts? Do are fingers help to grasp and hold tightly? And our toes give us balance and stability but what of the heart and mind? Do they not lead us,allow us to see and feel but also to build character? Find for yourself,your own path but may it be honest and not one carved by the masses.
All Thing's Come With A Price...
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Jenna Marie

Yes! I don't think anyone is qualified to judge this but the woman herself - if you think you are, you are.

As I said elsewhere today, my "sex change" was the day I changed my sex marker on all my legal documentation. The day I became a woman was the day I decided I was one (but I'm OK with the fact that no one else treated me that way until I told/showed them that, I don't expect telepathy).

GRS was a finishing touch put on my body so I was comfortable with *myself.* It's no one's business but mine, my wife's, and occasionally a doctor's. I still refuse to tell random people what's in my pants, b/c if they want to determine how to treat me based on that... I don't want anything to do with them.
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izzy

I agree some people just will never see you as a women no matter what regardless of what you do.   If surgery is what defines someone than it just superficial.
Being trans has nothing to do with surgery
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Devlyn

Quote from: nonameyet on December 20, 2013, 09:04:11 PM
@ katie. since gender roles are an evolutionary function brought on by hunter gatherer needs and functions and probably accentuated with things like jewelry and clothing as a form of marking individual women as territory ( no source but seriously. think about it. )its irrelevant anyway. were all assigning meaning and purpose to something that is purely evolutionary and to throw venom into the conversation is unnecessary.

though you arent the only one and i feel like maybe you were joking.
also. she was expressing her opinion. as a pre op ( maybe never op) chick i can identify with that viewpoint. the venom isnt necessary from anyone. though its refreshing to see open opinions without the dampening of harsh points come on. be blunt. but keep it friendly. if we cant even get along whats the point in a discussion  forum. i think thats part of the reason my topic got locked. i dont even wanna check
@ ash actually its spot on. good point made with a bad metaphor



@ tori
i think it has more to do now with whats expected of you by society. not how they view you.

Just a minor point, we aren't a discussion forum here, we are a support forum. There is a world of difference.  Sure, we can discuss things, but if it's hurting someone, then, no, we can't discuss it.  The support always takes precedent.

Hugs, Devlyn
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Jamie D

Quote from: Katie on December 20, 2013, 08:36:49 PM
Thinking I am going to get five or so t shirts that say "I am a zebra", the next one will say "I am a turtle", the next one will say "I am a rino", ect., ect. I will wear them on different days and  I will walk around and tell people that I am that animal that my shirt says I am. Remember I am whatever I think I am because its in my head. Never mind that not one person will believe me if I tell them I am a zebra. LOL.

Crap come to think of it........since we are whatever we say we are why the hell do we even transition? I mean we can present to the world a boy and tell everyone we are a woman.....It would save a ton of money and hard work.

Remember is all in your head!

Katie

The reply to that idea is found in this blog post:

11. "I'm actually a feline trapped in a human's body. Can I get can surgery to make me a cat?"

Also known as the "I think I'm funny, but I'm not," answer. Generally used by guys who watch South Park.

When people use this argument, they assume that transgender people are mentally ill (they're not), assume it's a delusion that can be cured (wrong), and ignores one key fact. People can naturally be mentally hard wired to identify as male or female. Sometimes the wiring and the equipment don't synch up during development. We have 40-plus years of neuroscience research basically telling us gender identity and body image are written early on in development, and sometimes they don't match.

People, however, do not naturally identify as a cat, or other non-human animal.


Myths About Gender Confirmation Surgery
by Brynn Tannehill
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Heather

A surgery can't make you a man or a woman either you are one or your not simple as that. Give a man SRS and he's still a male at his core. I really don't get this whole idea that SRS makes you a woman because really it doesn't and no surgeon can ever confirm who you are at your core. If you don't consider yourself a woman before the surgery you sure won't be one after the surgery. ;)
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Tori

So, legally you can be a woman without SRS, depending on where you live.

Mentally, you can be female when you decide to be female.

Socially, it depends on other people's perceptions.

If you hit the trifecta, you are stealthy.


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noeleena

Hi,

This concerns myself and no one else,though it does refer to females  natal born and im part of that detail,

To be a woman . most females have the potential to become women it's there  and most of us do.

after we are born we will develop  likes and dislikes and we know what its like being female as we get older we grow in prep for woman hood and to have and carry our own children we bond with our baby and of cause feed and nurture our child , the key word is ...GROW.... into being a woman,

Now some of us for many different reasons can not bear children, im one of those, so am i thrown out and not accepted as a normal woman even though part of myself is female from birth,

we need to be carefull in what we say i did not just become a woman over night surgery has nothing at all to do with who we are  or meds drugs or HRT. im on those because im a menoprausal woman and i need them,

It has taken myself a few years to grow  as to becoming a woman as any normal female would .

Meds drugs or any other compound synthic or herbal meds can not make one a woman .

your body has to be inline with your own hormones as mine are to  effect changes that are both male and female like myself as being intersexed, my body did effect a few changes, and i know of others who this has happened in a more pronounced way,

Each person can say what they like about them self's or how they see themself''s its not up to me to say other wise, unless they are lieing .

Im a woman because i have grown into being one and my whole being has effected that, with out meds or drugs Now some of us do have surgerys iv had quite a few, to correct what was needed to be done, it did not change who i am,  my mind  and my thinking  has allways been female .

Im not a feminine female far from it more
=  eine hart arbeitende Frau, und eine m'a'nnliche seiht mit dem  gehen =.

a hard working woman and a more masculine  look to go with that,

Remember you have to grow ......Into being....... a woman and like those of us female's it takes time,

...noeleena...
Hi. from New Zealand, Im a woman of difference & intersex who is living life to the full.   we have 3 grown up kids and 11 grand kid's 6 boy's & 5 girl's,
Jos and i are still friends and  is very happy with her new life with someone.
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nikkit72

Ok, so, let me get this right,

Your all women apart from the FTM's that may have posted. So, this marks gender. Woman for MTF and Man for FTM ?

Some are Female and others are Male in the plug and socket sense which marks sex. post op /pre op whatever.

All are male (MTF's) or female (FTM's) in a biological XY XX sense.


This is only three definitions. Along with all the other trans this, that and the other, no wonder the "normal" people get annoyed with us. We do not seem to be able to agree on what is what amongst ourselves.

I'm off to get inter-species reassignment surgery councelling. This is getting silly...
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Teela Renee

Im technically pre, but I count myself as a woman, the social security office has be marked as a female, my drivers liense says im female, my birth certificate because the others got changed got changed, so only in biology am I male.
RedNeck girls have all the fun 8)
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Ltl89

Personally, I feel you can identify whatever way you want, but I won't feel complete until I fully transition (SRS included).  It's not needed for everyone, but it's an important part for me.  Still, I identify as female despite my current pre-op situation and think the same right should be granted to non-ops as well.  And I like to add that I laugh at those who invalidate the experiences of intersex people or those born with birth defects by saying you must have a or b.  It's ridiculous when you think about it because there are many people with birth defects that don't come out and advertise it.  Are they not their identified gender?  So why judge pre-ops and non-ops.

Lastly, don't get riled up when people try to invalidate your experience.  Some people are angry and put themselves in higher regard than others in order to protect their own fragile ego.  When it happens, it says a lot more about them than you.   
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KabitTarah

Quote from: Willow on December 20, 2013, 06:04:19 PM
It clearly depends on your perception of yourself. I'm pre-everything, and only dress part time, but I consider myself a woman.

Me too.

HECK... I even extend this to the past. I was ALWAYS a woman/girl. I was born with a female gender and male sex.
~ Tarah ~

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Donna Elvira

#36
Evecrook seems to be feeding us with a least one metaphysical question per day, keeping all the deep thinkers here very busy... ;)

My own slant on this one is that I have mostly given up asking myself the question. I identify totally as a woman, I am identified by others as a woman, shortly I will also be  legally identified as a woman (including change to my birth certificate) and for almost all practical purposes, I don't really need to take it any further than that.

The "almost" in the previous statement nevertheless has its importance. I have already had extensive facial surgery which helped me greatly in being identified by others as a woman and it also helped me greatly in terms of self perception. For as long as I could see a man looking back at me in the mirror there was a serious disconnect between what I felt deep down inside me and what I was seeing.

For me, there is some of that with bottom surgery too but from a practical standpoint it is not nearly as important to me as the face , the mirror of the soul, with vastly more impact on how I interact with others than what I have between my legs.

I will never be an XX female but my present reality, without genital surgery, is that I am a woman, happily so as, for now I simply don't have the time to do SRS.

As it happens my whole approach to transitioning has been very emperical, based on practical experience. Since I had no doubt about my inner identity, being able to sucessfully exist socially as a woman was the driving idea behind everything I did and since I'm not into guys, SRS was not and is not top on the list of priorities.
My 2c's worth.

Donna
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Riley Skye

I was always a girl, that is how I always I felt about myself. Just because you are pre-hormones, surgery or don't even dress as how you identify does not in anyway discredit who you are and your identity. We are all the gender we define and view ourselves as. The reason why we dress as our desired gender, go through hormone therapy, surgery, voice training, etc is to bring our bodies in line with our internal gender. I'm just as much of that genderqueer lesbian girl now as I was last year and even the year before, I just am now more open to myself. Don't let what anyone says get you down!
Love and peace are eternal
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Eva Marie

I see SRS as a personal choice that has nothing to do with the determination of whether or not you are a woman. Seeing it as a necessary procedure to validate a person as a woman smacks of an arrogant, elitist, entitled, narrow "trannier than thou" attitude.

Not everyone who desires SRS is in a position to be able to have the procedure, and some people don't see it as a necessary component of their transition. Are these people any less of a woman? I don't think so.

By all means if it is important to you and you are in a position to be able to have it done - do it. But castigating people that haven't had it done shows a lack of understanding.
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Nero

Re: so are you a woman with out the operation

For the purposes of this website, YES. Are there people out there (or even here) who disagree? Sure. But there are people out there who say you're not a woman even with the operation.

If you need an operation to be a woman, then you're not a woman.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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