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what would you guess the percentage is

Started by stephaniec, January 08, 2014, 10:25:11 AM

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amber1964

Trans men do generally pass better. My therapist is a trans man and you would never guess anything else about him. Testosterone overpowers estrogen. Period. But, they dont have the lower cost and success rates with GRS that trans women do. So we all have our own struggles. My therapist who is nearly 60 just underwent GRS and he said to me that one of the things he was looking forward to was the chance to pee standing up, just like other men. I never thought about it before but he has been transitioed 40 years and having to use a stall when other men use the urinals.
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stephaniec

Quote from: Catherine Sarah on January 08, 2014, 11:10:54 AM
Hi stephaniec,

With respects to your question regarding percentages, from my experience I'm inclined to think about 5% or less. Blending in, comes from within. If your gender is not expressed from within, irrespective of what you do externally doesn't work.

And yes it does matter. It matters a great deal with regard to creating the necessary self respect, self confidence needed to express yourself completely, with integrity.

Huggs
Catherine
What I was tying to get at as with my own self awareness is that I've been a woman since birth ,but I've had the wrong plumbing as another member said, I'm older and transitioning regardless that being said I'm  definitely not going to look any thing near what my avatar looks like, Sure I would love to look like Greta who wouldn't. What I'm saying about myself is that I need to do this , Yes it can turn out painful because of uncaring reactions from others ,but for myself I'll do my best and let the chips fall. The integrity comes from me knowing this is who I am.
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Paulagirl

The problem with percentages is interpreting them. If you can walk by 100 people in a food court, and no one throws their lunch at you, did you pass 100%?
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innainka

Oh my, it had been a long time since I had been here, and this is the first subject I stumble upon, lol.

Passing?

Or perhaps "being", "saturated", "intrinsically"

How important?
in my own mere perspective I am alive because of it. When I set out on this journey of journeys, the opportunity to become a woman seen in the mirrors edge of societal scrutiny was rather delusional at best. Starting from a bloky body building male of 43 presented countless impossibilities. Yet, delusional me never gave up. A survivor of an attempt, I didn't value life any more then in becoming without any excuses, entirely encompassing, native, true to the extend of my being, a WOMAN.

I have, or at least I feel I had. My peer social circles, those who got to know me since about two years ago, know of me as a woman, never, ever, had there been any question nor suggestion of otherwise questionable intrusion. Those who are simphatetic to my cause who had known me since way back do know of my past, and yet they too see me and know me to be the genuine and true, a woman I always was, however in hiding!

So to answer this complicated question:
I believe that there are way greater number of those who had transition, who never gave in to the pain and sorrow of strive, who pushed the boundaries of relentless pursuit and who now are just another woman out there. How could you tell, you can't!!

And how important was it for me:
Well, lets just say this, had this rebirth into true being wasn't successful, I would not write this here post, I would had been long gone into the statistics of how grave this condition is.
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stephaniec

Quote from: innainka on January 09, 2014, 02:29:17 PM
Oh my, it had been a long time since I had been here, and this is the first subject I stumble upon, lol.

Passing?

Or perhaps "being", "saturated", "intrinsically"

How important?
in my own mere perspective I am alive because of it. When I set out on this journey of journeys, the opportunity to become a woman seen in the mirrors edge of societal scrutiny was rather delusional at best. Starting from a bloky body building male of 43 presented countless impossibilities. Yet, delusional me never gave up. A survivor of an attempt, I didn't value life any more then in becoming without any excuses, entirely encompassing, native, true to the extend of my being, a WOMAN.

I have, or at least I feel I had. My peer social circles, those who got to know me since about two years ago, know of me as a woman, never, ever, had there been any question nor suggestion of otherwise questionable intrusion. Those who are simphatetic to my cause who had known me since way back do know of my past, and yet they too see me and know me to be the genuine and true, a woman I always was, however in hiding!

So to answer this complicated question:
I believe that there are way greater number of those who had transition, who never gave in to the pain and sorrow of strive, who pushed the boundaries of relentless pursuit and who now are just another woman out there. How could you tell, you can't!!

And how important was it for me:
Well, lets just say this, had this rebirth into true being wasn't successful, I would not write this here post, I would had been long gone into the statistics of how grave this condition is.
I think that's exactly what it's about
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Northern Jane

When I had SRS in 1974, 'pass-ability' was a requirement and the first meeting with the surgeon was more like an audition in that the surgeon would not perform the surgery unless he felt you could integrate easily into women's life. Fair or not, that's the way it was and you were expected to do just that, integrate and 'go stealth'. Except for the very few who were outed by the media, nobody retained the trans prefix - why would you? - a normal life is what we all wanted - and the vast majority achieved that.

Being at the point of being 'passable', for me, had a lot to do with genetics and 'attitude'. I was fortunate to have never really 'masculinized' and started hormones early (13, when I could get them). I also grew up with the conviction that I WAS a girl and naturally gravitated to the feminine side of the spectrum so between my physical characteristics and mannerisms/disposition people I didn't know often assumed I was a girl (and people who did know otherwise I think were just confused LOL!) By the time I started college, I simply couldn't pass as a guy even if I tried so by the time SRS became available (age 24) integration was easy because I was already there. With SRS completed, as far as I was concerned, I WAS a girl - there wasn't anything else - you were either one or the other! - and that confidence and comfort in my gender seemed to totally deflect any question.

I KNOW I had an easy time of it (a lot easier than trying to pass as a boy!) but I knew of others who were not so fortunate. By physical characteristics or build (very masculine) or by 'attitude', there were those who had little hope of passing and were therefore excluded from surgery, those who probably never had any trouble passing as male. I felt bad for them but their life's experiences were so different from my own that it was not something I could identify with any more than they could identify with mine.

In my 40 years since SRS I have seen a lot of very (physically) masculine women who could probably "pass for trans" but usually their attitude and deportment and their confidence in their own gender erases any doubt about their being cis-female.

Just my ramblings on the subject ..... ;)
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Joanna Dark

I think attitude and mannerisms definitely play a part but people judge by physical characteristics. I don't care how masculine you are if you are 5'6, 120 lbs. and have 34D boobs and a really pretty face, you will be gendered female. If you are on the border of passing and your face is more andro than femme, then confidence will play a bigger part. I have zero confidence because I hate my itty bitty beard shadow. Yet I still pass to almost everyone and I also have really short hair. Maybe I'm just lucky as someone said before me, but really do you think it was lucky being left out of every single male-oriented game or activity throughout my life and being beat up for being and looking feminine. Cause I don't think that's luck.

Sometimes I dont think I'm trans because people have told me over and over how femme I look and act. And for people this hasn't happened to pre-HRT, it may seem lucky but constantly hearing "is that a guy or a girl" or "he looks just like her" gets old fast. What's great now is I just get treated normal and people like me and I even have a loving BF, so life really is great and I am lucky but that luck went the other way too for a lot of my life. But I'm 30, so I'm youngish, especially for a trans woman.

The other thing is yeah I am passing really well and won't be able to ever pass as male as soon as I get laser. I havent gotten it because what if this is a mistake? What if a year from now my face is irreversibly pretty, smooth and soft and my body is a brick ->-bleeped-<-house that guys drool over, but it turns out that i was wrong. Would that be lucky? Would SRS still be my dream. Or was I just chasing a ghost? None of this will happen though since I know I am intersex or trans or something because I've been like this before i could even think. Really passing, IMO, is all about how many estrogen recpetors you have since they determine how femme you get. The thing is really masculine looking people probably do not have that many receptors. Do they?
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Tristan

Quote from: Joanna Dark on January 10, 2014, 11:17:47 AM
I think attitude and mannerisms definitely play a part but people judge by physical characteristics. I don't care how masculine you are if you are 5'6, 120 lbs. and have 34D boobs and a really pretty face, you will be gendered female. If you are on the border of passing and your face is more andro than femme, then confidence will play a bigger part. I have zero confidence because I hate my itty bitty beard shadow. Yet I still pass to almost everyone and I also have really short hair. Maybe I'm just lucky as someone said before me, but really do you think it was lucky being left out of every single male-oriented game or activity throughout my life and being beat up for being and looking feminine. Cause I don't think that's luck.

Sometimes I dont think I'm trans because people have told me over and over how femme I look and act. And for people this hasn't happened to pre-HRT, it may seem lucky but constantly hearing "is that a guy or a girl" or "he looks just like her" gets old fast. What's great now is I just get treated normal and people like me and I even have a loving BF, so life really is great and I am lucky but that luck went the other way too for a lot of my life. But I'm 30, so I'm youngish, especially for a trans woman.

The other thing is yeah I am passing really well and won't be able to ever pass as male as soon as I get laser. I havent gotten it because what if this is a mistake? What if a year from now my face is irreversibly pretty, smooth and soft and my body is a brick ->-bleeped-<-house that guys drool over, but it turns out that i was wrong. Would that be lucky? Would SRS still be my dream. Or was I just chasing a ghost? None of this will happen though since I know I am intersex or trans or something because I've been like this before i could even think. Really passing, IMO, is all about how many estrogen recpetors you have since they determine how femme you get. The thing is really masculine looking people probably do not have that many receptors. Do they?
i like the way you put this. it was in a nicer way than i could think of. the whole receptors thing is so true and for those that do look really masculine still and not feminizing very well their hope of passing sadly is small without some sort of help. im sorry you didnt get picked for male things and that you did get beaten up. it sucks but you know how school is. a cruel place sometimes. thats why despite what kids/adults may say  everyone wants to try hard to fit into some group. im glad things are going better for you now and that your passing good. as far as the might not be trans thing. on one side i would hope your not so you could not have to deal with trans things anymore but on the other side like you said your almost to that looks point of no return so its a tough one. if you discover your not trans srs def wont be a good idea.
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stephaniec

Quote from: gowiththeflow on January 10, 2014, 11:34:09 AM
i like the way you put this. it was in a nicer way than i could think of. the whole receptors thing is so true and for those that do look really masculine still and not feminizing very well their hope of passing sadly is small without some sort of help. im sorry you didnt get picked for male things and that you did get beaten up. it sucks but you know how school is. a cruel place sometimes. thats why despite what kids/adults may say  everyone wants to try hard to fit into some group. im glad things are going better for you now and that your passing good. as far as the might not be trans thing. on one side i would hope your not so you could not have to deal with trans things anymore but on the other side like you said your almost to that looks point of no return so its a tough one. if you discover your not trans srs def wont be a good idea.
Yea, the genetics plays a big part. I also was in a sense lucky because I have a lot of my mothers features, like small hands and feminine facial structure. I didn't know about the inter sexed  condition until coming to Susan's I've never been tested for it ,but it would answer some questions about me physically. This is a tough condition to deal with some times, I just hope the best for everyone dealing with these issues because it can get brutal at times.
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Just Shelly

I have seen in public, met some mothers in children's school and worked with a few women that you would swear are TS. Some of these I know can't be...because they gave birth!! Some others though I don't know....but I do not suspect anything other than the fact they are a women. Why? because they just are! I don't know what it is but even with my "extra radar" I would be surprised to find out they are TS.

One women I work with has hair on her entire body, talks monotone and fairly lower, is fairly rude and unfriendly, is somewhat over weight, not very attractive and her gestures are not very feminine....but there is still something about her that says female! I think the shape of her body and her thicker hair gender her the most but mostly its how she carries herself....its not like that of a man!
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innainka

genetics will truly stand as a mountain before anyone whose luck just wasn't there, however!

Hence, FFS.
I do realize that even then, for some even such may not hold a promise of the holy grail, and that is just a shame.
But for most, even the older ones such as my self coming to terms with life altering decision at 43 isn't the end of possibilities. You can still, with the discipline and powerful drive, become anything or at least close to, the woman you always knew within yet forbidden without!
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stephaniec

Quote from: innainka on January 10, 2014, 02:14:43 PM
genetics will truly stand as a mountain before anyone whose luck just wasn't there, however!

Hence, FFS.
I do realize that even then, for some even such may not hold a promise of the holy grail, and that is just a shame.
But for most, even the older ones such as my self coming to terms with life altering decision at 43 isn't the end of possibilities. You can still, with the discipline and powerful drive, become anything or at least close to, the woman you always knew within yet forbidden without!
simple cosmetics can do an amazing job
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innainka

Quote from: stephaniec on January 10, 2014, 03:20:55 PM
simple cosmetics can do an amazing job

sure they can, but gender perception works in a tri-dimensional space, cosmetics usually can further femininity from the front providing already quite fem face, however, masculine lines of the profile, the side view, never fail to undoubtedly point to the genetic gender, what usually is a very strong male lines, remnants of the poisonous compound known as T.....

Makeup can NOT make fully developed male into an image of female, no amount of patch can smooth the skin texture, line with fat, remove thickness. But then, some who are fortunate, like someone I personally know, are so feminine that a little of makeup makes them into a gorgeous female, no kidding! And all this fortune bestowed onto someone who wants to remain just a crossdresser, go figure.....
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Northern Jane

Quote from: Joanna Dark on January 10, 2014, 11:17:47 AM
...  but really do you think it was lucky being left out of every single male-oriented game or activity throughout my life and being beat up for being and looking feminine. Cause I don't think that's luck....

I know what you mean! I was referred to as "it" though most of my childhood and teens. That's just plain cruel.
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stephaniec

Quote from: Northern Jane on January 10, 2014, 04:12:31 PM
I know what you mean! I was referred to as "it" though most of my childhood and teens. That's just plain cruel.
childhood and teens , not a pleasant experience for me. My nick name was " tiny  tears"
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tuuliu

I'd love to hear the answers to this question! Seriously, it seemed completely impossible for me to even consider myself as a transsexual just last year. A BIG part of that was because I was under the impression that "there's no way I could ever be seen as a female by anyone because that's the image I have of transsexuals."

Then again, it's likely that there's little incentive for anyone to do such a study. The general atmosphere seems to be that it's ok even if you fail to be seen as a female, as long as you can be yourself. Which IS a part of the truth: It often is about making the effort. At the same time social pain activates the same parts of the brain as physical pain does.

So if I saw numbers I'd have an easier time making a decision for myself. Even if those numbers are at best subjective and probably biased.

amber1964

Well lots of good answers here. Most can pass a lot of the time. It all depends on how high you set the bar. Lots of females dont look very female. But if you are talking about 100% of the time, never questioned, no matter what the situation, the percentage is small. With enough money and given reasonable body dimensions its higher. Basically people decide on gender at an invisible level in about .5 seconds. Once they find you odd, or off, its permanent. Once they decide your female, nothing much will change their minds.

There is no debate about right or wrong. Some people cope fine with being read, its not a huge stress to them. A lot settle on a very androgenous appearance so they just kind of disappear. Not obviously either sex. Some cant stand the idea of not being obviously female. So its up to you, knowing yourself. What can you tolerate? What are your own personal expectations and needs?

So, when you say the general atmoshere says its ok, that is a conversation about morality and lifestyles. Most, in a place like this, would say just make yourself happy.

But thats the hard part, knowing what you need to be happy and then critically evaluating if you can meet that expectation. If you want to look like Malibu Barbie, then you better have a body that is capable of getting close to those dimensions. If your happy looking like Rosie O'Donnel then thats different. If you just want to live very quiet and get read as female when casually walking down the street, thats not hard. If you want to work and for close relationships and not get read thats very hard.

So even if you did such a study its worthless. Because it wont help you answer your feelings about yourself or tell you anything about how well you will be able to meet them. 
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amber1964

So, I wanted to add. My personal advice to anyone is to not undertake a transition if you can find any other way of living with a reasonable degree of comfort and happiness. Because, this passing bar, wherever you set it for yourself NOW, you might feel very different after a year or two. Sometimes, people feminize very decently but each time they get to a point, they raise the bar a few notches. So ironically, they feel less genuine as they look more genuine. It happens and its unpredictable.

Thats why it says on this site, balanced on the sharp edge of a knife.

Im sorry, there are no easy answers.
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Just Shelly

Quote from: amber1964 on January 12, 2014, 04:16:30 PM
So, I wanted to add. My personal advice to anyone is to not undertake a transition if you can find any other way of living with a reasonable degree of comfort and happiness. Because, this passing bar, wherever you set it for yourself NOW, you might feel very different after a year or two. Sometimes, people feminize very decently but each time they get to a point, they raise the bar a few notches. So ironically, they feel less genuine as they look more genuine. It happens and its unpredictable.

Thats why it says on this site, balanced on the sharp edge of a knife.

Im sorry, there are no easy answers.

WOW!! I will be honest with you and say I haven't agreed with much of what you have said....but this!!! Is very true!!

Although not much different than the many insecurities many cis women  feel also....we will never have the body, hair, looks, cloths.......
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ThePhoenix

There's passing to others and then their's passing to oneself.  I basically do not get clocked as anything but a ciswoman in my life.  But I look at myself in the mirror and it has taken a couple of years to start seeing female rather than anything other than T-damage.  So one can pass and blend in seamlessly with others . . . But yet still see oneself as looking strange.  Perhaps because you just get used to seeing yourself one way and it's hard to get out of the habit and takes time to do so.  The cognitive dissonance that this creates is not fun.
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