being trans is the worst thing ever *major tw*

[sad panda]

I mean do you think you are less worthy because you are trans.
Maybe not, but they probably know a thing or two about not feeling worthy.
Thanks. I hope one day you do well too.

Oh, yeah, well I definitely feel a lot of negative things about myself i would never feel about other people. And being trans def makes that worse, like in some ways I won't be ok with myself and won't think I deserve love or approval until I stop being trans. I guess that is internalized transphobia? that's weird.

We are sort of working on feeling worthy though, like building resources, it's just really hard because I stop believing those positive things unless I am constantly reminded. But I can't wait until all that chatter is gone and i can just feel ok. I guess it feels like detransitioning is the only way i can have that to some extent but...

I am sure you understand the logical fallacy of thinking that other people can't be happy with transition because you aren't, and using confirmation bias to disregard those who claim to be happy.

I am sorry you feel this way, and I don't doubt your pain is just as real as mine is, as I try and take people at face value; but certainly you see how what you said encompassing all transpeople is just as hurtful as transpeople who would doubt the issue you have with transition. I find it frustrating when anyone makes overarching generalized statements about groups of people, as they can never be accurate by the very nature that not everyone is the same.

hmm, well, i did say everyone is different. Idk, all I can do is point out things i am noticing. If it is a logical fallacy to project that feeling then isn't it a logical fallacy to personalize a generalization? Lol I don't know if that makes sense. I just mean, it's not like I said it to any one person. And it's not all tans people either, and it doesn't really matter who it is or isn't.

[Edge]

Oh, yeah, well I definitely feel a lot of negative things about myself i would never feel about other people. And being trans def makes that worse, like in some ways I won't be ok with myself and won't think I deserve love or approval until I stop being trans. I guess that is internalized transphobia? that's weird.

Yep. That's transphobia directed at yourself. It's not something to be ashamed of, but it is something that I'd recommend addressing.

We are sort of working on feeling worthy though, like building resources, it's just really hard because I stop believing those positive things unless I am constantly reminded.

It gets easier the more you keep at it and I'd recommend exploring what works for you. For me, the generic tricks I was taught didn't do much, but I found that figuring out who I am and that I really like myself helped a lot. There was a self esteem group in my city that helped a great deal with that. I could share some of the things we did if you like.

[castle of glass]

What is so very wrong with being transgender?

[ThePhoenix]

Yeah I sort of feel like people here can be just as oppressive as the cis world in an opposite way *sometimes*. Probably just because everyone is trying so hard to validate themselves and everyone wants to have the real trans truth. Maybe it is well meaning or they just want to feel valid, but it is still oppressive. IDK. I agree trans is not bad. I don't think that at all.  I just wonder if people are as happy as they say they are. And maybe they are... I just am really biased so it's hard to believe. Well, at any rate i feel bad for trans people because I can't see the trans community becoming a normal part of the cis world. I mean to the extent that gay people have for example, because being gay is a lot more straightforward, being trans is just really anything somebody wants to be gender wise and I don't think cis people get that at all. I mean I am very used to it and supposed to be a part of it and I still don't get it. I guess it's too much/too comfusing for me. ;O;

Well, it strikes me that there is a question here that doesn't get often asked.  When a trans* person says that they are unhappy with their assigned gender at birth, what do they mean by that?  What exactly is unsatisfactory?  Is it the genitals?  The gender role?  The hair distribution?  What?  I suspect the answer to that goes a long way to explaining the differences in gender expression.  For example:

If a person is male assigned at birth, and is fine with the male social role, but has this burning feeling that they should have breasts and a vagina, then it would be entirely unsurprising to see that person transition into a woman who comes across very strongly male.  Not butch, but male.  There's a difference.  And this could be the person who flips the gender norms and stereotypes around as described in the original post.  And because of those social norms, this person could indeed have a very hard time fitting into the mostlycisgender world.

Or, if a person is female assigned at birth, and is fine with the genitals, but can't make the social role fit because they are, by instinct too masculine, then you might get someone who has little interest in phaloplasty, but a strong, burning desire to fit in socially and the ability to do it.  This might be the highly conforming (with reassigned gender) person who you don't see because they are invisible and just blending in. 

And there are a zillion variations on these themes and other themes as well.  The point being that not everyone goes into transition with the same beginning tools or the same goals, so not everyone comes out with the same outcomes.  And of course the ways that people's lives are affected can also be quite different.

The trans* community seems very much dominated by people who are closer to my first example.  But I wonder if that's because people who fit my second example are just out there being unnoticed.  I don't think they are non-existent.

[Calder Smith]

Good rant. You bring up some good points and share some of my frustrations with the community.

I don't understand either why many say they hate gender roles but they confine to a role themselves.

[Edge]

I don't understand either why many say they hate gender roles but they confine to a role themselves.

Can't speak for anyone, but sometimes I feel this way due to fear and an obsession with being seen as who I am. I hope it lessens. It's difficult to deal with.

[sad panda]

Yep. That's transphobia directed at yourself. It's not something to be ashamed of, but it is something that I'd recommend addressing.
It gets easier the more you keep at it and I'd recommend exploring what works for you. For me, the generic tricks I was taught didn't do much, but I found that figuring out who I am and that I really like myself helped a lot. There was a self esteem group in my city that helped a great deal with that. I could share some of the things we did if you like.

Yeah, if you would be willing to share that would be great. (: I find it really hard to know who I am and what I really like too. Well, I'll think I did but it changes so much. Sadly there is no skills group in my area.

Well, it strikes me that there is a question here that doesn't get often asked.  When a trans* person says that they are unhappy with their assigned gender at birth, what do they mean by that?  What exactly is unsatisfactory?  Is it the genitals?  The gender role?  The hair distribution?  What?  I suspect the answer to that goes a long way to explaining the differences in gender expression.  For example:

If a person is male assigned at birth, and is fine with the male social role, but has this burning feeling that they should have breasts and a vagina, then it would be entirely unsurprising to see that person transition into a woman who comes across very strongly male.  Not butch, but male.  There's a difference.  And this could be the person who flips the gender norms and stereotypes around as described in the original post.  And because of those social norms, this person could indeed have a very hard time fitting into the mostlycisgender world.

Or, if a person is female assigned at birth, and is fine with the genitals, but can't make the social role fit because they are, by instinct too masculine, then you might get someone who has little interest in phaloplasty, but a strong, burning desire to fit in socially and the ability to do it.  This might be the highly conforming (with reassigned gender) person who you don't see because they are invisible and just blending in. 

And there are a zillion variations on these themes and other themes as well.  The point being that not everyone goes into transition with the same beginning tools or the same goals, so not everyone comes out with the same outcomes.  And of course the ways that people's lives are affected can also be quite different.

The trans* community seems very much dominated by people who are closer to my first example.  But I wonder if that's because people who fit my second example are just out there being unnoticed.  I don't think they are non-existent.

Yeah, that is true. I was thinking about that the other day when I told my therapist I didn't want people to know about me being trans and she said, well, I don't know what's normal but I really can't imagine anyone would be able to tell. I realized once again that everyone else just sees this girl and none of what I'm feeling inside. I mean just last week they even looked at all my abdominal organs with ultrasound and still never knew I am not a girl. They didn't think about it at all. You never know for sure who that person could be and how much they are suffering with it (or not), and they are certainly probably a lot less likely to out themselves over politics or whatever. I want to believe that is pretty normal but all I see is the community who actively seeks support and acceptance as openly trans. So, who knows...

I think it's hard though, well again I am projecting but no matter how much I fit in, the internal narrative is so hard to cope with, that's why i think people would seek support anyway. It's hard to manage being stealth and sane. You just have to be so unaffected by it all. It's like having chronic pain and never telling anyone. Always keeping your posture good and your energy up. People just don't normally have an experience like this and it is scary and hard no matter what. But, you're right. In the end it varies a lot. So I shouldn't say too much about everyone else, that's just how it feels to me.

[Carrie Liz]

I blame our overly-gendered society, personally.

It's always trying to box us in to boxes of "male" and "female" based on gender expression... trying to say that boys have to like masculine things and girls have to like feminine things, along with all of the connotations that come with it. We've internalized these expectations after a lifetime of being pressured into them, and thus can fall into the same trap, just in reverse. Once we stop pretending to be stereotypical men, we rush into the box of trying to be a stereotypical woman, or vice versa, trying to fit in.

Where really, gender identity has nothing to do with gender expression. Gender identity is a medical phenomenon, and it's about which body your mind is programmed to feel 'right' in.

But again, our society's understanding of gender is still severely restricted. It views physical sex, gender identity, gender expression, and sexual orientation as all being a continuum, where one being different automatically brings the others into question. Which is why feminine-expressing men are often teased for supposedly being gay, masculine women are teased for supposedly being lesbians, trans women have their gender identity belittled if they dare mention that they're still into stereotypically-male things, and why when we say that our gender identity is different from our birth sex, people just automatically assume that now we'll magically start liking the opposite sex, and expressing ourselves in the stereotypical manner of that new sex, which puts a tremendous amount of pressure on us to fit in.

That's the problem here. It's that societal misunderstanding about what gender identity entails. The rest is just us trying to scramble to fit into this very wrong societal mindset.

[sad panda]

I blame our overly-gendered society, personally.

It's always trying to box us in to boxes of "male" and "female" based on gender expression... trying to say that boys have to like masculine things and girls have to like feminine things, along with all of the connotations that come with it. We've internalized these expectations after a lifetime of being pressured into them, and thus can fall into the same trap, just in reverse. Once we stop pretending to be stereotypical men, we rush into the box of trying to be a stereotypical woman, or vice versa, trying to fit in.

Where really, gender identity has nothing to do with gender expression. Gender identity is a medical phenomenon, and it's about which body your mind is programmed to feel 'right' in.

But again, our society's understanding of gender is still severely restricted. It views physical sex, gender identity, gender expression, and sexual orientation as all being a continuum, where one being different automatically brings the others into question. Which is why feminine-expressing men are often teased for supposedly being gay, masculine women are teased for supposedly being lesbians, trans women have their gender identity belittled if they dare mention that they're still into stereotypically-male things, and why when we say that our gender identity is different from our birth sex, people just automatically assume that now we'll magically start liking the opposite sex, and expressing ourselves in the stereotypical manner of that new sex, which puts a tremendous amount of pressure on us to fit in.

That's the problem here. It's that societal misunderstanding about what gender identity entails. The rest is just us trying to scramble to fit into this very wrong societal mindset.

Thank you for sharing. Actually I agree with you that the stereotypes are too much.

But what I am still personally trying to understand is the gender identity thing, I don't exactly get what you mean by it. Is it just about the words man and woman, he and she, him and her?? Is it about being treated like one sex or the other? But again, what does that mean if it has nothing to do with stereotypes?

I guess I feel like "gender identity" is being used as a magical word by the trans community and i don't understand it. It feels like trans people don't actually want to get rid of gender stereotypes, they just want to be immune from them whenever they feel like it. Why should having a female gender identity mean that you want to be called ma'am and a girly name and have breasts, but not that you want to behave like most females do? I mean not all women have breasts and not all of them like being called ma'am just like not all behave femininely. So, I don't know what gender identity actually means. :s

Does that make sense? If gender identity really just means "however i prefer to present and be treated" then isn't the real problem the fact that there are restrictions on male and female behavior and appearance? i don't think you should have to transition to be 100% yourself, however you want to look or act or whatever. But that's not what trans people are fighting for. Maybe To an extent they like this oppressive binary system full of stereotypes because they wouldn't feel like who they want to be is special otherwise.. Honestly I think gender identity might really be an attachment to some kind of stereotype about men or women more than it is an expression of who you are. Sorry if that's kinda crappy of me to say. :/

[Nero]

I guess I feel like "gender identity" is being used as a magical word by the trans community and i don't understand it. It feels like trans people don't actually want to get rid of gender stereotypes, they just want to be immune from them whenever they feel like it. Why should having a female gender identity mean that you want to be called ma'am and a girly name and have breasts, but not that you want to behave like most females do? I mean not all women have breasts and not all of them like being called ma'am just like not all behave femininely. So, I don't know what gender identity actually means. :s

Does that make sense? If gender identity really just means "however i prefer to present and be treated" then isn't the real problem the fact that there are restrictions on male and female behavior and appearance? i don't think you should have to transition to be 100% yourself, however you want to look or act or whatever. But that's not what trans people are fighting for. Maybe To an extent they like this oppressive binary system full of stereotypes because they wouldn't feel like who they want to be is special otherwise.. Honestly I think gender identity might really be an attachment to some kind of stereotype about men or women more than it is an expression of who you are. Sorry if that's kinda crappy of me to say. :/

Well, I think for a lot of people, it's a physical thing. Yes, I really hated hearing 'miss' or 'ma'am'. But that was nothing to being comfortable in my body. That was the main thing for me. I don't have a lot of attachment to 'being a man'. I just feel a lot more like myself with a flat chest and a beard. I don't know how to explain it. Even if people still saw me as female and still 'ma'amed' me, I'd have to have made the physical changes I made. I have no idea why that is. I just know that changing and showering have become less a chore. Before, showering to me was like climbing Mt. Everest. Changing clothes was hell. Now, it's nothing. That, at least, isn't a vanity thing. I'm a lot fatter than I was when I lived as female. I had a lot 'better body' as female. But I am worlds more comfortable with my body. With moving, sitting, walking, running, showering...
I could be on a desert island and never see another human being and still be a lot more physically and emotionally comfortable. It's really not about other people.

[Miss_Bungle1991]

I could think of worse things than being trans, but I'm not going to bother with listing them.

I honestly, don't give a damn about what most of the world thinks about me. (Yeah, I know what you said about being an introvert and all that) but the truth of the matter is that if you don't develop thicker skin and a bit of a "screw you" attitude, you will be eaten alive. You don't even have to be trans to be in a situation like that. I have one family member that is handicapped and she has to put up with losers, schmucks and general wastes of life that screw with her. She just keeps going because that's all anyone can do.

I certainly don't consider myself to be a fake. Hell, that stupid facade that I put up years ago, THAT was fake. Aside from medical professionals, no one needs to know what the hell is going on in my pants anyway. Not to mention the fact that I have no desire to be with men because they make me want to vomit. (Only in the sense of being in a romantic relationship. I'm not the militant "anti-men" type.) I don't care about being with a woman because I simply don't care about sex and there would obviously be a roadblock here since most women would more than likely desire some sexual component to the relationship. Sure, there may be some exceptions out there, but I can't be bothered to look for them. I will have no problem living out the rest of my life alone. I enjoy my solitude and not having to deal with someone bugging me all of the time.

I don't see transitioning as being so horrible. Have there been some bumpy roads along this journey? You bet there has. Are there some things that I regret not doing? Sure. But you can be cisgender and have those same issues. Even with the problems that came along with this, I don't regret doing it. I would be a rotten corpse at this point if I didn't go ahead with transition a few years back and that is the reality of the situation.

As far as the trans community goes, Hell, I AM the trans community around here. The only time I get screwed with is if by some weird stroke of luck, I run into one of the three idiots that I used to hang with before they ditched me once I came out. Good riddance to 'em, I say. Every once in awhile I might have some stupid teenage skank that makes a snarky remark but, so what? Girls like that are usually pathetic losers anyway, therefore, their opinions mean nothing, zip, zilch, zero.

As far as "fitting in" is concerned: Even if I were cis, I still would never fit anywhere. Believe me, I've been around enough groups centered around many things and I discovered that I am always going to be that square peg in a world full of round holes.

I am who I am and that's all there is to it.

I don't give a damn about upholding stereotypes of any kind. I don't even pay attention to that crap to even know what to conform to in the first place. I do what I do, I live my life. That's it.

End of story.

[Carrie Liz]

Thank you for sharing. Actually I agree with you that the stereotypes are too much.

But what I am still personally trying to understand is the gender identity thing, I don't exactly get what you mean by it. Is it just about the words man and woman, he and she, him and her?? Is it about being treated like one sex or the other? But again, what does that mean if it has nothing to do with stereotypes?

I guess I feel like "gender identity" is being used as a magical word by the trans community and i don't understand it. It feels like trans people don't actually want to get rid of gender stereotypes, they just want to be immune from them whenever they feel like it. Why should having a female gender identity mean that you want to be called ma'am and a girly name and have breasts, but not that you want to behave like most females do? I mean not all women have breasts and not all of them like being called ma'am just like not all behave femininely. So, I don't know what gender identity actually means. :s

Does that make sense? If gender identity really just means "however i prefer to present and be treated" then isn't the real problem the fact that there are restrictions on male and female behavior and appearance? i don't think you should have to transition to be 100% yourself, however you want to look or act or whatever. But that's not what trans people are fighting for. Maybe To an extent they like this oppressive binary system full of stereotypes because they wouldn't feel like who they want to be is special otherwise.. Honestly I think gender identity might really be an attachment to some kind of stereotype about men or women more than it is an expression of who you are. Sorry if that's kinda crappy of me to say. :/

I don't pretend to speak for everyone here, because this is just my own experience with it...

To me, there were two parts to it... it was both a physical thing as well as a societal thing.

Physical:
My male body felt uncomfortable and "wrong" to me, and I found myself being jealous of the female body. Having body hair felt wrong. My voice changing felt wrong. Having male muscles felt wrong. I felt like my emotions were blunted, and like I should be having the emotional reactions to things that girls were having, and yet somehow they felt muted, foggy. Having male genitals felt wrong. Having a blocky male shape instead of a curvy female shape felt wrong. I wanted smooth legs, and female fat deposits, and I wanted a feminine face and a female body. And seeing a guy in the mirror felt wrong, and always made me feel depressed. These were all purely physical desires.

Societal:
I felt boxed in by the male social role. Because although I did have many stereotypically-masculine interests, I wanted to be able to wear more feminine clothing like short shorts, dresses, etc. I hated that as a male I was limited to only masculine activities and behaviors and interests. (less often than the physical desires, but they were there still.)

So for me, the main part of what I am calling "gender dysphoria" was the physical wrongness. I could not function normally because my body was incorrect on a medical level. My body felt like it was 'designed' to run on the hormones of the opposite sex, and to physically be the opposite sex. Were it not for this desire, then you're 100% right, I could have stayed male just fine, because my problem would have been solely based on societal standards of what men could do and what women could do. This is why cross-dressers exist. Because they enjoy expressing their femininity, but they don't have that innate "wrongness" physically, which would make them desire to actually have a completely-female body. In my case, though, it wasn't about that social part of it. It was rooted in a physical "wrongness" that told me that my body and mind were existing in a manner that was fundamentally wrong. And that is why I had to transition. There was no way that I could be physically male and be happy with my body or feel like I was "functioning" correctly, regardless of what my social gender presentation was.

To put it another way... here's a true story. I had a friend as a kid who eventually came out as gay. Watching my old birthday party videos, he was WAY more effeminate than I was. He bowled like a girl, talked like a girl, smiled like a girl, and was into way more feminine things than I was. My behavior was male-leaning androgynous, while his was definitively feminine. But again, masculinity/femininity and gender identity are independent variables. Despite his very female social tendencies, he identified as male. And although I was more androgynous than anything, I do identify as female. Which means that in an ideal world where there were no gender differences socially, I'd still identify as female, because my transness has nothing to do with whether I'm feminine or not. It's the same reason why there's many butch lesbians who are way more masculine than I am, and yet they still identify as female.

Again, that's my experience with it. Maybe for other people it is more about the social role. I don't know. I'm just going on my own experience.

[LeosGirl]

Okay, so I understand you're unhappy and that totally gives you a right to vent, but speaking for everyone is kind of unfair, don't you think? Even WITH the trigger warning. You're invalidating the experiences of trans people that ARE happy and go on to live normal lives. Honestly you're invalidating everyone in every possible way. I'm a cis woman with a trans boyfriend, do your experiences give you the right to say he won't like me because I'm not a guy, I won't accept him ever, and we can't live a normal life together? I'm not trying to attack you at all, I just think you should consider how what you say can affect others sometimes. Speaking for yourself is fine, but saying EVERYONE is going to have the same results as you is a bit condescending and you don't have any idea how many people you could be offending and hurting by this. Someone could seriously be just at the beginning of their transition and hurting so badly because they don't think they could go on to have the life they want and you saying that they WON'T, end of, that very well could push them over the edge into doing something to themselves. Your experiences do not speak for everyone, and maybe you should be a little more careful, even if you are just venting. Just some food for thought. I'm done now.

[sad panda]

@fa and carrie liz thanks for sharing. I get where you are coming from. It's not a body thing for me but I definitely have other body image issues and I know how painful that can be.

So I guess my only other question is, where do you think is the line between body dysphoria and gender? Are they very linked to each other for you guys or does the gender/social dysphoria happen mostly as an extension of your body image and how it relates to what you see in other people?

I guess what I'm getting at is, wouldn't it be better if people could change any aspect of themselves, body or whatever, freely? Without everything always being a package deal. Withiut people feeling pressured to change body, behavior, identity, presentation, records, things like that if it's only about one thing or another. Like, I ended up changing my body to fix almost purely social dysphoria. I think that was a mistake for me, I regret having grown breasts and stuff. But it's like, if you wrap up everything in "gender identity" I think it just reinforces stereotypes and makes people feel pressured to be a stereotype. That's just my opinion though.

I could think of worse things than being trans, but I'm not going to bother with listing them.

I honestly, don't give a damn about what most of the world thinks about me. (Yeah, I know what you said about being an introvert and all that) but the truth of the matter is that if you don't develop thicker skin and a bit of a "screw you" attitude, you will be eaten alive. You don't even have to be trans to be in a situation like that. I have one family member that is handicapped and she has to put up with losers, schmucks and general wastes of life that screw with her. She just keeps going because that's all anyone can do.

I certainly don't consider myself to be a fake. Hell, that stupid facade that I put up years ago, THAT was fake. Aside from medical professionals, no one needs to know what the hell is going on in my pants anyway. Not to mention the fact that I have no desire to be with men because they make me want to vomit. (Only in the sense of being in a romantic relationship. I'm not the militant "anti-men" type.) I don't care about being with a woman because I simply don't care about sex and there would obviously be a roadblock here since most women would more than likely desire some sexual component to the relationship. Sure, there may be some exceptions out there, but I can't be bothered to look for them. I will have no problem living out the rest of my life alone. I enjoy my solitude and not having to deal with someone bugging me all of the time.

I don't see transitioning as being so horrible. Have there been some bumpy roads along this journey? You bet there has. Are there some things that I regret not doing? Sure. But you can be cisgender and have those same issues. Even with the problems that came along with this, I don't regret doing it. I would be a rotten corpse at this point if I didn't go ahead with transition a few years back and that is the reality of the situation.

As far as the trans community goes, Hell, I AM the trans community around here. The only time I get screwed with is if by some weird stroke of luck, I run into one of the three idiots that I used to hang with before they ditched me once I came out. Good riddance to 'em, I say. Every once in awhile I might have some stupid teenage skank that makes a snarky remark but, so what? Girls like that are usually pathetic losers anyway, therefore, their opinions mean nothing, zip, zilch, zero.

As far as "fitting in" is concerned: Even if I were cis, I still would never fit anywhere. Believe me, I've been around enough groups centered around many things and I discovered that I am always going to be that square peg in a world full of round holes.

I am who I am and that's all there is to it.

I don't give a damn about upholding stereotypes of any kind. I don't even pay attention to that crap to even know what to conform to in the first place. I do what I do, I live my life. That's it.

End of story.

Well I am really glad you found what works for you. I can definitely see how if you were less concerned with what people think then you would be fine being exactly who you are and not feel these pressures as much. I think that is awesome.

Okay, so I understand you're unhappy and that totally gives you a right to vent, but speaking for everyone is kind of unfair, don't you think? Even WITH the trigger warning. You're invalidating the experiences of trans people that ARE happy and go on to live normal lives. Honestly you're invalidating everyone in every possible way. I'm a cis woman with a trans boyfriend, do your experiences give you the right to say he won't like me because I'm not a guy, I won't accept him ever, and we can't live a normal life together? I'm not trying to attack you at all, I just think you should consider how what you say can affect others sometimes. Speaking for yourself is fine, but saying EVERYONE is going to have the same results as you is a bit condescending and you don't have any idea how many people you could be offending and hurting by this. Someone could seriously be just at the beginning of their transition and hurting so badly because they don't think they could go on to have the life they want and you saying that they WON'T, end of, that very well could push them over the edge into doing something to themselves. Your experiences do not speak for everyone, and maybe you should be a little more careful, even if you are just venting. Just some food for thought. I'm done now.

Well, I don't know if you read my other posts in the thread but I keep saying exactly that. I'm not speaking for everyone at all or anyone specific, just about things that I notice that happen sometimes or often. But not for everybody ofc. And also my own perspective which is definitely NOT the norm but I also wonder how many people feel like me at times and don't say it.

I'm sorry though, I was feeling reallyyyyy emotional when I wrote the first post so I do get why it seemed like too much. :/ Honestly I am really surprised people weren't more mad at me for it b/c I deserve it probably. But I am thinking clearer now. Though I do wanna say... IDK if you have been around here long but I wouldn't worry too much about some negativity giving people the wrong idea, it is usually overwhelmingly positive around here, tho then again this is the ARGH board lol. I think it is at least good for people to be able to read that it's not rainbows and butterflies for all of us... y'know? Being trans is absolutely not a walk in the park, trans people are very bad off statistically on like all counts and that is reality. But if they want encouragement again they will find lots of it here.

FWIW I used to be that person... really unsure about making the plunge to transition and just personally, I wish I had read more varying perspectives of transitions, because everyone seemed so amazingly positive. It felt like people were so encouraging and like, glorifying? Of transition that it gave me an unrealistic view of how i would feel. And a lot of people will act like there's no problems when they haven't even taken any steps to transition yet and may not have those experiences. But it's probably my fault for not being able to realize how I would end up feeling. :c

[Nero]

@fa and carrie liz thanks for sharing. I get where you are coming from. It's not a body thing for me but I definitely have other body image issues and I know how painful that can be.

So I guess my only other question is, where do you think is the line between body dysphoria and gender? Are they very linked to each other for you guys or does the gender/social dysphoria happen mostly as an extension of your body image and how it relates to what you see in other people?

Well, just from my observations, there do seem to be those with more body dysphoria and those with more social dysphoria. And it seems like a lot of times when a trans person's extremely desperate and near suicidal over waiting to transition, it's a body thing. I could be wrong. But I think the decision to transition is sometimes clearer for people with a lot of body dysphoria. And body dysphoria can be independent of the social thing. Like the person just can hardly stand to undress or shower because they see parts that just feel wrong. And nobody else is around. It's an internal thing.


About body dysphoria and gender - well, I'm not sure if there's a line between it. How I experienced body dysphoria was more like 'This feels really wrong' and not like 'I should be a guy and guys don't have tits, smooth faces, high voices, etc'. It was something a lot more primal? than that.

I guess I could describe both the body dysphoria and social dysphoria for me as an identity thing. How my body looked and how people saw me didn't feel like me. It was at odds with my mental image and personality. It didn't fit. Who I am is just better represented as a guy. Not because of social roles or masculinity/femininity. How I look now is just a lot closer to how I've always looked inside and I don't feel that disconnect anymore.

It's really hard to describe.

[Miss_Bungle1991]

Well I am really glad you found what works for you. I can definitely see how if you were less concerned with what people think then you would be fine being exactly who you are and not feel these pressures as much. I think that is awesome.

Well, I was always that way. But once I came out several years ago, that all changed and I was extremely self conscious about everything. It took me quite awhile to get back to not caring about what others thought. That period in between was really rough, though. It's kind of weird, though, because now my parents tell me that I should care about what other people think. But they are weird like that. My family loves to give off mixed messages. I've never understood that but, whatever. They are going to do what they want. I tend to disregard them when they do that. Otherwise, it's just a friggin headache.

[valsharae]

You bought up great points sad panda (I don't want to call you sad but it's your name... :/ ). It's stuff that I'm starting to see and have been thinking. You've written it quite nicely! Even though the odds may be against us, I keep on goin' cause it's my passion.

*hugs panda*

[Edge]

Yeah, if you would be willing to share that would be great. (: I find it really hard to know who I am and what I really like too. Well, I'll think I did but it changes so much. Sadly there is no skills group in my area.

I've currently got my head full of statistics and chemistry (midterms coming up), but I shall share them once I can focus.

[Katelyn]

Well, it strikes me that there is a question here that doesn't get often asked.  When a trans* person says that they are unhappy with their assigned gender at birth, what do they mean by that?  What exactly is unsatisfactory?  Is it the genitals?  The gender role?  The hair distribution?  What?  I suspect the answer to that goes a long way to explaining the differences in gender expression.  For example:

If a person is male assigned at birth, and is fine with the male social role, but has this burning feeling that they should have breasts and a vagina, then it would be entirely unsurprising to see that person transition into a woman who comes across very strongly male.  Not butch, but male.  There's a difference.  And this could be the person who flips the gender norms and stereotypes around as described in the original post.  And because of those social norms, this person could indeed have a very hard time fitting into the mostlycisgender world.

Or, if a person is female assigned at birth, and is fine with the genitals, but can't make the social role fit because they are, by instinct too masculine, then you might get someone who has little interest in phaloplasty, but a strong, burning desire to fit in socially and the ability to do it.  This might be the highly conforming (with reassigned gender) person who you don't see because they are invisible and just blending in. 

And there are a zillion variations on these themes and other themes as well.  The point being that not everyone goes into transition with the same beginning tools or the same goals, so not everyone comes out with the same outcomes.  And of course the ways that people's lives are affected can also be quite different.

The trans* community seems very much dominated by people who are closer to my first example.  But I wonder if that's because people who fit my second example are just out there being unnoticed.  I don't think they are non-existent.

If what you are saying is true, then I've been conned by the TG community, especially MTF's.  I've actually admired FTM's in their honesty, the genetic female trans people (including bigender / genderqueer) have more striked me as representing the transgender spectrum than the genetic male side.  I think a lot of genetic male TS's are just more worried about not being accepted and thus not represent things accurately, at the expense of people like me, who are significantly more honest than average.  And I know that among people raised as female, there is just more honesty in general when it comes to intimate issues.

So here I am for more than 6 years questioning my own gender despite wanting to have breasts, a vagina, desiring to have sex only as a woman, and desiring to have a female looking body and that i happen to have a natural feminine personality (including feminine mannerisms), and being stuck in the mud due to the lack of honesty among MTF's.

[Carrie Liz]

^To be fair, those who are born female generally don't face as much pressure from birth to fit into feminine stereotypes as males do to fit into masculine stereotypes, because our culture as a whole values masculinity more than femininity. Being a tomboy is a generally well-accepted cultural label to be. Where there really isn't a male equivalent. Society can understand why girls would like sports, strength, toughness, and other "masculine" things, because it views them as the "default." Where it can't understand why boys would like makeup, dresses, emotions, and other such "feminine" things, because it views them as lesser. It's very telling that when a woman wears male clothes, nobody really thinks much of it, maybe just assuming that she's a tomboy or a butch lesbian or something. But if a man wears women's clothes he can be diagnosed with transvestic fetishism, and is called a freak.

So basically, I feel like us MtFs are under a bit more cultural pressure to fit in, and therefore are a bit more scared to be our authentic selves because we're so used to having our authentic femininity belittled, teased, laughed at, and beaten out of us by a society that's constantly telling us to "man up." And I will admit that I admire this about FtMs too. They seem to be much more aware that the clothes they wear and the way they act don't define their gender identity, where so many of my MtF trans friends are constantly bothering me about needing to wear makeup, needing to wear a skirt, needing to do this and that "because I'm a woman."