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Transition before modern surgery

Started by AmandaM, February 06, 2014, 08:48:01 PM

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AmandaM

So, we all know that up to a few decades ago, no one could have sex change surgery. Yet now some "must have it" or commit suicide, etc. My question is, what about the old days? Didn't they just have to find a way to live? My meaning is that maybe some TS's see the suicide/surgery thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy whereas the old time girls just learned to live with their male bits. What do you think? And no, I'm not comtemplating anything, just wondering about this question.
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Anatta

#1
Quote from: AmandaM on February 06, 2014, 08:48:01 PM
So, we all know that up to a few decades ago, no one could have sex change surgery. Yet now some "must have it" or commit suicide, etc. My question is, what about the old days? Didn't they just have to find a way to live? My meaning is that maybe some TS's see the suicide/surgery thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy whereas the old time girls just learned to live with their male bits. What do you think? And no, I'm not comtemplating anything, just wondering about this question.

Kia Ora Amanda,

From what I gather, there have been crude forms of genital surgery performed for hundreds if not thousands of years (the Hijra of the Indian continent or the eunuchs of biblical times or ancient China )...
No doubt the level of dysphoria back then could have been greater for some gender dysphoric people who lived with no hope whatsoever...Sadly there must also have been suicides back then...

This modern day "surgery or die" phenomenon does seem to have its roots in publicity, advertising, via the internet, tv, magazines, newspapers etc which goes from  "I see(it's possible)...I want(because it's possible)...I must have or I'll die( it becomes an overwhelming obsession for some)  "

BTW I should point out that I'm post-op, but surgery for me was an unexpected bonus, not a necessity that I was obsessed with...
I was happy as a non-op and thanks to being selected for government funded surgery I'm happy as a post-op...I no longer have to take anti-testosterone and nor do I have to tuck (not that tucking was much of a problem anyway)...

Metta Zenda :)





"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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kelly_aus

I know, for me, death was the alternative to transition..

However, I do wonder how much of the 'surgery or die' attitude is caused simply be the fact that the surgery exists.
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Adam (birkin)

It's a good question, I sometimes wonder what I would have done with my life if I didn't have access to any modern transition methods.

A part of me does feel like suicide would seem to be a more attractive option. Sometimes I think about a dystopic future where I never get to live fully as a guy, and I think about "gee, it would be great to end it all, that life would be miserable." I'd entertain the thought on a more regular basis, there is no question about it. But...well...I'm kinda stubborn. I got through a lot from ages 15 to 18, and I know that if I was the suicidal type, I definitely would have killed myself between those ages. Since I didn't, I'm almost 100% convinced that I will never be a suicide statistic.

If I didn't have access to HRT, I'd never blend in as male. Period. Flat out. I tried to live as male before HRT and it was a joke. So I'd remain female. And assuming no suicide...I really just think I'd have lived my life as a recluse. My romantic entanglements definitely wouldn't involve sex. I wouldn't really want to get close to anyone. When I was still living as female, I just had no interest in getting close to other people. I seemed happy on the outside, I was superficially charming and fun, but I just never let anyone in because I wasn't happy. When they tried to get close, I distanced myself. I still do that to an extent, and it's basically at the point where I don't associate with anyone who knows I was born female, other than my family, ex girlfriends, and several professors.

. I'd probably make a superficially decent life for myself. I probably would even be happy about most things. But I'd never develop meaningful connections, and my life would be rather empty.
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LizMarie

It's complicated. We live in a western European Christianized culture that is hyper-rigid about gender. This makes things worse for TG people.

Many ancient cultures recognized TG people outright. Native Americans had "two spirit" who were highly honored precisely because they were different, and encouraged to become shaman because they could supposedly see both sides of the gender divide in the tribe. Many ancient middle eastern civilizations recognized 3, 4, 5, even 6 different genders and accepted them as part of the culture. The Code of Hammurabi has laws governing the fair treatment of "male daughters".

The problem has always been there but prior cultures made allowances for these differences, even elevating them to special status. This probably made the psychological impacts less.

But then we have our western European derived, hyper-Christianized sex-obsessed culture that insists that gender boundaries are binary, absolute, and unchangeable. And it punishes anyone who dares step out of that line. Really punishes them. This elevates the stress, hence the extraordinary suicide attempt rates among TG folks (41%).

But we also have modern medicine, which for treatment of trans folks goes back to the early 1930s - so 80 years now in which SRS style surgeries have been available. Of course they have improved since then and we've added FFS, and we're slowly getting better at FTM SRS, and now even effective voice surgery is possible.

So the question is, would you still want these medical treatments if society looked at trans people differently and much better? I honestly do not know but I do think I would still want these things. My entire life has been shaped by all these assumptions. We can do thought exercises but I'm not convinced those are very effective when we assume a cultural bias completely opposite of reality. How would each of us react? I don't think any of us can really say with any authority. We can guess, but that's about all we can do.
The meaning of life is to find your gift. The purpose of life is to give it away.



~ Cara Elizabeth
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Declan.

Quote from: AmandaM on February 06, 2014, 08:48:01 PM
Didn't they just have to find a way to live?

How do you know they did?

Don't forget that, in the old days, you could just pick up and move somewhere else to begin a new life. There were no birth certificates and medical records permanently attached to your name. Most people didn't exactly know about this kind of thing. If you saw a somewhat unusual person, you probably wouldn't think anything of it. There were so many conditions we had no explanation for that it would've been easier to fly under the radar without medical treatment. There are plenty of trans* people who managed to keep it a secret, regardless of whether or not they had any kind of medical treatments.

Then there are cultures that celebrated it, of course.

Sorry if some of this doesn't make sense. I'm typing from my phone.
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insideontheoutside

I'm no psychologist, and this is just my own opinions formulated from thinking about this a lot, and I of course am not making light of anyone who has found themselves in a "transition/surgery or die" situation. But here's how I think about it ... if you're contemplating suicide you often have a multitude of issues that you feel you have "no way out of". Just from reading other people's posts on these forums it seems like a lot have additional mental issues to deal with on top of their gender ID, so that has to come into play. The reality, for me at least, is that there are always ways out. There are always other paths and avenues open. To me, my gender issues are not equal to terminal cancer so I never gave myself a death sentence over them.

And now that there is an option for transition and surgery (even if it's cost prohibitive for some, the option is still there) I think it does lead to more "I have to have this or I'll die" thinking. It is very easy for the human brain to convince itself of a need. Try thinking about your favorite food for a minute and I bet (especially if you're currently hungry) you're going to start feeling like you need that food ... you must have it right now! You're brain knows you can probably just go out and get that food and be enjoying that and your "problem" of wanting can be solved.

I think back to when I was younger (pre-teen to teenager) if someone offered me the option, "hey you can transition to male and live the rest of your life as male" I probably would have jumped at it. But I also made other poor and questionable decisions in that era like insisting that I was going to be an NFL football star, launching my dirt bike off a 15ft cliff, and eating 8 cupcakes in one sitting. So with the wisdom of years now in my favor, I can honestly say that I would not have given 10-20 year old me the option for a drastic, life-altering decision. While the reality remains that I was no less male then than I am now, I'm glad I wasn't given the option to change my life in ways that I could never fully go back from.

I'd also like to expand on the OPs thought and include the FTM folks throughout history. The ones I've read about did live as male. Imagine how that must have been though to have to hide breasts ... come up with explanations why you have no facial hair .... or aren't having sex with women (or can't have children) ... and to deal with bleeding every month ... and yet somehow (at least the ones we know about), did it. They lived their lives in the best manner they could. And there were societies throughout history that accepted variations of gender more than the current heavily Christian-influenced society does.

So one could argue that since now a treatment exists, why the heck wouldn't trans individuals want that? From my perspective, it's become a bit flipped around. If one takes the option NOT to transition/have surgery then their gender ID is often questioned ... especially by the "medical professionals" and other trans individuals who are taking the treatment option. Oh sure, there's therapists out there who advocate for trans individuals to go with their comfort level (and that may not include treatment), but there's also ones out there who tell their clients that they aren't trans if they don't want these things. At the other end of extremes, there's therapists who warn people that if they don't get treatment they'll end up committing suicide. So that too might add to people who have gender issues generally feeling confused and scared and that transition/surgery is the only way or they're going to die. Combine that with how segments of society treats anyone who steps outside of the norm (everything from ridicule to outright violence and the threat of death) and it's like a perfect storm for some people who are already overburdened internally with how they feel about their gender.
"Let's conspire to ignite all the souls that would die just to feel alive."
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Declan.

Not looking like a "typical" male/female was pretty easy to explain away back then, though. There were enough cis people that didn't look "typical" due to hormonal imbalances and other conditions that were unexplainable back then that a trans* person could probably blend in with relative ease.  Nowadays, since people with these conditions are usually treated, trans* people stand out more without medical intervention.
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Anatta

Kia Ora,

I remember reading somewhere about the two spirit people of the Americas, who would ride naked bareback on a horse to crush their nuts  :icon_yikes: (desperate times calls for desperate measures I guess) and they (thus I had also heard), used to drink the urine of the mare which contains a form of natural estrogen...

Some might find this of interest...

http://paulmitchellrabell.blogspot.co.nz/2012/12/20-most-historically-famous.html


Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Lordes

A recent documentary about John Adams includes the fact that his daughter had breast cancer.  Being John Adams, the physician Benjamin Rush was persuaded to make a house call and cut the daughter's breast off with a farm implement.  When the cancer returned, Adams again wanted Rush in attendance but his daughter firmly, and probably wisely, declined.  People have always had miladies and conditions that were very uncomfortable, often fatal.  Progress is often defined as our ability to overcome these "disabilities."  It seems to me likely that trans people have always been around resulting in greater or lesser degrees of suffering.  The question is, "are we as a society ready to help to alleviate this suffering or do we as a society choose to compound it by ostracism and worse?"
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Missy~rmdlm

Given ever increasing life expectancy, I don't put much faith in old treatments or lack thereof. I'm confident that suicide was probably exercised at higher frequencies then, compared to now.  I'll take the surgery thanks.
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bingunginter

yes thanks to the modern tech, if it not because of the relatively easiness and the affordability, I would not even consider transitioning at all
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Cindy Stephens

I know this is late but check out Chevalier d'Eon in the Wikipedia.  Also note that one of the charges against Joan of Arc was "wearing men's clothings.  They burnt her.  Just a couple of historic examples.
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