Christians and the death penalty

[The Middle Way]

Is there a backstory or a specific context?

I can see from your questions you are going through a potential major change in some situation in your life, which isn't going to be instantly noticable by everyone.

I got upset a couple days ago when an avowed, heavy Christian said in this forum, "I am in favor of the death penalty", on account of my cognitive dissonance ceiling just broke. I did not post immediately however. What I did post I have no guilt about.

I don't know.

[katia]

i'm going through a lot of changes lately; most of them have to do with my upcoming GRS.  so sorry if my threads are kinda biased.

[The Middle Way]

Hey sweety, no worries as they say. You are a little off your game, but keep asking, I look forward to your posts here.

nota

[Chynna]

Know your forum..or rather the people who post within it.

some people find insecurties within themselves and attempt to "transfer" there insecurties to others.
I am guilty of it at times and have to put myself in check ill even be specific when I first read a post for instance about someone who is married and so excited about there wife leaving so they can get  dressed I get so pissed...

WHY? Because I "Transfer" my morals on to them I believe you shouldn't play around with someones feelings in a marriage like that ..

But then reality hits me not everybody is as strong willed and confident to be who they are like I am. Im basically putting that person down for a fault they have when I myself ave serious faults one being what I just explained above "at times being judgemental"

So again realizing were all different individuals on this planet and in this forum... each with our own individual beliefs, strengths, and faults helps me to keep a level head and not get offended or pissed when someone takes offense to anything I type, write, or post.


if dat dont work pay it baby girl and pay them no mind!

[Wendy]

Katia,

You are cool. 

R U talkin' 2 me?

I hope you are O.K.  Please ask your questions.

[katia]

I got upset a couple days ago when an avowed, heavy Christian said in this forum, "I am in favor of the death penalty", on account of my cognitive dissonance ceiling just broke. I did not post immediately however. What I did post I have no guilt about.

I don't know.

it doesn't surprise me at all.  i know many christians who are in favour of the death penalty.  i;m atheist so i guess i can get away with things like that.

Posted on: July 06, 2007, 11:38:12 PM

R U talkin' 2 me?

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha    fyi, i'm over that

[The Middle Way]

  i know many christians who are in favour of the death penalty.  i;m atheist so i guess i can get away with things like that.

Well, you can call 'em that, they can call themselves whatever they like, I'm not going to contend,
but I won't be calling 'em Christians. Xtians, maybe, in a more or less sarcastic tone.

[Dorothy]

  i know many christians who are in favour of the death penalty.  i;m atheist so i guess i can get away with things like that.

Well, you can call em that, they can call themselves whatever they like, Im not going to contend,
but I wont be calling em Christians. Xtians, maybe, in a more or less sarcastic tone.

You are entitled to your opinion none of the above.  but it is just that, your opinion, nothing else.   I am a Christian and I am in favor of the death penalty. The Bible says an eye for an eye. And its not about choosing whose lives are sacred and killing whoever. When a person commits a heinous crime an appointed judge (an uncorrupted one) should be able to pass sentencing and if the situation merits, the death penalty. For example, I believe that if you murdered someone, (not including accidents or in acts of self defense, I mean murdered someone because you wanted to) then you should receive the death penalty. I find it absurd that a person who steals something, while the act is wrong, will get 5 to 10 years in prison, and someone who rapes a little girl gets out in barely a year. And then the government says that our jails are getting too full. Its ridiculous. If you commit the crime, then you should deal with the consequences. If you intentionally murder someone, then you deserve the death penalty.  Sorry to go outside the subject of the thread.

[The Middle Way]

  i know many christians who are in favour of the death penalty.  i;m atheist so i guess i can get away with things like that.

Well, you can call em that, they can call themselves whatever they like, Im not going to contend,
but I wont be calling em Christians. Xtians, maybe, in a more or less sarcastic tone.

You are entitled to your opinion none of the above.  but it is just that, your opinion, nothing else.   I am a Christian and I am in favor of the death penalty. The Bible says an eye for an eye. And its not about choosing whose lives are sacred and killing whoever. When a person commits a heinous crime an appointed judge (an uncorrupted one) should be able to pass sentencing and if the situation merits, the death penalty. For example, I believe that if you murdered someone, (not including accidents or in acts of self defense, I mean murdered someone because you wanted to) then you should receive the death penalty. I find it absurd that a person who steals something, while the act is wrong, will get 5 to 10 years in prison, and someone who rapes a little girl gets out in barely a year. And then the government says that our jails are getting too full. Its ridiculous. If you commit the crime, then you should deal with the consequences. If you intentionally murder someone, then you deserve the death penalty.  Sorry to go outside the subject of the thread.

THOU SHALT NOT KILL does not appear to be in any way equivocating. And it is, correct me if I am wrong, a COMMANDMENT.

the old Code o' Hammorabi is where the eye and tooth exchange comes from, and guess what? The Bible specifically says DO NOT DO THIS. Also has cool stuff like 'Love Thy Neighbor, as you would thyself', which, you know, if you think about it, doesn't really gibe with killing him. Your neighbor, that is, you know, another person on a planet with you.

As I understand it, and again, you will correct me if I'm wrong, Christ emphasized forgiveness, with a fair amount of regularity.

If you would like to compare notes on quotes, Comparative Religion is one of my favorite hobbies.

NONE



Posted on: July 06, 2007, 10:32:54 PM

PS
I am so not interested in anyone's justification in why they want another being put to death, unless they eat what they kill, like a civilized hunter does.

[Dorothy]

 I am all for capital punishment. Someone who commits a murder does not have the right to keep their own life. I say 2 appeals maximum for a death sentence, and then if still found guilty the sentence should be carried out. No more of this 25 years of appeals stuff.

Im sure many more will get on here and start whining about the poor innocent people who might die for a crime not committed. We all know that has happened in rare instances, but prisons are full of innocent people. You just have to ask them. Theyll tell you.

Basically the death penalty is a deterrent more than a punishment. Someone would think much longer and harder about murdering someone else if they knew that the crime would lead to their own death.

God did not tolerate murder in the Old Testament, and He never changes. Our own tolerance as a society has gotten us to where we are today.

Too many times people try to tie this subj with another that I wont even say because I dont wish for the thread to get hijacked. The two just simply are not the same.

When a criminal makes the choice to end another persons life, they deserve the maximum sentence allowed by the laws of the state (or province or country for our posters outside the US) in which the crime took place. In one of the states I am familiar with, that is death by lethal injection. With this, the accused is likely receiving more mercy than their victim.

here is my quote:

Rom 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to a king as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by Him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.

[Elizabeth]

This is the actual words of Jesus and I say it for sure trumps what is said in Romans. At least as far as those who claim to follow the teachings of Jesus. I think he makes it pretty clear that "thou shalt not kill", means thou shalt not kill.

Ch. 5
21.      Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22.     But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23.     Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24.     Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25.     Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26.     Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27.     Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28.     But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29.     And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30.     And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31.     It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32.     But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33.     Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34.     But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35.     Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36.     Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37.     But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38.     Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39.     But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40.     And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41.     And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42.     Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43.     Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44.     But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Ch. 10
29.      Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30.     For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31.     It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

6:14
"For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
6:15
"But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
7:1
"Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
7:2
"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
9:10
Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples.
9:11
When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"
9:12
But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
9:13
"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Luke 6:36
"Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

Luke 6:38
"Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure--pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return."

Luke 6:45
"The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

Are you saying that Jesus would support the Death Penalty? Because that contradicts his words. I don't see how any person claiming to follow the teaching of Christ could support killing anyone under any circumstance. Having said that, more people have died in the name of Christianity than any other cause in the history of the world. Including the current Crusade going on in the Middle east right now. Disguised as the "war on terror", it's really the Christians Vs. the Muslims again, and they are losing. More than 750,000 Iraqi's have died since this war started. Suddam never came close to killing that many.

NO, the Ten Commandments are Clear. Thou Shalt not Kill. It has no exceptions, unless one is to say that the words of men trump the words of God, because God said not to kill anyone and Jesus backed that up. It's only other men interpreting "god's word" who have justified killing. Men can not decide when to kill other men, it's always corrupt. God will kill who he wants dead, he don't need men to do it for him.

I mean, what does it mean when someone says "god told me to kill them"? I think we all know what it means. Because god don't tell anyone to kill.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Keira]

For me, discussing the death penalty on religious ground is totally pointless. People will take what they will from whatever religion they believe in and the argument will soon become circular (pointing to itself).

I'm more of a pragmatist. Because of the frailty, incompetency, bias of men as investigators, prosecutors, juries and judges, there is too much of a chance that the death penalty will smithe someone wrongly.

A review of death penalty cases in Illinois found this to be the case, that's why the governor who is for the death penalty, decided to suspend them.

Often it takes a very long time to discover how a person was wrongly convicted, decades even, so finding someone innocent can happen at any time; killing even one innocent is too many: especially if its you!!! The person on death row is very often someone who is so disenfranchised (poor, visible minority, etc) that he most often didn't get a proper defense during his trial and ran into the most bias at every stage of the judicial process.

[RebeccaFog]

I am all for capital punishment. Someone who commits a murder does not have the right to keep their own life. I say 2 appeals maximum for a death sentence, and then if still found guilty the sentence should be carried out. No more of this 25 years of appeals stuff.

Im sure many more will get on here and start whining about the poor innocent people who might die for a crime not committed. We all know that has happened in rare instances, but prisons are full of innocent people. You just have to ask them. Theyll tell you.

Basically the death penalty is a deterrent more than a punishment. Someone would think much longer and harder about murdering someone else if they knew that the crime would lead to their own death.

God did not tolerate murder in the Old Testament, and He never changes. Our own tolerance as a society has gotten us to where we are today.

Too many times people try to tie this subj with another that I wont even say because I dont wish for the thread to get hijacked. The two just simply are not the same.

When a criminal makes the choice to end another persons life, they deserve the maximum sentence allowed by the laws of the state (or province or country for our posters outside the US) in which the crime took place. In one of the states I am familiar with, that is death by lethal injection. With this, the accused is likely receiving more mercy than their victim.

Hi Pia,

   I'm not whining that innocent people get killed by the death penalty.  I'm whining because guilty people get killed by it. People should not kill others for any reason.

  I know what it is like to lose someone to a murder and I do not believe that anyone should kill for any reason except in defense of one's self or the defense of another human being.

  I won't lie and say that there aren't times that I'd like to kill someone. It's just wrong in my opinion.

  I don't understand why people use the bible as a source for justification of anything.  It was written by primitive people who were attempting to define themselves and create a set of laws that would work for their culture which was in an environment that was seriously nasty.  Some of their rules are harsh because they were tribal people who moved around a lot. Their resources were scarce and so they had to be what we consider brutal in some respects.

  This is not meant to put down God.  I think God is great and God does not care what we do with murderers. It is our decision. That is why we have the free will spoken of in another thread.


Katia,

  If you think we got off topic here, I can split this 'death penalty' stuff of into its own thread.  Any of my responses after this will be topic driven only.


Your friend,

Rebecca

[rhonda13000]

Is there a backstory or a specific context?

I can see from your questions you are going through a potential major change in some situation in your life, which isn't going to be instantly noticable by everyone.

I got upset a couple days ago when an avowed, heavy Christian said in this forum, "I am in favor of the death penalty", on account of my cognitive dissonance ceiling just broke. I did not post immediately however. What I did post I have no guilt about.

I don't know.

I do not wish to re-direct Katia's thread [I don't have any issues with your questions, Katia. I respect your intelligence], but why become upset at this?

Why put yourself through such emotion?

Posted on: July 07, 2007, 06:44:22 PM

  i know many christians who are in favour of the death penalty.  i;m atheist so i guess i can get away with things like that.

Well, you can call 'em that, they can call themselves whatever they like, I'm not going to contend,
but I won't be calling 'em Christians. Xtians, maybe, in a more or less sarcastic tone.

What is your standard of reference? By what are you defining Christianity?

Opinions or suppositions, are irrelevant. 

[RebeccaFog]

i always try to look at each question i choose to answer from every angle and try not to be judgmental. yet,  there are just some on here that blow the mind. ya know?

   i agree.  Personally, I try to avoid answering anything that drives my blood pressure up, or I wait a day or two and reassess my first reaction.

  I think that, sometimes, people are confused as to the context of the question and they personalize it.  I guess that's my opinion.

  That & What business is it of yours?      >   

[Nero]

Whoa. Death penalty debate.
(Nero quietly backs out of the room.)

[mavieenrose]

Whoa. Death penalty debate.
(Nero quietly backs out of the room.)

I'm with you Nero, thought I'd find out what this thread was all about and now I'm out of here.

MVER XXX

[rhonda13000]

I am all for capital punishment. Someone who commits a murder does not have the right to keep their own life. I say 2 appeals maximum for a death sentence, and then if still found guilty the sentence should be carried out. No more of this 25 years of appeals stuff.

Im sure many more will get on here and start whining about the poor innocent people who might die for a crime not committed. We all know that has happened in rare instances, but prisons are full of innocent people. You just have to ask them. Theyll tell you.

Basically the death penalty is a deterrent more than a punishment. Someone would think much longer and harder about murdering someone else if they knew that the crime would lead to their own death.

God did not tolerate murder in the Old Testament, and He never changes. Our own tolerance as a society has gotten us to where we are today.

Too many times people try to tie this subj with another that I wont even say because I dont wish for the thread to get hijacked. The two just simply are not the same.

When a criminal makes the choice to end another persons life, they deserve the maximum sentence allowed by the laws of the state (or province or country for our posters outside the US) in which the crime took place. In one of the states I am familiar with, that is death by lethal injection. With this, the accused is likely receiving more mercy than their victim.

here is my quote:

Rom 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to a king as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by Him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men.

[nodding her head]

Indeed.

Titus 3:1.

Can we change the subject to Capitol Punishment?

We're all taking a beating, courtesy of the present administration. 

[rhonda13000]

For me, discussing the death penalty on religious ground is totally pointless . . .People will take what they will from whatever religion they believe in and the argument will soon become circular (pointing to itself).

Not so. It implies that plurality represents an acceptable norm when in reality, God thinks otherwise and is Sovereign.

What He says relevant and authoritative, John 17:17.

[RebeccaFog]

Posted on: July 08, 2007, 10:30:40 AM

Whoa. Death penalty debate.
(Nero quietly backs out of the room.)

I'm with you Nero, thought I'd find out what this thread was all about and now I'm out of here.

MVER XXX

Count me out too.