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Am I? I guess I am.

Started by Seshatneferw, July 13, 2007, 10:11:13 AM

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Seshatneferw

The last couple of weeks were a pretty interesting vacation, in terms of self-knowledge. Nero's thread on non-treated GID prompted me to think on things, and that's what I did.

I'm still not entirely sure how to label myself. I'm pretty much convinved that I have a female gender identity, to the extent that I'd really love to have my body match it. It doesn't, though, and I'm not (and probably never will be) sufficiently distressed to do anything drastic. By some interpretations, the former would qualify me as TS; by some interpretations, the latter would disqualify me. Myself, I've come to the conclusion that I really shouldn't care about the labelling.

Socially, I'm something of a mix. In school and later during the year I spent in the military, it became increasingly evident that I didn't fit traditional male roles. On the other hand, that didn't seem my main issue at the time: I didn't really know what to do with myself in other respects either, so it was very easy to dismiss the gender issues as just another aspect of a more general identity crisis. I was just an introverted guy who liked to do all manner of nerdy things that didn't involve interacting with other people. And of course it was normal for a boy to want to be a girl -- all the boys in my sample of one felt that way.  :)

Since then, I've spent the last twenty years or so constructing an identity that is mainly based on a view of myself as the permanent semi-outsider. On a lot of axes I can identify with both extremes at the same time. It's often very useful, but it also means it's hard to fit in completely: while I'm able to relate to the people I'm with, on some level I'll always view myself as a member of the other side.

Now, with regard to the gender issue, I used to consider myself neutral, in the sense of not having a strong identity either way. A few months ago it hit me that that's not really true: while I'm comfortably in the middle in most social respects, I do have a preference about intimately personal issues such as my body, and that preference is undeniably female. This means I'm a transsexual, right? That's what I thought, but looking at things a bit further I've come to the conclusion that I don't fit in there, either.

I started to try to figure out just how far and fast I'd need to go transition-wise, and the initial reaction to descriptions (and pictures) of various SRS options was a clear 'I want that!' However, having looked into my thoughts and feelings rather deeply  in the last couple of months, I'm not so sure any more. Yes, various medical procedures would bring my body closer to what I think it should be, but not nearly all the way. I am in no way sure that in my case HRT and SRS would be worth the risks and side effects. I'm still seriously considering more minor procedures, though, such as getting rid of some extra body hair, or attempting to get my hairline closer to where it used to be.

As I said, socially I'm already somewhere between the two extremes. More to the point, I'm also quite comfortable there and see no reason to make significant changes in what I do or how I present myself in everyday life. In this respect a transition would really change my outward presentation from a man with a noticeable feminine side into a woman with a noticeable masculine side. Either way, I'd still be seen as sitting pretty squarely on the fence between the two genders (not that it would be too remarkable in either case).

So, all in all, I guess it's time to admit that I'm somewhere in between. I don't recognise myself in any of the androgyne sub-types that have been discussed here, though. My gender identity is different from my physical sex and social upbringing, but I believe I can even in the long term be comfortable where I am. To expand the usual metaphor, I'm a woman imprisoned in a man's body, but such an old jail bird that I would no longer adapt to being freed. Whether that makes me an androgyne is a matter of definition, but I don't think I could contest it any more.

  Nfr
Whoopee! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but it's a long one for me.
-- Pete Conrad, Apollo XII
  •  

RebeccaFog


Hi,

   That's kind of where I'm at. I'm going with androgyne because I've been interpreting it as a sub category of transgendered.  I was thinking I have no gender, but I can't prove that.  No masculinity for me. I have to assume that what I have is feminine because my biggest traits are not wanting to hurt others and wanting people to get along and work together well.  But, what if it's not truly feminine? What if it's the default if no gender is present?

   I'm going mainly with transgendered then with androgyne in order to establish I'm not a TS.

   Yesterday, when I was with my gender therapist, I was totally uncertain of what I feel or how I see myself. I told her that I'd like to look like Winona Ryder, but I don't care if my body is male or female.

    So, what the hell is that?  :P
  •  

Shana A

I still feel as though I don't really know the answer. I came out as transgender in 1993, did over a year rlt living as woman, and while this felt much more natural to me than male, I ultimately didn't proceed any further. I've been somewhere in between or neither gender ever since then. If I weren't concerned about potential long term health risks of hormones, I'd probably take them, as others have posted, I'd prefer having female characteristics. While androgyne fits better than most other words, I also don't always feel that I fit that 100%. Perhaps even that is an aspect of being androgyne.

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

Kendall

Quote from: Seshatneferw on July 13, 2007, 10:11:13 AM
The last couple of weeks were a pretty interesting vacation, in terms of self-knowledge. Nero's thread on non-treated GID prompted me to think on things, and that's what I did.

Havent read that thread, and from what I see at the first 2 posts its not for me.

Quote
I'm still not entirely sure how to label myself. I'm pretty much convinved that I have a female gender identity, to the extent that I'd really love to have my body match it. It doesn't, though, and I'm not (and probably never will be) sufficiently distressed to do anything drastic. By some interpretations, the former would qualify me as TS; by some interpretations, the latter would disqualify me. Myself, I've come to the conclusion that I really shouldn't care about the labelling.

So do you want to be a girl? Or I should re-question it more appropriate. Are you a girl? And are you just waiting for distress before you do anything? I am not talking about body. But you, your self. Most of the androgyne labels either accept both gender identities or reject both on a permanent basis, if that helps any. Just something to ponder. I am not one to diagnose, label, or define.

Quote
Socially, I'm something of a mix. In school and later during the year I spent in the military, it became increasingly evident that I didn't fit traditional male roles. On the other hand, that didn't seem my main issue at the time: I didn't really know what to do with myself in other respects either, so it was very easy to dismiss the gender issues as just another aspect of a more general identity crisis. I was just an introverted guy who liked to do all manner of nerdy things that didn't involve interacting with other people. And of course it was normal for a boy to want to be a girl -- all the boys in my sample of one felt that way.  :)

Since then, I've spent the last twenty years or so constructing an identity that is mainly based on a view of myself as the permanent semi-outsider. On a lot of axes I can identify with both extremes at the same time. It's often very useful, but it also means it's hard to fit in completely: while I'm able to relate to the people I'm with, on some level I'll always view myself as a member of the other side.

What kind of identity did you construct? And what do you mean by construct? And what do you mean by always a member of the other side?

Quote
Now, with regard to the gender issue, I used to consider myself neutral, in the sense of not having a strong identity either way. A few months ago it hit me that that's not really true: while I'm comfortably in the middle in most social respects, I do have a preference about intimately personal issues such as my body, and that preference is undeniably female. This means I'm a transsexual, right? That's what I thought, but looking at things a bit further I've come to the conclusion that I don't fit in there, either.

I started to try to figure out just how far and fast I'd need to go transition-wise, and the initial reaction to descriptions (and pictures) of various SRS options was a clear 'I want that!' However, having looked into my thoughts and feelings rather deeply  in the last couple of months, I'm not so sure any more. Yes, various medical procedures would bring my body closer to what I think it should be, but not nearly all the way. I am in no way sure that in my case HRT and SRS would be worth the risks and side effects. I'm still seriously considering more minor procedures, though, such as getting rid of some extra body hair, or attempting to get my hairline closer to where it used to be.

So your saying you are female and want a female body, but cant for some reason because of risks and side effects like a medical condition?

Quote
As I said, socially I'm already somewhere between the two extremes. More to the point, I'm also quite comfortable there and see no reason to make significant changes in what I do or how I present myself in everyday life. In this respect a transition would really change my outward presentation from a man with a noticeable feminine side into a woman with a noticeable masculine side. Either way, I'd still be seen as sitting pretty squarely on the fence between the two genders (not that it would be too remarkable in either case).

This confused me, the word comfort,  compared to what was said above.

Quote
So, all in all, I guess it's time to admit that I'm somewhere in between. I don't recognise myself in any of the androgyne sub-types that have been discussed here, though. My gender identity is different from my physical sex and social upbringing, but I believe I can even in the long term be comfortable where I am. To expand the usual metaphor, I'm a woman imprisoned in a man's body, but such an old jail bird that I would no longer adapt to being freed. Whether that makes me an androgyne is a matter of definition, but I don't think I could contest it any more.

Do you want, enjoy, feel natural, dream, hope, and feel the desire to be in between?

Ken/Kendra
  •  

RebeccaFog

Quote from: zythyra on July 13, 2007, 01:02:33 PM
I still feel as though I don't really know the answer. I came out as transgender in 1993, did over a year rlt living as woman, and while this felt much more natural to me than male, I ultimately didn't proceed any further. I've been somewhere in between or neither gender ever since then. If I weren't concerned about potential long term health risks of hormones, I'd probably take them, as others have posted, I'd prefer having female characteristics. While androgyne fits better than most other words, I also don't always feel that I fit that 100%. Perhaps even that is an aspect of being androgyne.

zythyra

androgyne = gender dropout
androgyne = gender reject?
androgyne = gender suspect
  •  

Shana A

Quoteandrogyne = gender dropout
androgyne = gender reject?
androgyne = gender suspect

androgyne = gender, what gender?
androgyne = why gender?
androgyne = beyond gender  :)
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

Seshatneferw

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on July 13, 2007, 03:22:46 PM
Havent read that thread, and from what I see at the first 2 posts its not for me.

The main thing for me was the question itself, and the way it prompted me to think about this from a new angle.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on July 13, 2007, 03:22:46 PM
Or I should re-question it more appropriate. Are you a girl? And are you just waiting for distress before you do anything?

On some level I am, and it fits pretty well with the way gender identity has been described. On other levels I am not -- there's much mental baggage from the past four decades as a male that I can't, or even don't want to, unlearn. In that sense I am in some respects female, in some respects male, and in yet others quite comfortably in between.

I am, or at least was, waiting for distress because most of the information available claims that someone whose gender identity does not match their body will get to that point eventually. I was never sure I was dysphoric enough to get there, and by now I'm pretty much convinced that I am not.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on July 13, 2007, 03:22:46 PM
What kind of identity did you construct? And what do you mean by construct? And what do you mean by always a member of the other side?

Mostly I mean a process of trying to do (and be) what I feel comfortable with, instead of what people expect of me. At some point it dawned on me that I really don't want to concentrate on just one thing, but instead feel the pull towards widely opposite ends in various things. Playing at different things, as opposed to growing up, if you will. Professionally this includes dicothomies like research vs. administration or science vs. humanities. It's fun, but it also means that I've never quite settled anywhere. It's often quite easy to feel 'I can work with / relate to / ejoy being with these people', but extremely hard to feel 'I really am one of them'. In some way it's being fundamentally introvert, I guess.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on July 13, 2007, 03:22:46 PM
So your saying you are female and want a female body, but cant for some reason because of risks and side effects like a medical condition?

Not quite. Yes, I'd like to have a female body, and there are no compelling medical reasons that would make it impossible. Still, I don't think that would make me happier, all things considered. It's partly that the medical procedures wouldn't be able to fix everything (bone structure, most notably), and partly the risks inherent in what is, after all, a rather radical treatment plan. And then there are lots of social changes involved, mostly ranging from inconvenient to neutral, with some distress thrown in.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on July 13, 2007, 03:22:46 PM
This confused me, the word comfort,  compared to what was said above.

What I meant is that I've managed to squiggle into a social niche where I don't need to act like someone else. I'm pretty sure I'd fit there equally well as physically female, if I could manage a perfect transition. Even in that case, though, I wouldn't fit in significantly better than I do now. Having thought about this for a while, it seems clear that there's very little in my personality that can be traced to the necessity of trying to appear a 'normal man'; apparently I gave that up early enough.

Quote from: Ken/Kendra on July 13, 2007, 03:22:46 PM
Do you want, enjoy, feel natural, dream, hope, and feel the desire to be in between?

In some senses, yes. For me it's mostly a social role; I don't feel androgyne inside. Psycho-physiologically (if such a word exists) I'm more like a gender drop-out, like the Foggy One said. I've flunked both the male and the female tests, but for different reasons.

  Nfr
Whoopee! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but it's a long one for me.
-- Pete Conrad, Apollo XII
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Kendall

Ok thanks for the additional info.

Sounds like another poll zythyra.

KK
  •  

Pica Pica

gender drop-out, damn, I didn't even notice there was a test.  :-\
  •  

RebeccaFog

Quote from: Rebis on July 13, 2007, 10:01:43 PM
Quote from: zythyra on July 13, 2007, 01:02:33 PM
While androgyne fits better than most other words, I also don't always feel that I fit that 100%. Perhaps even that is an aspect of being androgyne.

zythyra

androgyne = gender dropout
androgyne = gender reject?
androgyne = gender suspect

   I got the idea from Zythyra. The thought that feeling out of place is an actual component of a specific condition which makes one wonder if they even belong to the one group they fit in is very strange, and if true, maybe makes us a scientist's worse nightmare.
   If part of our condition is that somehow our minds refuse to accept our condition, then WTF??
   Maybe, we're so completely fluid that we're always chasing our own tides.
   
  •  

Shana A

QuoteI got the idea from Zythyra. The thought that feeling out of place is an actual component of a specific condition which makes one wonder if they even belong to the one group they fit in is very strange, and if true, maybe makes us a scientist's worse nightmare.
   If part of our condition is that somehow our minds refuse to accept our condition, then WTF??
   Maybe, we're so completely fluid that we're always chasing our own tides.

I don't know if this trait is part of being androgyne, or just my personality. I've always shed every label I'd previously identified with, while a label initially provides some insight into who I am, ultimately I feel boxed in by them and move on. It's funny, when I first changed my name, I'd get bent out of shape if someone called me by my birth name, but now, it doesn't matter very much to me, they're both just names. I still very much dislike being referred to with male pronouns though.

BTW, speaking of names, I like your new name Rebis.

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

Seshatneferw

Quote from: zythyra on July 14, 2007, 03:46:52 PM
I don't know if this trait is part of being androgyne, or just my personality.

Is there a difference? Seriously, I'm not sure.

This seems to be a personality trait that is comon to several of us, and it is closely related to why we end up here after ruling out other gender options. Perhaps we could consider a new subtype -- but that would be yet another label to eventually discard... :)

  Nfr
Whoopee! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but it's a long one for me.
-- Pete Conrad, Apollo XII
  •  

RebeccaFog

#12
Quote from: Seshatneferw on July 15, 2007, 03:09:32 AM
Quote from: zythyra on July 14, 2007, 03:46:52 PM
I don't know if this trait is part of being androgyne, or just my personality.

Is there a difference? Seriously, I'm not sure.

This seems to be a personality trait that is comon to several of us, and it is closely related to why we end up here after ruling out other gender options. Perhaps we could consider a new subtype -- but that would be yet another label to eventually discard... :)

  Nfr

We should collect all of our discarded labels and have them recycled or reclaimed. We don't want to be viewed by the others as being wasteful.
  •  

Shana A

QuoteWe should collect all of our discarded labels and have then recycled or reclaimed. We don't want to be viewed by the others as being wasteful.

Recycling is good. Anyone want to buy a used gender? I only wore it on Sundays  ;D

zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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