The Power Of Prayer...Does It Work ?

[SilverGirl]

Finally! Some one who can explain cellular mitosis to me!

of course jessica! you've come to the right person , cellular mitosis is:

Я думаю, вы собираетесь попробовать перевести это, кто знает? я даже не знаю, если это переводчик штуковина является достаточно точным, чтобы никакого смысла об этом после копирования паста это в гугле, так что давайте петь что-то поднять настроение не так ли?

я ехал мой автомобиль, я нуждался в бензин, положить пироги в баре я полон адреналина угу угу, да, да ...

хорошо все, что, я не могу петь в России :3

[Vicky]

I was going to give a smarty answer and say its ALL Greek to me, but I do recognize Russian script after looking at it for a minute!!  TSK, Tsk!

Yeah the translator here does work.     LOL

[SilverGirl]

I was going to give a smarty answer and say its ALL Greek to me, but I do recognize Russian script after looking at it for a minute!!  TSK, Tsk!

Yeah the translator here does work.     LOL

lol! when i translate back what i wrote, i ended up with "petrol" instead of "gasoline" which was what i wrote before so it rhymed

[Jessica Merriman]

Uh look at my signature I do know Russian dear. You said you became a microbiologist and I believed you. So, why cant you believe G-D can answer prayer?

[MadelineB]

Kia Ora M,

It's interesting you should mention this...The Dalai Lama quite often when giving a talk to Westerners will say "stay with the belief system you were born into" that is 'if it an't broke don't fix it'...But part of his push to stop conversion is  due the Christian missionaries trying to convert poor Buddhists, especially in Mongolia...

The mind (in the right hands) is such a powerful tool and judging by past posts by you (on other threads) it would seem you are well on the way to mastering it....

BTW It's good that prayer worked out for you...But do you really think help came from beyond ie, a god of some sort ? Or could it be, you just changed the way you looked at things and the things you looked at changed ?

Metta Anatta

Hi A,
I would say that at the time that I was surviving, my belief in a merciful supreme divine being, when I was in no way prepared to believe in myself, enabled me to do things for myself and others that I otherwise was too broken to attempt. Was it actually God performing the miracles? Well, I don't want to knock anyone's faith or symbols. I just know that I am now involved in the same or greater miracles without calling on a god to do them. At the same time I acknowledge that it was a very painful journey for me to go from believing completely to where I am today, so I wouldn't recommend it to others unless their heart of hearts leads them to it. For me, it felt like growing up, but for many people, it would feel like a form of dying.

[SilverGirl]

Uh look at my signature I do know Russian dear.

oops! i failed hard lol  , i hadn't seen your sig, so i just thought of a language i have no idea how to read, like russian, and used it :x 

You said you became a microbiologist and I believed you. So, why cant you believe G-D can answer prayer?

you shouldn't have believed what i said, because i provided no evidence, for trivial claims such as i went to a restaurant yesterday, it's more understandable to trust the claimer and accept this claim on the fact that it's likely and trivial

but now if i said something very extraordinary like the example i gave and the alien in saturn or that i saw a ghost in my bathroom yesterday, that is something extraordinary which is not very likely to happen according to what we know of reality, therefore for such a extraordinary claim, the burden of proof is on the claimer to provide some evidence that it really happened, and i didn't

when someone makes a claim to you, would you not believe until it is proven or would you believe until it's disproven?

it's the same thing as prayer, that is something very extraordinary which would require a lot of evidence, i won't take things on trust or word on this matter, extraordinary evidence is required

for healing claims such as those made by Brandon, sometimes the body can heal injuries and diseases, he says that the prayer caused the healing, but provides no proof of this link or record of the prayers, so that is hard for me to accept it, maybe if there was a healing that the body can't provide, like an amputee, that would be a great start, but i have never seen praying heal amputees

also the confirmation bias is a problem, a lot of prayers that are not answered are ignored, and those that are supposedly answered are the ones that the prayer has memory of, and a lot of these prayers are trivial things that could happen anyway, especially since the prayer is also working to achieve the same goal as those requested in his prayer

[DriftingCrow]

Sat nam SilverGirl:

Your arguments kind of remind me of arguments people give claiming trans people are just confused. Much of the "proof" people give of "being born in the wrong body" cannot be medically or scientifically proven in their case.

For some people, there's things you just feel , believe, know.

If you're living your own life, not forcing your views on others, and feel good, I see no harm in living on a gut feeling that cannot be scientifically proven.

~H

[Anatta]

Hi A,
I would say that at the time that I was surviving, my belief in a merciful supreme divine being, when I was in no way prepared to believe in myself, enabled me to do things for myself and others that I otherwise was too broken to attempt. Was it actually God performing the miracles? Well, I don't want to knock anyone's faith or symbols. I just know that I am now involved in the same or greater miracles without calling on a god to do them. At the same time I acknowledge that it was a very painful journey for me to go from believing completely to where I am today, so I wouldn't recommend it to others unless their heart of hearts leads them to it. For me, it felt like growing up, but for many people, it would feel like a form of dying.

Kia Ora M,

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Metta Anatta

[SilverGirl]

Sat nam SilverGirl:

Your arguments kind of remind me of arguments people give claiming trans people are just confused. Much of the "proof" people give of "being born in the wrong body" cannot be medically or scientifically proven in their case.

For some people, there's things you just feel , believe, know.

well, the thing is that i view being trans differently, not that its a disorder, dysphoria or whatever, but it's what the person prefers so there shouldn't be anything to prove and we should be able to just choose what we prefer, the problem really is that people think that when someone is born they need to follow the gender and gender roles that society designates for those being born with a penis or vagina, and anyone who deviates from that norm and prefers the gender role that doesn't match the genital, they are classified as having a disorder or whatever it's called, which makes no sense because the only "disorder", is being different, this is one of the reasons i'm totally against transsexuality or non-binary people being pathologized and of required therapy before we do what we want with our bodies, but this is another subject and i don't want to deviate from the thread subject

i understand what you mean though, but i disagree, we have insane asylums for people that "feel, believe, know." that they are napoleon or have been abducted by aliens, etc, believing in something, no matter how strongly, does not make it real

another problem is that according to what you said, it creates a problem that everyone that "feels, believes, knows." prays to different gods, then it would mean that there were different gods to answer these prayers, and as far as i know most of these beliefs are monotheistic and mutually exclusive

If you're living your own life, not forcing your views on others, and feel good, I see no harm in living on a gut feeling that cannot be scientifically proven.

~H

i agree completely, though there is nothing wrong with talking about it, after all this thread is a question of whether or not prayer works, so i view it as a discussion for those that think that it does and those that think that it doesn't

[DriftingCrow]

Sat nam Silvergirl:

Yes I do agree that just feeling, believing, and knowing doesn't always equate truth, but not having scientific proof doesn't always mean that it isn't true.

another problem is that according to what you said, it creates a problem that everyone that "feels, believes, knows." prays to different gods, then it would mean that there were different gods to answer these prayers, and as far as i know most of these beliefs are monotheistic and mutually exclusive.

I find that it's a common misconception among western Atheists (and even some religious/spiritual folks) that many religions view themselves as mutually exclusive. While it is true that there are some that see themselves as the only way and everyone else is going to hell, I find more and more religious scholars are more open, view differences of religion as being God's way of revealing Zirself to different peoples and cultures. I'll just use Sikhi as an example (because that's what I try my best to follow): we believe in one genderless God, but that all peoples and religions are equal. A LaVeyan Satanist, a Jew, Atheist, or polytheistic faith follower can achieve union with God just as much as a Sikh could.

Another thing that can make these discussions hard is that even though most religious/spiritual folks recite over and over again that they lack scientific proof, hence why it's called "faith" and not "fact", that any sort of "proof" they have is only proof to them or a few others who choose to believe them, we're still constantly hammered to almost magically come up with some sort of scientific data. I think it's a difference of mind-set sometimes. I am fine not having scientific proof, because I know that the mysteries of God/Universe are more complex than my limited human mind can comprehend, so if I cannot comprehend it, I am unlikely to be able to find a way to quantify and measure it. I don't think the human brain is quite capable of being able to understand the universe enough to scientifically find proof for everything.

Back to another part of the thread:

I was thinking, that if I do pray it's kind of different requests than is stereotypically portrayed as being prayed for. I don't ask for things like "please help me get X," or "heal this person" or "let me travel safely". I tend to more say something like "help me discover what direction is right for me" or "help me learn to be less judgmental and be more accepting of others".

The things I tend to pray for would likely be completely impossible to prove.

Jap prem,
H

[SilverGirl]

Sat nam Silvergirl:

Yes I do agree that just feeling, believing, and knowing doesn't always equate truth, but not having scientific proof doesn't always mean that it isn't true.

yes, but the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, not on others to prove it's not true, otherwise i could say that there is a magical pink six headed dragon with a scorpion tail that likes purple M&Ms called Didi that created all the universe, following the same line you said, i could say that even though i don't have scientific proof, doesn't mean that Didi doesn't exist, but why should i say such a thing? like i said before, should i not believe in something until it's proven or should i believe in something until it's disproven? should you not believe in Didi until i prove her exists? or should you believe until someone proves Didi doesn't exist?

I find that it's a common misconception among western Atheists (and even some religious/spiritual folks) that many religions view themselves as mutually exclusive. While it is true that there are some that see themselves as the only way and everyone else is going to hell, I find more and more religious scholars are more open, view differences of religion as being God's way of revealing Zirself to different peoples and cultures. I'll just use Sikhi as an example (because that's what I try my best to follow): we believe in one genderless God, but that all peoples and religions are equal. A LaVeyan Satanist, a Jew, Atheist, or polytheistic faith follower can achieve union with God just as much as a Sikh could.

what i meant in the previous post is that anyone could have a different view, and some would have beliefs that their god is the only one, and that with by you saying that they feel it's true that their prayers get answered, thus confirming the god they believe did it, it would confirm that they exclusive (according to their beliefs) god is real, creating a small problem, i didn't mean to argue that all are like these, it was just something that came into my mind though i think i should have thought more before saying it

anyway, let me try to respond regardless, i do not know much about religions in general, not even christianity or the bible much, since i don't think it's necessary to be an atheist, though as far as i know other gods don't show up in other religions holy books, that's what i mean about it being mutually exclusive, that according to the holy book, other religions or gods weren't present in their respective creationisms and therefore they don't exist according to that holy book

Another thing that can make these discussions hard is that even though most religious/spiritual folks recite over and over again that they lack scientific proof, hence why it's called "faith" and not "fact", that any sort of "proof" they have is only proof to them or a few others who choose to believe them, we're still constantly hammered to almost magically come up with some sort of scientific data. I think it's a difference of mind-set sometimes.

well, these kinds of discussions, like this thread is, is to prove and convince others about something, in this case that prayer works, if such thing did, it must be possible to prove that it did because whatever answered the prayer would have left clues that it acted upon it

I am fine not having scientific proof, because I know that the mysteries of God/Universe are more complex than my limited human mind can comprehend, so if I cannot comprehend it, I am unlikely to be able to find a way to quantify and measure it. I don't think the human brain is quite capable of being able to understand the universe enough to scientifically find proof for everything.

well, if i do not know, i'll just say i do not know, i won't jump to a conclusion that does not seem likely since there isn't proof of it, just because we don't know, doesn't mean that other explanations that invoke god are more plausible

you say that you are not capable of quantifying and measuring the mysteries of God/Universe, but by saying that you make an assertion that a god is real and that it is mysterious, which would probably require some knowledge and comprehension to do so i assume

Back to another part of the thread:

I was thinking, that if I do pray it's kind of different requests than is stereotypically portrayed as being prayed for. I don't ask for things like "please help me get X," or "heal this person" or "let me travel safely". I tend to more say something like "help me discover what direction is right for me" or "help me learn to be less judgmental and be more accepting of others".

The things I tend to pray for would likely be completely impossible to prove.

Jap prem,
H

well, you may not pray for those things, but some do, so those objections i raised earlier could still apply to them

your prayers however, are quite vague, and the problem is that you are also working towards them yourself, so when it is fulfilled, how do you know whether it was just by your will to change or that god answered the prayer?

[DriftingCrow]

Sat nam SilverGirl:

The thing with me though is that I always have claimed that "I don't know". I even had a joke "religion" with some of my friends, we are proud "IDontKnowist".

though as far as i know other gods don't show up in other religions holy books, that's what i mean about it being mutually exclusive, that according to the holy book, other religions or gods weren't present in their respective creationisms and therefore they don't exist according to that holy book

I am not trying to prove anything here, but you might find it interesting that in the Sikh holy book (Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) there are writings from Muslims, Hindus, and some other religions. The Sikh word for God is "Waheguru" but you'll often see the Islamic word "Allah" and other titles from other religions like "Krishna" in  SGGS because the truth in those other religions were seen and incorporated into the text. There's no creationist story in Sikhi, because we quite know that we can't prove any creationism story. Sat Nam means "(God's) Name is Truth", so many Sikhs follow the "creationism" theories brought about by scientists, like the Big Bang theory, and evolution, etc. because we follow truth. So far, nothing has proved there's not a Great Spirit, and I don't think there's really any way to prove it. Great Spirit isn't a big white guy with a beard sitting in some clouds, it's the energy, matter, atoms, negative space, etc. that's in everyone, everything, and everywhere <-- in my view anyways. We're "all from the same pond scum".


But, like I said before, I do think it's just a difference of mind-set and how different people look at and evaluate the world. I know you'll likely never understand my position. I didn't think the point of Anatta starting this thread was to get believers to "prove and convince others", I think she was just looking to see what people thought. I know I'll never be able to prove there's a Great Spirit, but believing in something works for me. If needing 100% scientific factual basis for everything works for you, go for it. Since I am happy in my little world here, not hurting others nor myself, I'll go on believing what I will.

Sleep well and enjoy the morning.

[SilverGirl]

Sat nam SilverGirl:

The thing with me though is that I always have claimed that "I don't know". I even had a joke "religion" with some of my friends, we are proud "IDontKnowist".


I am not trying to prove anything here, but you might find it interesting that in the Sikh holy book (Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) there are writings from Muslims, Hindus, and some other religions. The Sikh word for God is "Waheguru" but you'll often see the Islamic word "Allah" and other titles from other religions like "Krishna" in  SGGS because the truth in those other religions were seen and incorporated into the text. There's no creationist story in Sikhi, because we quite know that we can't prove any creationism story. Sat Nam means "(God's) Name is Truth", so many Sikhs follow the "creationism" theories brought about by scientists, like the Big Bang theory, and evolution, etc. because we follow truth. So far, nothing has proved there's not a Great Spirit, and I don't think there's really any way to prove it. Great Spirit isn't a big white guy with a beard sitting in some clouds, it's the energy, matter, atoms, negative space, etc. that's in everyone, everything, and everywhere <-- in my view anyways. We're "all from the same pond scum".


But, like I said before, I do think it's just a difference of mind-set and how different people look at and evaluate the world. I know you'll likely never understand my position. I didn't think the point of Anatta starting this thread was to get believers to "prove and convince others", I think she was just looking to see what people thought. I know I'll never be able to prove there's a Great Spirit, but believing in something works for me. If needing 100% scientific factual basis for everything works for you, go for it. Since I am happy in my little world here, not hurting others nor myself, I'll go on believing what I will.

Sleep well and enjoy the morning.

see? i don't know much about the religions themselves, i was wrong about mutually exclusion and i ended up just generalizing everything, thanks for the interesting information

well it may not have been to "prove and convince others", but there's nothing wrong about discussing it, and like i said before, anyone is allowed to believe whatever they desire

good night and good next day to you 

[Brandon]

i became a microbiologist after studying for 10 minutes yesterday, just talk to the peanut jelly alien that lives in saturn, he can confirm my story

do you believe me? if not, why?

see how i can just assert anything i want? that doesn't make it true

like i said before, feel free to provide your medical tests, preferably examined and commented by doctors, records of the prayers and proof showing the link that the specific prayer caused the healing, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

Look at eyes thats enough proof all they did was pray I don't have to lie or show you my medical history I know what I'm talking about you don't all clearly, Only thing you can do is say show me proof when its right there in front of your face, I don't need to show you a papper all I need is God he did it hem doctors didn't do anything, I don't even really go to doctors anymore.

[Codia]

I feel like praying does and does not work depending on ones personal perspective.  I believe strongly in the concept of one creating ones own reality and the power of manifestation.  If you believe praying makes a difference then it will in your own life; However if someone feels differently then perhaps praying may be a waste of their time