How Important is "Gender"?

[retransition]

I love the statement "I am not struggling to just become something  ..  I just am".  Since starting this journey and in particular since taking hrt my discomfort has largely disappeared and I have become far more accepting, less prescriptive and open to living in the moment.  Just being is much more comfortable than struggling to stay afloat and compelled to head in a binary direction.   Accepting who I am and the opportunity to self author my life experience has been in many ways a revelation and an unexpected source of joy and excitement.  Gender is part of my identity but with all of its nuance and attendant stress I accept that it is an essence which is at the core of my identity and if I don't seek to define, capture, constrain or over think it then it is a wonder not a source of frustration and angst
Aisla

I too like insideontheoutside's "I just am" quote as well as Aisla's thoughts.   If you are too busy worrying about stuff you never are able to "just be".  I guess the only caveat I have to ask is (and I have been thinking a lot about this) as someone who does not accept the binary for yourself are there any situations where you feel it is appropriate to adhere to society's expectations of a binary?

[brianna1016]

I too like insideontheoutside's "I just am" quote as well as Aisla's thoughts.   If you are too busy worrying about stuff you never are able to "just be".  I guess the only caveat I have to ask is (and I have been thinking a lot about this) as someone who does not accept the binary for yourself are there any situations where you feel it is appropriate to adhere to society's expectations of a binary?

There are times when adhering to the binary can help with acquiring things, appeasing people, or avoiding confrontation. I'm very much starting to enjoy this gender fluid concept!

[retransition]

There are times when adhering to the binary can help with acquiring things, appeasing people, or avoiding confrontation. I'm very much starting to enjoy this gender fluid concept!

I think as long as you are respecting other people's boundaries you should be able to present however you wish.

[insideontheoutside]

I too like insideontheoutside's "I just am" quote as well as Aisla's thoughts.   If you are too busy worrying about stuff you never are able to "just be".  I guess the only caveat I have to ask is (and I have been thinking a lot about this) as someone who does not accept the binary for yourself are there any situations where you feel it is appropriate to adhere to society's expectations of a binary?

For me personally I feel that not declaring to everyone, "I am male" is my own kind of acquiescence. From a legal standpoint, my documentation declares I'm "female". My documentation does not define who I really am though. It's just paperwork ... a mere technicality. That and utilizing gendered public spaces (restrooms, spas ...) is probably the only way I "conform" (not a fan of that word haha) to binary society.

[retransition]

For me personally I feel that not declaring to everyone, "I am male" is my own kind of acquiescence.

So you are saying that because you don't choose to declare something, that does not mean that you have renounced it either, right? (If not please correct me.)

I was thinking about saying a few other things in the DBT thread as a response to you so maybe I will say them here instead.
When someone says they are "male" - their definition of what it means to be male is going to always be unique to their own experience and perceptions. Of course there are common characteristics that we can all agree most males share, but when you are defining the essence of what "maleness" means for you - your answer is going to be yours alone, just as my definition is mine alone.

A (possibly) related side-story. I can remember specifically the last time I felt myself self-identifying as a "female". It was actually very close to the start of my retransition.  I was in a trans support group, mosty MTF, and everyone was talking about getting facial feminization surgery or learning how to change their mannerisms and all the usual stuff.  And I can remember thinking - I don't want any of that stuff - I just want to "be". I don't need any of that to be who I am.  In a way that was the most "feminine" I ever felt - the decision to sort of walk away.

And then, as time went by, I began to realize that what I had been calling my "female gender identity" wasn't really "female" at all.  It was just myself at my most pure and honest.  I didn't need to "assign" it a gender identity, in fact, feeling the need to assign it ANY label (even if it was just a private self-declaration) was actually limiting. 

That is the part of me that I am still trying to cultivate and grow, just as so many other travellers of life's journey have also done.  I feel that it is a part of me (and all of us) that is beyond anything as relatively trivial as gender.

[ThePhoenix]

POLITICALLY INCORRECT CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT WARNING

A (possibly) related side-story. I can remember specifically the last time I felt myself self-identifying as a "female". It was actually very close to the start of my retransition.  I was in a trans support group, mosty MTF, and everyone was talking about getting facial feminization surgery or learning how to change their mannerisms and all the usual stuff.  And I can remember thinking - I don't want any of that stuff - I just want to "be". I don't need any of that to be who I am.  In a way that was the most "feminine" I ever felt - the decision to sort of walk away.

And then, as time went by, I began to realize that what I had been calling my "female gender identity" wasn't really "female" at all.  It was just myself at my most pure and honest.  I didn't need to "assign" it a gender identity, in fact, feeling the need to assign it ANY label (even if it was just a private self-declaration) was actually limiting. 

In this post, you have pretty much nailed something about the transgender community that I have struggled with since the 1990s without resolving.  I often see trans* people trying to learn to act a certain way, alter their mannerisms, and so on.  I see this overwhelmingly with transwomen and a lot less with transmen.  The result seems to be a person who is placed in a situation and when you interact with them, it's like there is a barely perceptible delay where the person thinks about what sort of mannerism is appropriate in the situation and then consciously employs it.  It is very much like a person pretending or mimicking or putting in an affectation.

It has always seemed to me that part of the secret to passing, or to just being in the world, is to just be.  This, on the other hand, seems like someone is pretending.  I cannot imagine that it would be comfortable.  And I find myself wondering what is the point of going through something as profound and life altering as transition if the person cannot just be real at the end of it.

I have had trans* people say to me that I will never understand because of how naturally everything about being a woman comes to me.  Well, okay . . . but trying to be a guy certainly did not come naturally to me.  But I still never took lessons on manner and such.  I just tried to just be and just be real.  Even if it did lead to awkward moments (as in, "Okay, I want to know something.  How come you can do girltalk?"). 

So why can't we all just be real no matter where on the spectrum we fall?  If you're going to do all I'd this, then doesn't it sort of defeat the point to do something that makes you seem obviously fake?

[bingunginter]

In this post, you have pretty much nailed something about the transgender community that I have struggled with since the 1990s without resolving.  I often see trans* people trying to learn to act a certain way, alter their mannerisms, and so on.  I see this overwhelmingly with transwomen and a lot less with transmen.  The result seems to be a person who is placed in a situation and when you interact with them, it's like there is a barely perceptible delay where the person thinks about what sort of mannerism is appropriate in the situation and then consciously employs it.  It is very much like a person pretending or mimicking or putting in an affectation.

What if they aspire to have specific mannerism ? I believe with proper training, you can train your mannerism to be second nature. If they succeed, would you think their life would be more convenient in this binary society ?

[insideontheoutside]

So you are saying that because you don't choose to declare something, that does not mean that you have renounced it either, right? (If not please correct me.)

I was thinking about saying a few other things in the DBT thread as a response to you so maybe I will say them here instead.
When someone says they are "male" - their definition of what it means to be male is going to always be unique to their own experience and perceptions. Of course there are common characteristics that we can all agree most males share, but when you are defining the essence of what "maleness" means for you - your answer is going to be yours alone, just as my definition is mine alone.

I can not renounce being myself. I've never tried to change my mannerisms or the way I talk or walk or any of that (I have more to say about this in general in a minute ...). I use the terms male and female because that's what everyone has grown up with and that's what society uses. When it comes right down to it, in my head, I am simply myself. Plenty of people around me have determined I am more "male" simply because of the way I am. So it's a bit of a validation I guess, but I didn't use other people's opinions/observations to come up with my personal identity. Most people, having not ever felt they weren't their assigned-at-birth gender, like to put things in either the male or the female box. When things (or people) don't fit into other's preconceived notions of gender it can cause them confusion. How they react to that confusion is the real kicker.

Having said that, I no longer am too concerned about causing others confusion. But, a lot of people DO care about that. Hence the need for a lot of trans people to conform ... to change their mannerisms ... to go out of their way (up to and including risky surgery) to fit other's notions so that it does not cause them or the other people discomfort, etc. There's also a way that the concept of "just be yourself" (warning ... my opinion again ...) can be perverted so that, for instance, a 6'2" male-bodied person with a beard and chest hair and a deep voice can NOT be a woman. What is this person to do then? Most likely, they feel like crap because they feel they can not be themselves because they do not look the part. It comes to a point where they feel they will do anything to look the part (surgery, etc.) and if they can't, they'd rather be dead. Very sad and tragic situation. But one of the root causes of the situation is that this person can not be a woman in society simply because of looks (not going to get heavily into dysphoria as I know that comes into play, which is why I said the aforementioned is just ONE of the root causes, but dysphoria is a personal thing, not something society sees). It goes the other way too. A female-bodied person with 38D chest, curves like a 50's pinup, 5' tall and high-pitched voice can feel just as bad because they feel they could never be male in society. And now, what I see in the trans community (and the medical community that treats them) is so much emphasis being placed on treatment and not enough emphasis being placed on truly being oneself and on making room in society for the variations. Because "she looks like a man" and "he looks like a woman" is still derogatory statements in most of our society, this puts even more pressure on a trans person to "conform" and look the way they're "supposed to look" by society's standard. If they don't after treatment and they're still holding on to that and being told by other people they don't look like the gender they feel they are, it's still going to cause them problems until they can find a way to build inner confidence and actually be themselves, regardless of what society thinks. 

Personally, I also feel this is more detrimental in the long run for all of us who don't fit in society's boxes and have rejected standard "treatment" for it. It perpetuates bias and discrimination and does not lead to overall acceptance. A perfect example of this is people "accepting" trans people ... but only if they go "the whole way" (surgeries, transition, etc.) and then quietly live their lives as their "proper" gender (of course they must look like it too ... they can't be an ugly woman after all because then she'll "look like a man" again... /sarcasm). So basically, nothing in between is tolerated any more.

This is my opinion of course. I'm not really anti binary. What I would say is that I'm pro variation and I'm anti changing yourself for other people or changing yourself to fit in other people's boxes. If you've done your soul searching and you really want to walk more like a woman, then change that. People change things about themselves all the time. Don't have straight teeth? Get braces. Broke your nose? Get plastic surgery. Tired of your frumpy mom jeans and the rest of your closet? Consult with a stylist and get a new wardrobe. Don't like your job? Get a new one. We have, literally, millions of choices we can make throughout our lives. Those of us that fall outside the normal gender definitions have some additional choices. But at the end of the day, I feel the best choices are made after searching ourselves for answers and turning away from the majority or society. The exception is when you make choices because of those you deeply love or care about in life or make selfless choices to help others. That's just the way I think about it.

[ThePhoenix]

What if they aspire to have specific mannerism ?

Then they should go for it. 

I believe with proper training, you can train your mannerism to be second nature.

I'm sure it is theoretically possible.  But I have never seen anyone with consciously taught mannerisms that seemed natural. 

I think part of what happens is a tendency of people to train themselves to exaggerated feminine mannerisms that end up coming off as some sort of parody of womanhood rather than authentic.  Honestly, one can see why ciswomen would find some transwomen to be insulting in what they think a woman is.  Heavens, there are some that I find offensive (or at least bizarre) too. 

I'm sorry, but calling me "girl" in every other sentence or calling everyone "honey" in every sentence does not come across as natural.  Basically if drag performers do it on stage, then it does not make one blend in.  And there are a lot of trans* people who seem more like drag performers.  The ones who do so do not seem natural.

I guess perhaps a lot of it comes down to trying too hard to do something that has to be done unconsciously, without deliberate effort.

If they succeed, would you think their life would be more convenient in this binary society ?

Depends on what they succeeded at.  Your hypothetical was about acquiring a certain mannerism.  I'd imagine that life would be hard if they consistently came across as a drag queen.  If they actually learned natural, typical, societally accepted female mannerisms, I'm sure it would help them.

But the only ones I have ever encountered who seemed to have any success at this were the ones who didn't try.  They would just be, whatever that meant. 

In saying this, I'm mindful that I am the worst person to address the issue.  Because for me it all feels like coming home after a long trip.  Everything feels exactly right and fits.  Even the crap I get (like the guys who are shocked that I can play chess) is exactly the right crap.  So there's really not much adjustment involved for me as there must be for most people.  And so I am a very poor source of transition advice. 

The only advice I feel comfortable giving is that anyone who wants to just blend in would be well advised to befriend and hang out with some ciswomen.  Society has some weird ideas about women.   And people who are raised as (ostensibly) men tend to inherit those same ideas.  Ciswomen have a lot more practice at living on their side if the fence than any transwoman.  So if you are a transwoman and want to learn about what women really are like and what their lives are really like, they are a very good place to go to get a little peak in the window at the other side's reality.

[bingunginter]

I'm sure it is theoretically possible.  But I have never seen anyone with consciously taught mannerisms that seemed natural.

It routinely happen in sports or dance. They learn a highly complex movement that become second nature, so much so that they don't have to think about it. It just flows.

I think part of what happens is a tendency of people to train themselves to exaggerated feminine mannerisms that end up coming off as some sort of parody of womanhood rather than authentic.  Honestly, one can see why ciswomen would find some transwomen to be insulting in what they think a woman is.  Heavens, there are some that I find offensive too. 

Well it might be that feminine mannerisms that you call exaggerate is really is what they prefer. They might think that that mannerism is beauty. I think we shouldn't judge them.

[ThePhoenix]

It routinely happen in sports or dance. They learn a highly complex movement that become second nature, so much so that they don't have to think about it. It just flows.

I used to be a semi-decent tennis player.  I found that there was a distinct difference between the way I would play tennis versus the way I would be at dinner, for example.  The dinner behavior really was a totally different level of naturalness.  But of course it is also possible that, since I was never much of an athlete or dancer, I might not have been skilled enough to entirely grasp what you are saying.

Well it might be that feminine mannerisms that you call exaggerate is really is what they prefer. They might think that that mannerism is beauty. I think we shouldn't judge them.

I agree.  Different strokes for different folks.  But I thought we were talking about people who were trying to learn to blend in to the larger cis world.  I accidentally tapped "post" on my iPad before I intended to finish that last post, and I modified it to include the rest of what I was trying to say, not expecting that anyone would respond while I was still writing.  But hopefully the rest of what I said made clear this assumption.

[retransition]

POLITICALLY INCORRECT CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT WARNING

The result seems to be a person who is placed in a situation and when you interact with them, it's like there is a barely perceptible delay where the person thinks about what sort of mannerism is appropriate in the situation and then consciously employs it.  It is very much like a person pretending or mimicking or putting in an affectation.

I have noticed this too with some people and it is really kind of sad when you think about it. It is yet another layer that I believe keeps some trans people disconnected from others. Although, as you said, it is almost imperceptible it still can exist and thus function as yet another isolating barrier between a trans person and the "outside world".  There are too many of these.

Of course, bigunginter is right, just about EVERYONE is editing and cultivating their persona based on how they would like to be seen. Being a bunch of humans, that is kind of what we do.  And obviously we don't just have one persona, or "self".  It goes without saying that we have, for instance, our "playing tennis self" in which we allow ourselves to do certain things that we probably would want to edit out from our "dining partner self".  Our voices, movements, attitudes and personalities can be quite different between the two.  And, I think, most people are ok with that. As everyone who posted in this thread said today, changing things about ourselves that we don't like is, in itself, a natural human behavior.  It is a part of adapting and growing into ourselves. 

Here's the thing though - although these changes can sometimes appear to be radical - as long as they serve the purpose of helping someone achieve a fuller realization of who they already are I think these are usually healthy changes.  Where it gets messy is when these changes do not serve who you really are but are instead a set of arbitrary regulations and affectations that are in no way natural to who you are.  Again, this doesn't just apply to trans people - this is quite common and I think most of us struggle with it at various points in our lives. It can sometimes be very hard to tell the difference between striving to make changes that enhance who one actually is as opposed to changes that serve as an attempt to negate who one is.   We are doing this (albeit on a much smaller scale) in the decisions we make on a daily basis.  Sometimes we get it wrong but (hopefully) most of the time we get it right.  And, USUALLY, it doesn't matter very much either way because you are soon on to the next thing. For example, if someone walks in on me watching TV, since it is too late to hid the fact that I like to watch TV I will probably at least try to change the channel to PBS or the news or something that reflects how I want people to perceive my tastes. I will then patiently wait that person out until they leave the room and I can go back to watching "World's Dumbest Partiers Part 14".
But when you are talking about modifying the behavior to the degree that some who undertake this gender transition stuff do, then it can get really difficult.  If it feels like a good fit or you find it enhancing you, then all is well.  But sometimes it isn't a fit, it is just a new kind of prison.  It isn't natural.  It isn't Tao. It is a round peg trying to go into a square hole.  Like you said about how the most important thing about "passing" is often just to "be" - when someone has an awkward affectation going on it is usually pretty easy to "read", even if it is on a subliminal level that something isn't quite right.  If this affectation was serving the person employing it well I would of course say "no harm no foul" but again, I think in some cases it is holding that person back from being engaged fully in the world.

[retransition]

What I would say is that I'm pro variation and I'm anti changing yourself for other people or changing yourself to fit in other people's boxes. If you've done your soul searching and you really want to walk more like a woman, then change that. People change things about themselves all the time.

I hope to find time tomorrow to write a few things about your post, as I thought it was really good.   But I will say that I too have been thinking recently about how a lot of the talk about "gender identity" and the importance of being "true to yourself" is not learning to be ok with who you are - it is often about trying to get others to validate your choice of gender identity expression. And again, when this happens organically or with only the slightest of nudging against societal values and expectations I can't see any harm in this. But at some point it becomes a matter of diminishing returns when so much effort is being expended on imposing mandatory affirmation of a prefered gender identity through legislation, social shaming for misgendering someone, etc.  Yes you can fight to get the F or M marker changed on your drivers license (and I am not saying that isn't important) but if you do that and your perceived gender identity is still not your prefered gender identity most of the time what good does that really do?  And again, I can't help but wonder why (to borrow your example) the  6'2" bearded natal-male-sexed self-identified "woman" can't find ways to be express this "womanhood" in ways other than just through documentation.  I know that it is complicated. There are pressures from within the trans community to "go all the way" and there are also pressures from society that "a man can't walk like that" but I do wonder if it is possible that we can get to the point where more trans people's priorities can shift away from settling for legal validation (but in many cases social rejection) of their preferred gender identity towards something that is more affirming on a human level. Once you stop talking about "gender identity" it becomes more invisible and thus less of a barrier preventing human interaction and relationships to develop.

[helen2010]

Loving this discussion. Great insight ... I agree that there is a lot of pressure to conform with community (and the tg community is no different), norms and expectations.  Being non binary is uncomfortable for the FTA, MTA, GQ person etc but it is often more uncomfortable for those trying to classify us using their normal taxonomy.

Trying to express, experience or be something "on a human level" which is meaningful to me as the traveller rather than as an actor forced to choose between 1 of 2 roles (M or F) with which the audience finds greater comfort is to me being authentic.  Dressing, speaking or indeed any affectation which is designed to engage with the audience rather than to best express my spirit is to me inauthentic.

My issue is therefore this, why should I be expected to swap one uniform for another, one legal classification for another when neither truly capture me as I currently am, never mind how I may currently become?  I am proud to be tg and I value choice and authenticity.  Swapping one gender marker for another doesn't work for me.  Indeed it seems to be as you suggest that legal validation over a more nuanced and complex self expression is indeed a barrier to genuine, authentic and human interaction.

[ThePhoenix]

But when you are talking about modifying the behavior to the degree that some who undertake this gender transition stuff do, then it can get really difficult.  If it feels like a good fit or you find it enhancing you, then all is well.  But sometimes it isn't a fit, it is just a new kind of prison.  It isn't natural.  It isn't Tao. It is a round peg trying to go into a square hole.  Like you said about how the most important thing about "passing" is often just to "be" - when someone has an awkward affectation going on it is usually pretty easy to "read", even if it is on a subliminal level that something isn't quite right.  If this affectation was serving the person employing it well I would of course say "no harm no foul" but again, I think in some cases it is holding that person back from being engaged fully in the world.

Thank you.  This is what I was trying to get at, but you said it a lot better.

[insideontheoutside]

I hope to find time tomorrow to write a few things about your post, as I thought it was really good.   But I will say that I too have been thinking recently about how a lot of the talk about "gender identity" and the importance of being "true to yourself" is not learning to be ok with who you are - it is often about trying to get others to validate your choice of gender identity expression. And again, when this happens organically or with only the slightest of nudging against societal values and expectations I can't see any harm in this. But at some point it becomes a matter of diminishing returns when so much effort is being expended on imposing mandatory affirmation of a prefered gender identity through legislation, social shaming for misgendering someone, etc.  Yes you can fight to get the F or M marker changed on your drivers license (and I am not saying that isn't important) but if you do that and your perceived gender identity is still not your prefered gender identity most of the time what good does that really do?  And again, I can't help but wonder why (to borrow your example) the  6'2" bearded natal-male-sexed self-identified "woman" can't find ways to be express this "womanhood" in ways other than just through documentation.  I know that it is complicated. There are pressures from within the trans community to "go all the way" and there are also pressures from society that "a man can't walk like that" but I do wonder if it is possible that we can get to the point where more trans people's priorities can shift away from settling for legal validation (but in many cases social rejection) of their preferred gender identity towards something that is more affirming on a human level. Once you stop talking about "gender identity" it becomes more invisible and thus less of a barrier preventing human interaction and relationships to develop.

As far as I can tell through my own observations on the boards here, you are right in that the phrase "being true to yourself" does not = being okay with who you are and instead is more about getting everyone else to validate your identity. I have seen time and time again in trans community and forums people making statements to the effect of "you have to be true to yourself ... You have to transition". And it's usually followed up by something like forget your family, etc, you have to do what's best for you alone and transition.

Why I was one of the people who made such a ruckus to create this new non-transitioning board was because I knew there had to be other people out there who were questioning if medical and social transition was the ONLY way and what if you didn't want that even though you might have a different personal gender ID than your physical body?

I agree that this particular thread is a great discussion that is exploring something much deeper than physical looks and what society deems is male or female.

And I especially am interested in your viewpoint, retransition, since you've already been down that path, had your own revelations and have come back. While I realize everyone is on their own personal journey, I think it's important to actually see/read about others experiences.

[sad panda]

POLITICALLY INCORRECT CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT WARNING

In this post, you have pretty much nailed something about the transgender community that I have struggled with since the 1990s without resolving.  I often see trans* people trying to learn to act a certain way, alter their mannerisms, and so on.  I see this overwhelmingly with transwomen and a lot less with transmen.  The result seems to be a person who is placed in a situation and when you interact with them, it's like there is a barely perceptible delay where the person thinks about what sort of mannerism is appropriate in the situation and then consciously employs it.  It is very much like a person pretending or mimicking or putting in an affectation.

It has always seemed to me that part of the secret to passing, or to just being in the world, is to just be.  This, on the other hand, seems like someone is pretending.  I cannot imagine that it would be comfortable.  And I find myself wondering what is the point of going through something as profound and life altering as transition if the person cannot just be real at the end of it.

I have had trans* people say to me that I will never understand because of how naturally everything about being a woman comes to me.  Well, okay . . . but trying to be a guy certainly did not come naturally to me.  But I still never took lessons on manner and such.  I just tried to just be and just be real.  Even if it did lead to awkward moments (as in, "Okay, I want to know something.  How come you can do girltalk?"). 

So why can't we all just be real no matter where on the spectrum we fall?  If you're going to do all I'd this, then doesn't it sort of defeat the point to do something that makes you seem obviously fake?

Mmh, I really don't think it is always this easy. I can't exactly say I identify with what you posted, I never teally understood actually intentionally trying to learn a specific set of new mannerisms or whatever, just that I wanted to give a different perspective? May be completely out of the norm but.

For me, a lot of transition was trying to find out who I am in the first place. It sort of naturally happened, which sounds weird, but I was never a person who would say I had a gender identity. I just sort of accepted a view that some people had of me and continued down that path. But I really didn't know before, at all. Actually I still don't, but I think I got closer somehow... and only a little of that is about gender. What I managed to learn about myself was actually not from where I fit in or how well I was accepted, but from what I found myself instinctively pushing back against. What I found myself worried about and uncomfortable with. Some of those things cis people struggle with too... will I stand out too much if I act intelligent? Will people hate me if I'm not always bubbly? It's embarrassing that I have X problem. It's invalidating if I don't know how to do X. I want people to like me so I will start doing X. I don't want people to think I'm like X so I will avoid being like that. I had these problems pre-transition, I have them after, and I know I would have them if I detransitioned again.

The result is that outwardly, the person I was before is different in a lot of ways than the person I am now. And I still don't know if that's me. It's not obvious and it never has been. I struggle back and forth with which gender I actually want to be almost daily. People in my life say female and even will argue that point with me when I want to be a boy, but would they say male if that's how they met me? I don't actually know. All my life experience as a boy is from childhood. And my presentation which is as a pretty conventional girl in spite of that isn't fake either, but it's also not real? Does that make any sense? Some of it is me and some of it is me accepting society and just trying to get by in a world that doesn't let everyone be exactly themselves. I don't know if everyone appreciates that feeling. I will have to give up or keep to myself some parts of me no matter what I do in life.

So, hrmm, again, this may not at all be most people's experience, but I guess I'm just trying to say that people do what they do for a lot of reasons and even just knowing who you are and what is most natural to you can be frustrating and confusing. And even if you do, it could be a fact of life that you have to diminish or embellish parts of yourself no matter who or what you are presenting as. I don't know. Just my 2c.


Edit: oh, I also thought of something I wanted to add that I think is important re: the mtf/ftm difference in being yourself. You do have to consider that the main segment of the trans community that experiences regular discrimination for being trans is MTFs. It's hard for anyone to be trans, but FTMs for the most part do get to keep the dignity of being perceived as a cis person (even if it's not their preferred gender) in casual encounters thru their entire transition, unless they choose otherwise, right up until they pass as male, though a lot of FTMs don't emphasize passing or presentation and their transition is more of a personal journey. Going in they also tend to have better support systems than MTFs from what I have seen, and trans spaces that are frequented by FTMs more than MTFs seem more identity-diverse and aware (like tumblr) But yeah, for those of the mtf community who end up having to live as visibly trans to everyone they meet, or everyone who even sees them walking down the street, that must be an incredibly invalidating battle on a daily basis. It's probably only natural they would do whatever they could to try and pass better or be treated more like a human being, maybe even knowing that part of it is an act or unfamiliar. Sorry if I am wrong on any of those points and please correct me if I am, I just thought it was important to mention that :s

[Taka]

i'm not sure how much easier it is to be ftm. sure, an mtf could easily be thought to be totally crazy by society. but ftm is just a woman with an inferiority complex and penis envy, and often also a threat to any male ego. and the risk of rape exists for them too, it's just not always followed by a thorough beating. both have their own problems, and i don't think either has more or less problems than the other.


i'm ending up liking this discussion. so many interesting views on gender.
to me, gender doesn't matter in a way that makes me feel like i need a paper that say i am Y rather than X. it wouldn't even matter if i got that piece of legal recognition, because i've already decided to stay in a society where i'll probably forever be "female" no matter what i do. many have known me since grade school after all...

so, i've kind of given up on social transition. it's not worth the effort to be recognized as something that is still not really me, though less of the wrongest choice. but i'll still pursue medical transition, because it's somewhat important to me that i can feel comfortable in my own skin, and right now, i don't.

i did think for quite a while about changing mannerisms and stuff. try to sit more manly, talk more manly etc. but in the end... i found out that online, i'd be taken for a guy if i just type the way that feels natural to me. so apparently, the real me isn't all that girly, so why should i try to change myself... the only changes i will make, is to get rid of studied behavior that is actually not natural to me. like the "good girl" act that's mostly a bunch of rather damaging behavior, it never got me anything of what i wanted, i only avoided being yelled at even more by my parents.

i'm pretty sure that as i get rid of all the stuff that is not me, i'll also find out more about myself, and will become able to choose which of my actual natural traits to make use of in different situations. learning to be myself rather than this doll that my parents tried to create...

[retransition]

It's hard for anyone to be trans, but FTMs for the most part do get to keep the dignity of being perceived as a cis person (even if it's not their preferred gender) in casual encounters thru their entire transition, unless they choose otherwise, right up until they pass as male, though a lot of FTMs don't emphasize passing or presentation and their transition is more of a personal journey. Going in they also tend to have better support systems than MTFs from what I have seen, and trans spaces that are frequented by FTMs more than MTFs seem more identity-diverse and aware (like tumblr)

I don't have time to write too much tonight but I share Taka's skepticism that being FTM is necessarily easier than being MTF.  Maybe some FTMs have an easier time than some MTFs but then again some MTFs have it easier than some FTMs.  Each experience is unique.  And even though as FTMs and MTFs (or "formers") we have a lot in common - there are some fundamental differences between the FTM experience vs the MTF experience that you really can't make a direct comparison between in terms of "easiness".  They are different and equally hard.  It really is apples and oranges.

[retransition]

i'm pretty sure that as i get rid of all the stuff that is not me, i'll also find out more about myself

Nice post. Really quick I will say that, for me, letting go of a lot of stuff that wasn't me, and also clearing out a lot of the "mental space" that transition and gender were occupying in my head, only now have I come to some really important realizations about myself that I could never see before because they were buried under all the gender stuff.