Trans* people are not cis people

[eli77]

I think this is one of the problems that occurs when this issue is brought up:

FAAB person talks about male privilege or the like.

MAAB person says something about how they never experienced it, etc.

FAAB hears in her mind the denial of female 'lack of privilege' and her experience. She's still dealing with the consequences of it and is probably a little bitter about it. She says something more about male privilege.

MAAB person hears: 'you're a horrible, privileged man keeping all women down!' MAAB person is hurt because they've honestly never felt privileged a day in their life and now they feel blamed for something they never chose and didn't even know about.

This becomes even more complicated and problematic when involving trans people. In that case the MAAB person is already sad about missing a female childhood and vice versa for the FAAB. Not to mention that trans people often end up experiencing both sides of the coin.

Anyway, like I said earlier, I think the term 'privilege' is problematic and obscures the issue. It only serves to make the so called 'privileged' feel defensive and blamed.

Actually, it's kind of a much bigger issue than just feeling sad about missing a female childhood. What has historically happened with this argument is that it has led to denial of services to MAAB women, along with seriously obscuring the intersection that creates transmisogyny. We now have the stats to back up the statement that on the list of kinds of women you really, really, really don't want to be in North America: trans women stand at the top. Trans women aren't just worse off on average, they are FAR worse off on average across basically every single metric from sexual abuse to risk of homelessness to survival sex work to HIV infection rates. And if you add racism to that particular gruesome stew it just hits an untold level of hell.

So, yes, absolutely, trans women totally benefited from male privilege pre-transition. The problem is that that is so far less relevant, statistically, than actually trying to survive in our society as a trans woman that that privilege gets statistically vapourized. The only remaining trace is our slightly higher education levels compared to cis women. Across every other metric, being trans and female is just so unbelievably worse than being cis and female.

So... while you are right: the reason trans women get defensive on this issue is the wrong one, there actually is a really big serious reason to get defensive on this issue. Which is that if yer a feminist, and you want to put your money where your mouth is, trans women actually need more assistance and resources, not less than their cis compatriots. And that the above argument of male privilege, which is used to block access for trans women to shelters, sex worker outreach programs, and women's spaces in general, is a very small picture of a much bigger portrait and succeeds mostly in occluding the real issues.

So there is that. Since this thread is ugly truths and all.

[Joanna Dark]

the idea that someone born male experienced the socialization that I did (or close to it) is kind of offensive. I'm sorry if they were badly treated, but it's not the same as being born female. Just as being born poor and underprivileged doesn't make me any less white or any more a racial minority. Being born female is a minority status all over the world. And it takes a psychic toll. Even if a white person had a much harder life by comparison to an African American person, it doesn't mean he knows anything about racism or that his abuse has anything to do with his African American brothers'.

So while I sympathize and feel bad for trans women who were abused for being feminine, it is NOT the same thing. The abuse of feminine males may have roots in sexism but it is still nothing like growing up female. The trans women who acknowledge this are a lot more likely to get along with cis women.

^This couldn't be more true. If you looked up femme male in the dictionary you'd see my face. I hung out with mainly girls as a kid and teen (but I did have guy friends too). I became a witch as age 15. And I mean I did a ceremony and everything and created a cleansing pool in the woods by my house and erected a tree house for my Wiccan spells and worship of the Goddess Diana of the Hunt. Hence, it being int he woods. And my friends destroyed it. Literally burned it to the ground after I worked for months on it. Only my one friend tried to stop them. Or so he says.

I got beat up constantly. People always wanted to fight me. I dressed andro. I acted like a punk girl and dyed my hair light pink with a fauxhawk. I had a girlfriend though so that helped. And even one day at lunch my friends and I were discussing what we would become. And my two friends Stef and Misty said in unison: Housewife! So that says a lot. But was a isocialized female. NO. I have no diea what it's like to have a period or to worry about becoming pregnant. I wasnt invited to girls only parties. I was treated different than males but that doesnt mean female socialization. It's not either or. And I agree, it is kind of offensive to suggest that a femme male knows the tribulations of growing up female and the beauty and disney princess coporate gender crap that is forced downb girls throats.

Did I expereince male privilege? Id ont know. Not in the normal way But for certain I did. I went to prison at 18. A girl would have got off. That's a plus to being female. Trust me i coulda been arrested five times since i transitioned and im always let go. But there's another stuff like getting jobs and such. I know I got paid more at one job cause i was a white male and the guy told me to keep it on the QT. Male privilege. He prob thought I was gay but a lot of people where i live dont care about being gay they just dont like all the pride fests. And there isnt many in Philly. Not big ones. Well maybe there is but the culture in Pgilly is to keep things on the down low and invite the people who want to come to avoid bad people or rabble rousers.

So as much as I feel i didnt really experience full-fledged male privilege, I certainly received some of it. And women have it much worse in many ways especially with the whole beauty culture and being expected to be pretty24/7. It's a real eye opener for me.

Five months ago I woulda said  no, i didnt get male privilege. But ya live and learn. I know I'll never know what it is truly like to be female. But, I am intersexed, so all im trying to do is get as close as possible and have a "Half Life" which is better than no life.

Great post FA!

But now I read Sarah7's:

Trans women aren't just worse off on average, they are FAR worse off on average across basically every single metric from sexual abuse to risk of homelessness to survival sex work to HIV infection rates. And if you add racism to that particular gruesome stew it just hits an untold level of hell.

So, yes, absolutely, trans women totally benefited from male privilege pre-transition. The problem is that that is so far less relevant, statistically, than actually trying to survive in our society as a trans woman that that privilege gets statistically vapourized. The only remaining trace is our slightly higher education levels compared to cis women. Across every other metric, being trans and female is just so unbelievably worse than being cis and female.

So... while you are right: the reason trans women get defensive on this issue is the wrong one, there actually is a really big serious reason to get defensive on this issue. Which is that if yer a feminist, and you want to put your money where your mouth is, trans women actually need more assistance and resources, not less than their cis compatriots. And that the above argument of male privilege, which is used to block access for trans women to shelters, sex worker outreach programs, and women's spaces in general, is a very small picture of a much bigger portrait and succeeds mostly in occluding the real issues.

So there is that. Since this thread is ugly truths and all.

This is so true. I am a drug addict. My mom finally accpeted me and let me move in and i can dress how i want I just cant wear eye makeup, which is no big deal. ( I actually cant beleive she accepts me. it's like a drream. Im wearing skinny jeans a bra and a cute pinkish top and she gave me money for my meds. I have no idea what id did. I cleaned the ice off her car, but it cant be that). But I have and was on the streets in December and no one would help me. I was clean for years, but I lost my job for being trans and i begged my boss that this would ruin everything with my BF cause he will only support me for a couple months, if that. He isn't rich. And he has been carrying me. But I cant get any help. The Suboxone clinic I go to basically stiole my money and wont fill out the paper work for insurance and the stupid lady that helped me get insurance put down I was trans. Thanks it really helped. I tired getting into rehab as my BF woyulndt let me live there as i stole from him until I went to detox. So I was on the streets, with some guy following me and he was abouyt to attack me until i screamed rape, and at this one place, they literally did next to nothing. So Sarah7 is right: after transition, male privilege vanishes like a virgin on prom night and it doesnt come back. So there is simply no comparison to the status of a trans woman to a cis woman. a cis female has it tons better. It's not even in the same league. There's almost nothing worse then being a trans woman in AMERICA. a country that lags behind iran in regards to trans rights. Think about that. I hope the West Coast is different cause thats where I want to go. I hate Philly. If you're thinking of moving here, dont. It's gritty and the people are so nasty. Guys are usually nice tome these days but thats cause of my boobs.

Ill stop rambling I hope that made sense. I been writing all day so...yeah.

[suzifrommd]

OK, get ready to kick me in the teeth.

I've actually experienced MORE privilege since becoming a woman.

It used to be strangers were suspicious of me. Now they routinely smile. It's much easier to talk to strangers, especially women. No one is afraid of me.

People will do things for me. The custodial staff at our school is far more solicitous than before.

People are more likely to trust and confide in me. Women assume that they and I share common experiences. Never happened to me as a man.

It's more acceptable for me not to know what I'm doing. People tend to be more understanding and less critical.

People more readily understand that I don't feel safe. No one looks askance if I ask someone to walk me to my car.

I can tell when someone is romantically interested in me. Men make it pretty clear (until they figure out I'm trans), whereas as a male, I never had a clue when a female was interested in me.

Men seek me out and speak with me. Before I was always kind of invisible.

Of course, a lot of this is "passing privilege." If I didn't pass, there's no way I'd have them, but they are clearly related to my gender as perceived by others.

I know male privilege exists. I've had a whiff of it and seen those who use it handily to their advantage. But despite the fact that it will invite flames, I need to provide my own post-transition experiences as counterpoint.

[Ltl89]

Most transwomen will not deny that their socialization and experience was different than a cisgender woman's.  Of course it was different.  And yes, we do feel bad about some of the things we missed out on, but that isn't the point we are making when we bring up our differences at a young age (or at least the point I'm trying to make)  The thing is that living as a transwomen presents many problems in a world that is largely against us.  Sure, we may have privilege for how we were assigned at birth, but at the same time that very distinction as male was what made life so hard.  Life as a male is very rigid.  If you break out of the norms, which happens to be the case for many transwomen, believe me, you won't feel very privileged.  As FA said a little above, discrepancies get picked up on in "fem guys".  Often young transwomen are unfairly treated like a social pariah because we break the mold in many ways and it can cost us which is why many of us try to hide or deny ourselves. It's not to say we experienced the same thing cisgender women do because we were teased for being different than the other boys.  That's silly. Yes, our experiences and social expectations do differ greatly; however, it also really does feel so wrong to be lumped in with the experience of the average straight cisgender male when many of us don't feel we lived that life in any sense and when it was a source of discomfort.  At least it feels odd to me.  Not that I deny there is an existence of male privilege or deny that I have benefited from it in my life in some sense, but in many ways the male social expectations played against me and caused me great harm.  There are so many shades to life and so many factors that can alter how one is perceived that I think the whole notion of privilege obscures the reality of what many of us experience.  That's why the talk of privilege and lumping transwomen in with cismen in some ways makes me feel very uncomfortable despite the fact that I acknowledge the clear differences between the socialization/ expectations of "men" and "women".  Hope that makes sense.

[sad panda]

I agree it shouldn't be dismissed. But I always wonder why people think it's odd that a lot of trans people have leftovers from their upbringing. When you're trans, there's this implication that you must be ultra feminine - that you were so feminine you had to transition and vice versa. That somehow a trans woman who was raised male should just magically lack male traits. It's like we're supposed to just be a brain in a bubble until transition that soaked up nothing. But socialization is at least as much about people's reactions to us than anything about us. And I don't think the average cis woman would be very feminine in behavior if she were raised a boy either. And one thing that often gets overlooked is that feminine behavior in a boy and masculine behavior in a girl gets magnified. The 'feminine' traits in a boy are given much more weight than any masculine traits he has. As a result, you could have a trans woman who was feminine as a man, but comes off masculine as a woman. Those masculine traits are just more obvious now.

Well, leftovers yes, a whole personality... probably not?

Mmmh. It's hard to say. I don't really have beliefs either way about this. Because I believe it has an effect, but then I've seen people develop mannerisms that ran completely counter to the way they were socialized. I personally think there's a person's natural temperament, and I also think that temperament shapes socialization to some degree. A feminine guy will continue to have a different socialization that would be invisible to a masculine guy. So what is a male/female socialization? I don't think there can be only 1 of each type. I think it's unique to every person and just male or female is not enough to even assess much of anything about it. And I can't seriously be the only person who believes there are trans women who think, feel and behave exactly like normal cis women? :S

I'm sorry if that doesn't make any sense ><

Well, I apologize if I came off that way (I think I'm one of the few FAAB posters in this thread). As far as FAAB people's voices on this having more weight, I don't know about that. But I do think though that 'male privilege' (still hoping for a better term) or sexism or whatever is more visible and harmful to those without it. It's kind of like I certainly don't feel privileged for being white. I haven't had an easy life, etc. But a POC is probably a lot more aware of not being white than I am of being white. I'm not aware of all the subtle ways my life has been easier (or what have you) because of it. So if we were having a discussion on race inequalities, my going on about not being a privileged white person may sound dismissive to a POC. Not because she wants to be a sanctimonious ->-bleeped-<-, but because race inequality has been a much bigger issue in her life than mine. Racial inequalities have been a real obstacle in her life. Just as gender inequalities have.

I think this is one of the problems that occurs when this issue is brought up:

FAAB person talks about male privilege or the like.

MAAB person says something about how they never experienced it, etc.

FAAB hears in her mind the denial of female 'lack of privilege' and her experience. She's still dealing with the consequences of it and is probably a little bitter about it. She says something more about male privilege.

MAAB person hears: 'you're a horrible, privileged man keeping all women down!' MAAB person is hurt because they've honestly never felt privileged a day in their life and now they feel blamed for something they never chose and didn't even know about.

This becomes even more complicated and problematic when involving trans people. In that case the MAAB person is already sad about missing a female childhood and vice versa for the FAAB. Not to mention that trans people often end up experiencing both sides of the coin.

Anyway, like I said earlier, I think the term 'privilege' is problematic and obscures the issue. It only serves to make the so called 'privileged' feel defensive and blamed.

Yeah, I can totally see how that is frustrating. Invalidation is always frustrating. I'm really sorry if I seemed ignorant of that. It is not cool. you are absolutely right about the need for better terminology. I think the problem is the implied feeling that every MAAB person is culpable that provokes defensiveness, when it is just as beyond their own control as it is anyone else's.

I do also think there's another side of the coin that is frustrating, which is that men are not supposed to complain. Men won't be as willing to acknowledge if something is difficult for them or unfair to them. So when they do, it's not taken seriously. If a man says that it really sucks to have been raised believing that his feelings do not matter and that nobody will listen if he needs emotional support, and that people will blame him first for any of his problems, I don't think that's taken seriously. Men are expected to minimize their problems. And when this is brought up with feminists, their problems are always reduced to a symptom of the patriarchy. Yeah, but it still sucks, it is still wrong and he's still suffering. It still goes both ways and nobody is individually responsible for that. You know?

I think that's why it's sort of questionable to attach personal stories to broader social problems, even if it is tempting or just plain true.... If a woman experiences sexism, it is sexist and it is bad and wrong, but is it worth going, "freaking male privilege!!" over it? How do they know that they specifically wouldn't experience something as difficult as their personal problem as a man? Honestly, how do they know? And does it hurt less or change anything to know that it was caused by sexism? Maybe it does... Idk.

Mmmm... like, I am working through a lot of mental health problems right now and don't feel able to work. I am supported by my boyfriend. If I were still living as a man, I probably would not be. My parents, who don't understand my problems and don't understand why I couldn't work, would have kicked me out by now, and I would probably be homeless right now. Yet, as a woman, I am taken care of financially and not expected to earn money. Even my own father has suddenly given me more love, empathy and support than he ever did before I transitioned. My in-laws don't complain that I don't have a job and aren't bothered by it. I'm not treated like a parasite or a deadbeat. There's really no pressure.. I feel incredibly guilty about this. Is it kind of sexist? Is it only that way because I'm not as respected, I'm not trusted as competent and I would have less actual job opportunities if I were looking for work? Maybe... but the fact is that a man in my position would probably not get any sympathy, just because he were a man. He would probably be homeless. And that really and truly sucks, no matter why it sucks.

[eli77]

Okay this is to both Joanna Dark and Suzi. First that is super ->-bleeped-<-ing awful Joanna, and I'm so sorry you've been through all that. I really hope things start to improve for you and I'm glad you have the support of your mum now. And Suzi, I'm glad that has been your experience, that's fab!

But unfortunately this is exactly the problem I was talking about before. The concept of privilege and disempowerment as a social ill, is not really reducible to individuals. What you both have experienced in your own lives are just single points on a data set of hundreds or thousands, depending on the size of the study. What you look at in sociology are trends, and what those trends mean for a group of people on average. You can't say "this is going to happen to x person." You can't even say "this is the chance of this happening to x person." All that can actually be said are things like "on average, a trans woman is more likely to experience homelessness over the course of her life than a cis woman." See the diff? A lot of the "social justice" movement online has really lost track of this basic concept: that you can't go from a generalization about a social group to the experience of a specific individual, and you can't go from the experience of a specific individual to a generalization about a social group. That isn't how the data works.

So basically, Suzi and Joanna, your experiences are your own. And they are 100% valid as your own experiences. But as evidence for or against the existence of transmisogyny in our society? Two data points is very, very weak. The study I'm talking about used a sample size in the thousands: http://www.thetaskforce.org/reports_and_research/ntds

[Nero]

Actually, it's kind of a much bigger issue than just feeling sad about missing a female childhood. What has historically happened with this argument is that it has led to denial of services to MAAB women, along with seriously obscuring the intersection that creates transmisogyny. We now have the stats to back up the statement that on the list of kinds of women you really, really, really don't want to be in North America: trans women stand at the top. Trans women aren't just worse off on average, they are FAR worse off on average across basically every single metric from sexual abuse to risk of homelessness to survival sex work to HIV infection rates. And if you add racism to that particular gruesome stew it just hits an untold level of hell.

So, yes, absolutely, trans women totally benefited from male privilege pre-transition. The problem is that that is so far less relevant, statistically, than actually trying to survive in our society as a trans woman that that privilege gets statistically vapourized. The only remaining trace is our slightly higher education levels compared to cis women. Across every other metric, being trans and female is just so unbelievably worse than being cis and female.

So... while you are right: the reason trans women get defensive on this issue is the wrong one, there actually is a really big serious reason to get defensive on this issue. Which is that if yer a feminist, and you want to put your money where your mouth is, trans women actually need more assistance and resources, not less than their cis compatriots. And that the above argument of male privilege, which is used to block access for trans women to shelters, sex worker outreach programs, and women's spaces in general, is a very small picture of a much bigger portrait and succeeds mostly in occluding the real issues.

So there is that. Since this thread is ugly truths and all.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come off trivializing though I can see how that statement about being sad about missing a female childhood might. And there are some so called 'feminists' who use the 'male privilege/male upbringing' as a weapon against trans women. While I can understand the point that it is a different thing to grow up female in the world and that should be recognized, I don't think it's relevant to trans women's lives who have their own upbringing to overcome. Being born and recognized as female and all that entails in a sexist world is just one thing they didn't have to deal with. It doesn't mean anything or say anything about their femininity or experience. It's probably even an asset in some ways (the same way my not growing up repressed as a boy is an asset).

Anyway, growing up female sucks, growing up male sucks. They just suck in different ways. When being trans is added to that, it sucks even worse. But to grow up female and be socialized female is basically to learn how to be 'less' in everything. To learn to be an object. No matter how your parents or teachers try to empower you, you still learn everyday through your culture that people with a body like yours are objects. And that you are an object to be commented on and evaluated based on your flesh above all else. People with bodies like yours are just that - bodies.

"To live in a culture in which women are routinely naked where men aren't is to learn inequality in little ways all day long." - Naomi Wolf

That's huge and damaging but subtle. Now obviously the way boys are raised is also very damaging. I'm just saying it's different to grow up in a culture where people of your sex are decidedly second class and less than. And demeaned and devalued everywhere you look. Girls are defined by their sex. Boys aren't. Our sex is a girl's main characteristic. We are SEX and little else in this culture. And everyone reinforces it from your teachers (even female) who don't call on you or encourage you as much as the boys to everyone else. Hell, maybe they're trying to help. Smarts never got a girl anywhere. To be born a girl is to be born second class, the Sex Class.

Sure, there may be some girls who succeeded despite all that, but how many more would there be if this wasn't a thing?

Sorry that turned into a rant of sorts. Wow, I sound like a feminist. Oh the shame. Anyway, I know you know all this Sarah. I'm just talking about it because it's been on my mind as I try to work through the lingering effects of it.

You know I used to be kind of sexist before transition. Used to be offended that they would have to call female cops to frisk me. Hell, offended at the very existence of female cops! I don't know what happened.

Anyway, the very long winded point I'm trying to make is that many FAAB people are bitter with good reason (growing up female in a male world sucks.) That bitterness is misdirected at trans women who fall into the same and worse trap of misogyny in a male world. I'm just saying I get why FAAB get all up in arms about childhood and socialization. Because it sucks, growing up female. But absence of a female childhood doesn't save trans women who are then subject to all manner of sexism on top of trans misogyny. I'm sure whatever 'male privilege' they may have experienced is little comfort. I mean, I know about the murder rate of trans women. I was not trying to minimize that at all. I'm just trying to explain what I think some FAAB are feeling. Being female in this world hurts trans or cis. In a way that being male doesn't (not that being male doesn't hurt).

[sad panda]

*hugs to everyone*

That was an awesome post FA. And Sarah7

And wow, Joanna, sorry life has been so hard for you lately. I hope you are okay.

Wow, there is just so much feeling in this thread. I probably don't express myself very well but I really wish the world could publicly and honestly have this dialog and agree that everyone is valuable and everyone deserves to be loved and respected. /sappy rant

[eli77]

Sorry that turned into a rant of sorts. Wow, I sound like a feminist. Oh the shame. Anyway, I know you know all this Sarah. I'm just talking about it because it's been on my mind as I try to work through the lingering effects of it.

We are the Feminists, you will be assimilated.

No, I totes agree with everything you've said, I just wanted to add the extra layer because it's super important and people need to not forget how the male privilege gets overshadowed by the transmisogyny and all. You are a good.

[amZo]

OK, get ready to kick me in the teeth.

I've actually experienced MORE privilege since becoming a woman.

It used to be strangers were suspicious of me. Now they routinely smile. It's much easier to talk to strangers, especially women. No one is afraid of me.

People will do things for me. The custodial staff at our school is far more solicitous than before.

People are more likely to trust and confide in me. Women assume that they and I share common experiences. Never happened to me as a man.

It's more acceptable for me not to know what I'm doing. People tend to be more understanding and less critical.

People more readily understand that I don't feel safe. No one looks askance if I ask someone to walk me to my car.

I can tell when someone is romantically interested in me. Men make it pretty clear (until they figure out I'm trans), whereas as a male, I never had a clue when a female was interested in me.

Men seek me out and speak with me. Before I was always kind of invisible.

Of course, a lot of this is "passing privilege." If I didn't pass, there's no way I'd have them, but they are clearly related to my gender as perceived by others.

I know male privilege exists. I've had a whiff of it and seen those who use it handily to their advantage. But despite the fact that it will invite flames, I need to provide my own post-transition experiences as counterpoint.

This is very interesting.

I suppose it depends on what a person values as to whether belonging to a group yields an advantage or disadvantage (or privilege or not). If your value is income level, then being male could be seen as privilege (but not much these days, when studied correctly, i.e., keeping all other things equal (constant), then income disparities nearly disappear). But if your value is the likelihood of having a door opened for you, then female privilege is in play.

Like most things, it all depends how you look at it and whether you're a glass is half full or half empty kind of person.

[Nero]

OK, get ready to kick me in the teeth.

I've actually experienced MORE privilege since becoming a woman.

It used to be strangers were suspicious of me. Now they routinely smile. It's much easier to talk to strangers, especially women. No one is afraid of me.

People will do things for me. The custodial staff at our school is far more solicitous than before.

People are more likely to trust and confide in me. Women assume that they and I share common experiences. Never happened to me as a man.

It's more acceptable for me not to know what I'm doing. People tend to be more understanding and less critical.

People more readily understand that I don't feel safe. No one looks askance if I ask someone to walk me to my car.

I can tell when someone is romantically interested in me. Men make it pretty clear (until they figure out I'm trans), whereas as a male, I never had a clue when a female was interested in me.

Men seek me out and speak with me. Before I was always kind of invisible.

Of course, a lot of this is "passing privilege." If I didn't pass, there's no way I'd have them, but they are clearly related to my gender as perceived by others.

I know male privilege exists. I've had a whiff of it and seen those who use it handily to their advantage. But despite the fact that it will invite flames, I need to provide my own post-transition experiences as counterpoint.

No flames hon.  I'm not sure if I would label it female privilege, but female advantage certainly exists. Some would call it 'benevolent sexism' and they may have a point with that. When you're on the street, this becomes apparent. Women are offered rides and other assistance before men are. I've been in a situation where I as a starving junkie was offered food when my male companion was not (they even made sure it was for me and not my male friend). 

As a woman you know you can easily find help if needed. Now, often times there is an agenda behind this 'help'. Men are quick to offer assistance to a woman in hope of getting something in return. I also experienced getting mugged by a gang of thugs as a white man in a part of town I had lived in for years and was totally safe as a woman. I'm sure it's because I seemed to have money as white man on a Friday night in that part of town. As a white woman, I lived and walked there with no problem.

[ThePhoenix]

No flames hon.  I'm not sure if I would label it female privilege, but female advantage certainly exists.

What is the difference between a privilege and an advantage?  I'm not trying to be cute here.  But if we say that one group, as an aggregate, has advantages in society over another, then isn't that the same as saying the group has a privilege?

[Nero]

No flames hon.  I'm not sure if I would label it female privilege, but female advantage certainly exists.

What is the difference between a privilege and an advantage?  I'm not trying to be cute here.  But if we say that one group, as an aggregate, has advantages in society over another, then isn't that the same as saying the group has a privilege?

I'm not sure. I guess the advantage comes from being perceived less capable and more pitiable. And frankly, having something to offer - pussy. The promise or even hope of pussy accounts for a lot of chivalry. Men have to have something other than themselves to recommend them. Women have a pussy. Other than that, women can easily get help because they are seen as non capable and non threatening. A man should be able to fend for himself, so no one bothers about him. I mean, if you need help and look like a woman, it's nice that you can more easily get help, but it's not exactly flattering. Down and out, it's nicer to be female. You can probably eat easier. But if you're trying to get anywhere, it's harder.

[eli77]

What is the difference between a privilege and an advantage?  I'm not trying to be cute here.  But if we say that one group, as an aggregate, has advantages in society over another, then isn't that the same as saying the group has a privilege?

Basically the difference is about power. A privilege is a result of a power difference between two groups. We live in a society where disabled folks are massively disempowered. When you talk about them getting medical treatment for free, you aren't talking about a privilege.

It seems pedantic, but it's a super important distinction because it helps with understanding things like why you'd want something like affirmative action in order to offset a power imbalance (i.e., a pre-existing privilege), even though on a surface level it's offering an unequal advantage. It also gets into the difference between equality and equity.

Equality is everyone gets the same. Equity is about trying to define "fair" based on context and give everyone that. It might be equal to offer a dude with muscular dystrophy the same level of support as an able-bodied dude, but it wouldn't be fair. Nah?

it's also why as a sociological concept "female privilege" doesn't really exist in our society, because our society's power imbalance goes in the other direction. Like I said, the whole concept is a pretty specific tool that is used to analyze how our society works and try to make things better.

For example, the whole people stopping for women... That's not a privilege, that's actually just a side-effect of the unequal system that exists. Basically, people stop for women because they are considered less-threatening. They are considered less-threatening because they have less power. There is actually a whole cool chunk of research being done in Men's Studies around how the power-imbalance that exists is actually really terrible, particularly in the psychological costs, for lots of dudes. But that doesn't make the system we exist in not a patriarchy. That just means there are bad results from fundamental power-imbalances built into a society, and some of those affect the privileged group. Doesn't make the group not privileged. So ya. Social science is fun!

[amZo]

I'm not sure. I guess the advantage comes from being perceived less capable and more pitiable. And frankly, having something to offer - pussy.

Well... he didn't beat around the bush (no pun intended) for long before he got to it.   

Did he need to continue after pussy? No, but it was interesting none the less.

[ThePhoenix]

I'm not sure. I guess the advantage comes from being perceived less capable and more pitiable. And frankly, having something to offer - pussy. The promise or even hope of pussy accounts for a lot of chivalry. Men have to have something other than themselves to recommend them. Women have a pussy. Other than that, women can easily get help because they are seen as non capable and non threatening. A man should be able to fend for himself, so no one bothers about him. I mean, if you need help and look like a woman, it's nice that you can more easily get help, but it's not exactly flattering. Down and out, it's nicer to be female. You can probably eat easier. But if you're trying to get anywhere, it's harder.

Basically the difference is about power. A privilege is a result of a power difference between two groups. We live in a society where disabled folks are massively disempowered. When you talk about them getting medical treatment for free, you aren't talking about a privilege.

Thank you for these.  I'm not sure that I agree.  But I also know I'm not feeling very clear headed tonight, which is why I'm not saying much.  But I appreciate the clarification of what was being expressed.  Thank you.

[Nero]

I'm not sure. I guess the advantage comes from being perceived less capable and more pitiable. And frankly, having something to offer - pussy.

Well... he didn't beat around the bush (no pun intended) for long before he got to it.   

Did he need to continue after pussy? No, but it was interesting none the less.

LOL But honestly, that's about it. That's how women get about in the world. Everyone knows this on a gut level, but no one says it. Women know it. That's why they do what they do.

[amZo]

Well... he didn't beat around the bush (no pun intended) for long before he got to it.   

Did he need to continue after pussy? No, but it was interesting none the less.


LOL But honestly, that's about it. That's how women get about in the world. Everyone knows this on a gut level, but no one says it. Women know it. That's why they do what they do.

  Oh I hear ya, I agree 100%!

[Joanna Dark]

I will say this: the idea that trans women are basically men in how they talk and interact is offensive as heck. I can't even believe it was said. Wow. Maybe I miss read it but I dont think so.

To the OP: you dont want to say anythign about your past but you say you were socialized female yet born male and lived most of your adult life as a male, but you just dont' speak male yet they speak to you for over a half hour? As soon as I try to associate with men as a man, everyone shuts up like cats who swallowed canaries or somethign like that. I don't know. I'm intersexed, which is something I rarely, if ever, mention. I grew boobs at age 12 and didn't pass as a boy until 2008 when I started taking steroids. People assumed I was a girl until I told them otherwise. I was in a halfway house at age 18 as I was kickd out and the guys wanted me to wear women's clothes, they had them alll set out, like im some idiot and would just wear them. I shaved my head to help, and they all said wow, now you should put a nzi symbol on your forehead you look like a manson girl.

So, what's that make me? But I still feel I got male privilege. Not the good kind: when I was 18 and was sent to prison for two years for a crime that a female would have got six months probation for if even arrested, I was sexually assaulted by two men and people literally bid on me. I still have nightmares. I made friends with a very large transsexual and the problems stopped. The other thing was men are men and many of them straight up treated me as a woman and stopped people from picking on me. Their words: I don't like people picking on girls. I also started working out and all people said was yeah you really bulked up, trying to be a bull dyke? Another guy kept calling me cupcake and he contolled the laundary and gave me all smalls which empasized my oversized butt and really made my booobs stick out. I remember the first comment from this guy, who basically protected me cause he was just cool like tyhat and even smoked weeed with me, but he was like wow Mal, yeah they called me Mallory, you have boobs. What are they B cups. Nice. Most guys simply would not fight me and i tried many times just to prove I would and they never, ever would. I don't fight girls wa always the answer. They even wanted to put me on A block. Now, this might sound fun or cool to some, cause it means i look femme, but you begin to understand how horrid it was. For two years, I was always afraid. But then once I heard in another prsion they give people like me female hormones, and that's the first I ever heard of it. I just thought you got a sex change a voila. Now I know.

After I got out my life got much better, and I started dating a lesbian until she wanted a man. I edited a women's magazine, my life was great from 2004-2008.  In 2008, after the steroids, i lost to a girl in an arm wrestling contest, and she said: I still have never lost to another girl like it was some point of pride. Her brother started whsispering something like shhhh, she'll hear.

But I just dont understand how the OP is different from other trans women. Maybe i'm reading it wrong, and forgive me if I am, but it sounded that way and I dont know why noone pointed out. Maybe I'm going insane.

See the thing is, I have been friends with guys, and every single time, when I hang out with the group of guys, I never hang out again. When they play catch, no one throws to me. When I tried to play football in seventh grade, they said the cheerleader team is over there little girl. I eventually got on but they couldnt find shoulder pads for me as my shoulders are 13 inches across. Whren I got my grad pics taken they asked me why I was wearing a suit and not a dress like I was supposed to.

Yet, because i'm so andro, once I say im male people believe it, well not always, some want to see my id and some when I was kid held me down and wanted to see my vagina since they did not believe I was a man. These were my friends. The one I actually went out with and I dont know how but he knew I was going to get a sex change and told me that a lot of times people kill themselves after. I can't even count how many times people have asked me if I'm trans way before transition.

I probably shouldnt have even said any of this. It seems pointless. But I just fail to understand why you are different from other transsexuals. Why you feel you were socialized female. Don't take offense i'd just like to know cause I consider myself socialized male and I did get some privilege from time to time but thats gone now. Now I get groped on train platforms by creeps or have guys come up and start following me and holding myh hand and trying to kiss me. But I'm just at a loss. I really wish I could unknow everything I have read on this thread.

Because really I fit in nowhere. However, most girls love being friends with me and always say, you're just like us. My ex's friends referred to me as a girl like it was nothing and once my ex said im a girly girl. And I said: don't you mean girly guy. And she said no, i don't. Girly girl. You're a woman with a penis. Look at you. You have boobs and teeny tiny hands and feet smaller than most women. Every single woman i have been friends with wanted me to wear her clothes, go shopping and try on makeup and stuff. This isn't bragging. It does me no good since I dont pass in winter. I just get funny looks. I do pass sometimes but winter has killed my ability to pass for some strange reason. I think it's the skin. Im rambling and have now offended everyone prolly but I had to say it. sorry, just sorry. I dont edit. That's the only thing could thathas come from my condition: my frienships with women. My BFF from college and I used to pass notes and talk about guys and make fun of people, ya know, for kicks. Nothing mean. But now I think am I even trans? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's all because people have told me how female i look and act my whole life. Alll my cousins have a white spot in between their breasts. I do too. Once when i was 12, I took my shirt off, and they saw it. They also saw my boobs coming in. It was so embarassing i wanted to die. TTRhey al started laughing look matty has the mark just like all of us and he's growing boobs. OMG!!!!   So, when you going to get your bikini. I remember it like yesterday. I never took my shirt off again. So, was I socialized male? I think so. But i am a very femme guy and there is no hiding it. It seeps out. If I get excited, I get all enthusiastic and happy and gush like a girl. My ex-BF thinks it's hilarious.

I guess it doesnt matter; I'm jusy me and more than anything I just want my BF back. I want him back so bad. So if i offended anyone please take this into account. Im kind of in a bad place but not for long. I got jobs and things are going my way. I know people think Mexico is horrid for SRS vut for me, its that or nothing. And id rather have that. I really believe it's going to happen. And I can be complete. Gawd, I aid tooooo much,.

[amZo]

I'm sorry >< I'm not sure I completely understood you here. Can you elaborate? By problems faced by transgender people, do you mean in communication styles/just not fitting in or?

Thanks!!

Oops, sorry, I thought you were the OP. 

I just read through this whole thread and I must say I am sickened. I'm not going to name names. I'm simply going to leave this conversation. I will say this: the idea that trans women are basically men in how they talk and interact is offensive as heck. I can't even believe it was allowed to be said. Wow. Maybe I miss read it but I dont think so.

I just feel people over-think all of this, a point I made earlier (I made it to sad panda which is why I apologized above, I meant it for the OP). I don't mean anything disrespectful by it.

I've known more trans people than not, that try to look for something in their past (or present) that proves to them they're a woman in a man's body (or visa versa). Or it's some trigger for them if they don't seem to fit in the trans community. It doesn't matter IMO. You're transitioning because you want to transition. Accept it. But what do I know? Not much it seems.