It's International Women's Day! Share your feminist gripe

[Ltl89]

Women can still start relationships over the age of 25 you know!   

I had a great aunt in her sixties strike up quite a romantic relationship some years after her husband died with a guy in the same age bracket.

Of course!  I like to think the best of our lives have yet to come and there is always the potential of something great to come.  All in all, FA has valid points about how society views and treats women, but I just don't want that to define me.  I suppose it's something I'll have to face one day when I age as a woman, which sucks and is unfair, but I can't let it defeat me.  We have the power to make life what we want it to be, at least that's what I'd really like to believe. 

[Nero]

I got a little upset reading this, but there is no denying the fact that there is some truth in what you say.  In any case, I'm hoping to fight against those societal standards and live a successful life in spite of them.  I mean I'd be really sad to hear that potential partners will look at me as an old lady because I'm 25. After all, people are staying single and getting married at older ages nowadays and love knows no time limit.  And I'd like to believe there are many men out there that aren't purely about youth and age, but are looking for love and compatibility.  And who would want to marry such a shallow man that cares only about looks anyway?  I guess I would just hate to think the writing is on the wall for me because of my age.  All in all, I really don't have big dreams, but I would like to have a family of my own one day and hopefully have a somewhat successful career that will allow me to live okay.  And I'm hoping that my future grad school dreams will define my chances for a successful career rather than my looks or lack of youth.  Even if society has it's issues and there are problems we must overcome, I see my worth as much more than that and I'd like to believe others will to.  The same goes for any other woman.  I just don't want to see my life as female in such bleak terms and doubt any other woman sees it that way.

Still, even if I really dislike the societal norms in your post (not your views but the ones you are complaining about), I can't deny there is truth to it.  I see how women are expected to look a certain way and it drives me crazy.  I'd like to say I'm past those expectations myself, but I'm not.  I feel it.  I know what I should look like. I see my flaws and feel the need to correct all of them. And being 25 I'm on the cusp of going from younger to older woman. It's really painful, but it shouldn't be that way.  Woman of all ages can be beautiful and worthy of the admiration of partners.  They can also be equally successful to their male counter parts and have rewarding careers.  There may be bs and social stigma that women have to put up with, but that doesn't mean we have to accept it or allow it to define us.  I'm glad to be a girl and wouldn't trade it.  I'd trade all the male privilege in the world in order to be me.   

P.S. I realize you were simply addressing issues woman face not endorsing the views in your post.  It's just that I can't see my future is such bleak terms, so I just had to respond.  You know me and my mouth by now FA, lol.

It is upsetting and bleak. That's why I mentioned it. As a young, good looking girl, I remember guys asking my age and how their face would fall when if I mentioned I was 25.  I recall the dismay when I mentioned it from both men and women, as if they were disappointed such a good looking woman was so old. It sucks but it's real. A woman is prime from about 16-25. Maybe to 30, or 35 if she's lucky. After 25, people (men and women) visibly get disappointed when hearing your age. I experienced it. And sure, good looking women probably experience this more.

But that doesn't mean life as a woman is all bad. If you're a woman, it's just one of those things. It doesn't mean you won't get a mate. You're still a woman after all. It's just that younger women are viewed as better candidates even by much older men. To be a woman is to fall into a abyss of physical and chronological worth which is every bit as constraining as behavioral constraints for men.

[Ltl89]

It is upsetting and bleak. That's why I mentioned it. As a young, good looking girl, I remember guys asking my age and how their face would fall when if I mentioned I was 25.  I recall the dismay when I mentioned it from both men and women, as if they were disappointed such a good looking woman was so old. It sucks but it's real. A woman is prime from about 16-25. Maybe to 30, or 35 if she's lucky. After 25, people (men and women) visibly get disappointed when hearing your age. I experienced it. And sure, good looking women probably experience this more.

That absolutely sucks, but I can't deny your experience.  I just really hope my dating experience won't be that bad.  I figure being a transwoman makes it tough enough to find love.  And I'm already obsessed about my body and appearance.  Now age too? Oh well, add this to the list of depressing factoids, lol.   

But that doesn't mean life as a woman is all bad. If you're a woman, it's just one of those things. It doesn't mean you won't get a mate. You're still a woman after all. It's just that younger women are viewed as better candidates even by much older men. To be a woman is to fall into a abyss of physical and chronological worth which is every bit as constraining as behavioral constraints for men.

Yeah, the whole looks and age thing has been getting to me lately, so I just get sensitive to it when it's brought up.  I'm sure you know the hurt and it sucks.  But it doesn't change the fact that it's real and impacts women.    I just hate it. 

[mandonlym]

It is upsetting and bleak. That's why I mentioned it. As a young, good looking girl, I remember guys asking my age and how their face would fall when if I mentioned I was 25.  I recall the dismay when I mentioned it from both men and women, as if they were disappointed such a good looking woman was so old. It sucks but it's real. A woman is prime from about 16-25. Maybe to 30, or 35 if she's lucky. After 25, people (men and women) visibly get disappointed when hearing your age. I experienced it. And sure, good looking women probably experience this more.

Just to contradict this slightly this hasn't been my personal experience. I'm 38 and I was 33 when I met my now ex (he was 32). I've always looked at least ten years younger so he thought I was in my early 20's and was concerned I might be too young for him. He didn't really care when he found out my real age, nor has anyone I've dated.

So in my experience, the age you seem is more important than the age you actually are, especially for transwomen since we don't have the having babies issue. At 38 now I look to a lot of people like I'm in my late 20's, which is no longer prime female territory, so over the years the amount of attention I get has gotten less. But I had that early 20's woman bloom through my mid-30's, and I didn't experience a lot of people being disappointed when they found out my actual age.

Also, keep in mind that the second puberty that comes with HRT makes transwomen look generally younger than they actually are, so that's a plus!

Though tbh, while I'm happy to date men in their 40's (the current guy is 42, and a really hot 42 , the ones I've previously dated who are now that age seem so *old* to me, and I lose my attraction for them. Especially because I have my own career and don't really care about how much money people make, I feel like I'm also in a position to evaluate based on looks.

[mandonlym]

Yeah, the whole looks and age thing has been getting to me lately, so I just get sensitive to it when it's brought up.  I'm sure you know the hurt and it sucks.  But it doesn't change the fact that it's real and impacts women.    I just hate it.

Basically as long as you're attractive (and you are) you won't have a problem dating. I'm 38 and getting a date is completely not a problem for me. It's just that as you age, fewer people are attracted to you and so you have fewer people to pick from.

The more substantial issue I see with you is confidence, and comfort about being trans. I always approach disclosure from a strong position. Being trans isn't something I'm ashamed of, and lovers I disclose to can sense that. So far, no one I've dated has rejected me for being trans (fingers crossed on the new guy). Also while we all have emotional crosses to bear, good people tend to gravitate towards the emotionally healthy, and transition can get in the way of that for a lot of people. So when I read some of your posts here, what I feel is that the emotional side requires the more difficult work rather than the physical side in terms of being able to find a long-term relationship post-transition.

[Nero]

It is upsetting and bleak. That's why I mentioned it. As a young, good looking girl, I remember guys asking my age and how their face would fall when if I mentioned I was 25.  I recall the dismay when I mentioned it from both men and women, as if they were disappointed such a good looking woman was so old. It sucks but it's real. A woman is prime from about 16-25. Maybe to 30, or 35 if she's lucky. After 25, people (men and women) visibly get disappointed when hearing your age. I experienced it. And sure, good looking women probably experience this more.

Just to contradict this slightly this hasn't been my personal experience. I'm 38 and I was 33 when I met my now ex (he was 32). I've always looked at least ten years younger so he thought I was in my early 20's and was concerned I might be too young for him. He didn't really care when he found out my real age, nor has anyone I've dated.

So in my experience, the age you seem is more important than the age you actually are, especially for transwomen since we don't have the having babies issue. At 38 now I look to a lot of people like I'm in my late 20's, which is no longer prime female territory, so over the years the amount of attention I get has gotten less. But I had that early 20's woman bloom through my mid-30's, and I didn't experience a lot of people being disappointed when they found out my actual age.

Also, keep in mind that the second puberty that comes with HRT makes transwomen look generally younger than they actually are, so that's a plus!

Though tbh, while I'm happy to date men in their 40's (the current guy is 42, and a really hot 42 , the ones I've previously dated who are now that age seem so *old* to me, and I lose my attraction for them. Especially because I have my own career and don't really care about how much money people make, I feel like I'm also in a position to evaluate based on looks.

Well, these weren't dating experiences. They were friends, acquaintances, and random people on the street. I'm just saying that generally women are most desirable within a very young bracket. And it's very restricting.  Given the choice, all other things equal, most guys will go for the younger woman. Now, if the older woman is considerably more attractive, it may be different.

[Adam (birkin)]

Yes indeed. And speaking of guys thinking you're on board because you're "one of the guys", I had one male friend (someone who presented as a bit of a SNAG) say to me many years ago "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed", I was stunned into silence. Some hours later when he was moaning about not being able to get a girlfriend I finally found my voice and let him have it. Gave him pause to think anyway. At least he never said that kind of crap around me ever again.

Wow, that's pretty bad. -_- Good for you for saying something.

[Nero]

That absolutely sucks, but I can't deny your experience.  I just really hope my dating experience won't be that bad.  I figure being a transwoman makes it tough enough to find love.  And I'm already obsessed about my body and appearance.  Now age too? Oh well, add this to the list of depressing factoids, lol.   

Yeah, the whole looks and age thing has been getting to me lately, so I just get sensitive to it when it's brought up.  I'm sure you know the hurt and it sucks.  But it doesn't change the fact that it's real and impacts women.    I just hate it. 

It is awful. Being valued primarily for your body and thus being little more than a depreciating asset. Growing up that way is even worse. Learning that you are a sum of parts. And that the best you can hope for is to make those parts more attractive. A pretty face and tits. That's it. That's you.

[Jamie D]

Youth has it's allure.  That's Nature.

Women tend to like men with broad shoulders, who are taller, narrow waist/pelvis ("V-shape"), moderate muscled, with a full head of non-gray hair.  Biology says that is a suitable potential father of children.

Men tend to like women who are shorter, with a low waist-to-hip ratio ("hour glass"), a plump bottom, and moderate breasts.  That says she is healthy enough for child-bearing.

That is not to say that other body types, ages, signs of maturity, orientations, etc, are not signals to some people.  They are.  What I listed are broad generalizations from evolutionary biologists and psychologists.

I consider 25 years old to be "youthful." 

[Nero]

Youth has it's allure.  That's Nature.

Women tend to like men with broad shoulders, who are taller, narrow waist/pelvis ("V-shape"), moderate muscled, with a full head of non-gray hair.  Biology says that is a suitable potential father of children.

Men tend to like women who are shorter, with a low waist-to-hip ratio ("hour glass"), a plump bottom, and moderate breasts.  That says she is healthy enough for child-bearing.

That is not to say that other body types, ages, signs of maturity, orientations, etc, are not signals to some people.  They are.  What I listed are broad generalizations from evolutionary biologists and psychologists.

I consider 25 years old to be "youthful."

Pretty much. But there's an age discrepancy that while may have biological roots, does not favor women. It feels like absolute ->-bleeped-<- to be born with an expiration date. I mean, sure everyone has one. Men die even earlier, but women have two expiration dates: the early one where they become invisible and cease to matter to society and death. Men have only death. Ok, maybe very old age. But from that perspective, women have three. Their biological, social, and sexual expiration date happens before middle age. Men get a lot longer.  Take a 25 year old man and a 25 year old woman. The man is seen as just getting started while the woman's already on the down cline. Men peak in value at about 40 or 50. Women at 15 or 20. It's no wonder women have an age complex.

[Ms Grace]

It is awful. Being valued primarily for your body and thus being little more than a depreciating asset. Growing up that way is even worse. Learning that you are a sum of parts. And that the best you can hope for is to make those parts more attractive. A pretty face and tits. That's it. That's you.

The big question is... what to do about it??

[Jill F]

Men who pine for the days when women "knew their place".  *gags*

[Jamie D]

In northern India, the Hindus used to have the widow throw herself on the funeral pyre of her husband (sati/sutee).

Among the Eskimos/Inuit, the old practice was for the grandmother to be placed on the ice floes when she could no longer carry her own weight.

Polygamy has always been more common than polyandry, and in some ancient cultures, the widows were killed and entombed with their dead husbands.

Of course, on the flip side, do you know why husbands die before their wives?
They want to. 

[Nero]

It is awful. Being valued primarily for your body and thus being little more than a depreciating asset. Growing up that way is even worse. Learning that you are a sum of parts. And that the best you can hope for is to make those parts more attractive. A pretty face and tits. That's it. That's you.

The big question is... what to do about it??

I don't think there is anything. Mother nature and society have decided that some people will be born as depreciating eye candy. And naturally, that candy or cake looks less appealing the longer it lasts. Yeah sure, we're 'allowed' to dress or act however we want. And everyone wants us and helps us and feels bad for us. Because it doesn't matter. We're candy.

[mandonlym]

I don't think there is anything. Mother nature and society have decided that some people will be born as depreciating eye candy. And naturally, that candy or cake looks less appealing the longer it lasts. Yeah sure, we're 'allowed' to dress or act however we want. And everyone wants us and helps us and feels bad for us. Because it doesn't matter. We're candy.

*sigh* You're really calling it like it is. Having said all this, the men I've dated have all been feminist for the most part, and are sensitive to the plight of women. Though I'm also sure physical attraction played an important role in them dating me, and the same is true the other way around. So while I agree that what you're describing is the way society is on aggregate, I think individually there are a lot of people who aren't part of this dynamic.

[alabamagirl]

Wow, this is all so depressing to read through... Especially seeing that it depressed learningtolive. I hope it's never something she has to experience.

I'll never have to experience it, anyway... I was already over 25 when I admitted to myself I am trans*. I've never once dated, and never plan to. I'm already in a relationship that I plan to be in until we're both old and grey and die of natural causes, and we met and fell in love online, neither of us caring or knowing what the other looked like until well into the romantic relationship. It's all about personality and chemistry. Don't worry about the shallow people, learningtolive. They aren't worth your time, anyway. A woman with your gorgeous personality is sure to find someone who will love and appreciate you.

[suzifrommd]

Femininity is not valued by this society.

Being tough, violent, unyielding, and self-reliant are values that are heavily promoted and admired in our society. Being sensitive, emotional, cooperative, understanding, and supportive are not.

Even movie heroines tend to be most looked up to when they take on masculine characteristics or goals.

[Nero]

I don't think there is anything. Mother nature and society have decided that some people will be born as depreciating eye candy. And naturally, that candy or cake looks less appealing the longer it lasts. Yeah sure, we're 'allowed' to dress or act however we want. And everyone wants us and helps us and feels bad for us. Because it doesn't matter. We're candy.

*sigh* You're really calling it like it is. Having said all this, the men I've dated have all been feminist for the most part, and are sensitive to the plight of women. Though I'm also sure physical attraction played an important role in them dating me, and the same is true the other way around. So while I agree that what you're describing is the way society is on aggregate, I think individually there are a lot of people who aren't part of this dynamic.

oh I agree. Most individuals are not this heartless. But being an attractive young woman, you're sort of thrust into this display case whether you want to be or not whether you're masculine or not. And everyone's a critic. Everyone comments on you. There's nothing you can do. You can never just exist. If you try to hide your body, you're 'fat' AKA the worst thing you can be as a girl. If you wear something that fits your body, you're a whore. If you eat, you're a horrible person. If you age, you're a horrible person. Because you are never allowed to forget that you are first and foremost, a body.

[Sephirah]

Being tough, violent, unyielding, and self-reliant are values that are heavily promoted and admired in our society. Being sensitive, emotional, cooperative, understanding, and supportive are not.

In that case, I'm ever so slightly screwed, lol.

[alabamagirl]

You embody all the traits I value and aspire to be, Sephirah.