Questions for feminists or those schooled in feminism.

[Nero]

Didnt mean to focus on abortion, but the 8 or 9 issues in my first post together. Abortions not really something I think about, though I believe some natural inequalities arrive, just because of limits that may in the future be surpassed. Certainly I would rather anyone could get pregnant by anyone else, or that pregnancy would be not needed. (for androgynes, sterile couples, gay, lesbian, transsexuals, widows, or even single responsible persons). I apologize if my post sidetracked the posts.

Nah. I like to let the posts flow to wherever provided it has some relation to the topic. Makes for better conversation.

[Fae]

I don't speak Feminish, but from what I gather from the militant rants I've been subjected to -
One of the core beliefs of this doctrine is the theory that the sole difference between males and females is the body. No binary, just complimenting reproductive systems.
This theory explains why some feminists are so opposed to transsexuality.

Why did the foremothers of feminism adopt this theory?

I dont know the details here

I don't believe the foremothers adopted this theory, since feminism technically started in the late 1800s with women wanting more of a role than just housekeepers.  I think this theory appeared later when TG/TS became more publicly known during the 1950s and 60s.

I think the main objection some feminists have towards TG/TS is that those individuals who are TG/TS and decide to transition are encroaching on women's space and somehow have alternative motives (i.e. bringing down the feminist movement, etc.)

Can we please keep in mind that not all feminists are opposed to TG/TS?  I know several feminists at school, both male and female, who are fully supportive of my ->-bleeped-<- and my decision to transition.

Isn't feminism about all that is 'Woman'?

Technically yes, though in recent years the movement has been slowly focusing, in one way or another, on equality for everyone: male, female, and TG/TS

Why isn't feminism a monument to the unique qualities that make women different to men?

The movement, AFAIK, is meant as a means of empowerment for women to celebrate who they are as women, however, the main focus is to bring equality between the sexes, not to celebrate the differences, but this is not the case for all feminists.

I think we need to be clear that there are many differing views within the feminist movement, and to make statements such as "all feminists are..." only hurts the movement because it creates negative stereotypes.

Why isn't feminism a celebration of womanhood? (because it ain't if the only difference is penis vs vagina)

See previous

Again, I don't speak feminist tongue, so feel free to correct me if I've translated wrong.
The only terms I know are 'patriarchy', misogyny', and 'binary'. Picked up from the militant rants I've been subjected to.
So, in layman's terms please.

Nero

Simply put, patriarchy is the system which society exists today, where men are the dominant sex.  Society is created by men, for men, and ruled by men.  Under the patriarchy, women are seen as submissive and less than men.  The continued existence of the patriarchy only serves to perpetuate the continued inequality of women.

I don't know about the other two terms.

~Fae

[Thundra]

Simply put, patriarchy is the system which society exists today, where men are the dominant sex.  Society is created by men, for men, and ruled by men.  Under the patriarchy, women are seen as submissive and less than men.  The continued existence of the patriarchy only serves to perpetuate the continued inequality of women.

I don't know about the other two terms.

~Fae

Well said, well said!  Here, here!

It's so refreshing to see so many well versed in the ideology and the terminolgy today. Asiangurlie, and now Fae, you make me smile and warm my heart.

[Shana A]

Women make her own final decision with regard to abortion. *Her* body , *her* choice.

Exactly Asiangurlee! A parallel thought regarding transwomen and transmen, our bodies, our choice. I believe this choice is supported by feminism. Feminist thought also encompasses raising ones awareness of patriarchy, racism, homophobia, classism, and their effects on all of us, women, men and others outside the binary. I don't hate men, I know men who are compassionate and caring. I reject male priviledge, however it's important to recognize ways in which it has been granted it to me regardless to whether I wanted it or not.

zythyra

[Fae]

Simply put, patriarchy is the system which society exists today, where men are the dominant sex.  Society is created by men, for men, and ruled by men.  Under the patriarchy, women are seen as submissive and less than men.  The continued existence of the patriarchy only serves to perpetuate the continued inequality of women.

I don't know about the other two terms.

~Fae

Well said, well said!  Here, here!

It's so refreshing to see so many well versed in the ideology and the terminolgy today. Asiangurlie, and now Fae, you make me smile and warm my heart.

Women make her own final decision with regard to abortion. *Her* body , *her* choice.

Exactly Asiangurlee! A parallel thought regarding transwomen and transmen, our bodies, our choice.

*claps* My thoughts exactly! 

[Owen]

Respect of the differences between men and women should be the core focus. Women have contributed to humankind in so many ways. I might be a little crude here so pardon me. I think some feminists are trying to prove that they are women just like some men are trying to prove that they are men. If someone doesn't know that by now, I feel pity for them. To me it's wasted energy that can be better spent on the things that really oppress people.

Respecting difference is about appreciating that person for who THEY are, not what we think they should be. People who have touched my life were men and women who went outside the box.


Gennee 

This is so true Gennee. Respecting and appreciating people for who they are is paramount. To many times I hear others say how they think I should be, how I should look or dress. I don't need to prove who I am as I know who I am and act accordingly.


Linda Ann

[Nero]

I don't agree with you that the 'rest of the world' believes men are from Mars-women are from Venus. Why don't you talk about what you believe instead of referring to what 'the rest of the world' believes, wouldn't that be more fair?

By that statement, I meant that most of the world agrees that men and women have differences besides the organ between their legs. Some feminists believe the body is the sole difference between men and women. That they are the same as men only with breasts and a vagina. Some of the feminists who do admit there are differences between male and female besides the sex organs, attribute the differences to hormones. (which I have had many long debates with feminists on. And incidentally, the reason I was so vehement with this on my hormone thread)

I believe there are fundamental differences between men and women. The most clear of these differences to me, is the way women react to situations differently than men. They behave differently, they communicate differently - and this is true even of tomboyish or butch women.
Now mind you, I am NOT saying that women all act the same. I'm saying that in conversation or just hanging out, I can tell when I'm speaking with a female.
This is never more blatantly obvious than in the midst of a debate or argument. That's when even TS put their guard down and forget whether they're 'behaving' male or female.

I would think that TS persons would share this view that there's more to being a man or woman than just sex organs or hormones.
If not, why transition to the opposite sex if it's all the same? If an mtf needs estrogen to make her a woman, then why transition in the first place? Why the dysphoria? If she doesn't already think and feel like a woman, what could be her motive for transition?
To wear pretty clothes? To get men? To live out a fantasy?
You see where I'm going with this? And why the 'Estrogen made me think and feel like a woman' statement irritates me?

Nero will address the remainder of your post later.

[Nero]

In terms of your hrt opinion... not so certain I totally agree. No, I don't think hrt will make you think like a woman. You either think that way or not. But I do believe that a lifetime of exposure to T (combined with socialization) does have some powerful repressive properties (yes, I know I'm massively biased) and that minimizing the effects of T does help liberate some people, and free their minds to express feelings and ways of expression they couldn't allow themselves before. Does that create the behavior? I believe no. But does it allow the repressed behaviors and feelings to become expressed, yeah, I think so. And again, not the same for everyone.

That's pretty much along the lines of the conversation MEW (Melissa) and I had the other day. She's one of the ones who insists she thinks and feels female on HRT. So then we theorized maybe it isn't the estrogen, but the lack of T. Which makes sense when you think about it. If a genetic woman has a little too much T in her system, it can overpower the E and shift her body shape to a more masculine look. Which is pretty much the same thing that happens on HRT. It shifts the body shape. Even a small amount of T can overpower E. E is so much weaker.

While having the wrong body parts is equally discomforting for mtf and ftm, maybe the wrong hormone situation isn't equal. The only bad thing with E (besides physical stuff) is the menses and the strong surge of it shortly beforehand - that's really the only time I'm uncomfortable with it, because it does induce emotional stuff.
Maybe testosterone in a female is more drastic and uncomfortable than estrogen in a male. Because it is so much more powerful. I would think T would be more of an affront to the female's sensibilities than E for a male (of course some ftms may disagree). I mean, estrogen really doesn't do all that much. Except make one more emotional - a trait I'm going to miss once on HRT, as it's so much the better for creating and writing.
I think estrogen should feel completely natural to a female and T for a male. Natural, not make you something you weren't before.
So yes, I agree with you that being free of T may be responsible for some effects some ladies are feeling.

MEW: Anything you want to add to this?

[SarahFaceDoom]

I agree with what was said before with regards to feminism being humanism.  To me it's about equality and acceptance.  I feel like sex is one thing, and it should not pre-determine anything.  Whereas gender is actually more about who you are and how you are expressing yourself.  And that is much more malleable and these days increasingly fluid.  In some ways I feel like genderqueer is kind of the forefront of where a lot of people in society would be right now if we weren't so attached at the roots to a binary system.  Or at least that is sort of more a shot in the right direction.  Because I do feel like sometimes that trans people are so hellbent to be accepted, that they may run away from aspects of themselves that they don't particularly really dislike, or feel uncomfortable with, just so that they will fit in better.  And a large part of that pressure IS that the medical community and psychiatric community have set themselves up as our gatekeepers, and I don't think that is right at all.  They should be there to help you make as healthy and effective transition as possible, but they shouldn't be there testing and prodding you at every turn.  It's not their job to shape gender, and I think it's a gross overstep--anyways, I just feel like even that very radical feminist perspective has room to accept trans-people, and we'd all be better off for it.  Which I think is why you see that as the minority, and the majority of feminists are very accepting of transpeople. 

[shiva]

@genee

I think some feminists are trying to prove that they are women just like some men are trying to prove that they are men. If someone doesn't know that by now, I feel pity for them. To me it's wasted energy that can be better spent on the things that really oppress people.

Thats' a refreshing take on what drives some feminists. Certainly I've always though that some of the feminists had to be hurt people who feel inferior and will spend the rest of their life trying to prove they are as good as another person.

[cindybc]

Hi Nero

I know this thread has not had any activity on it for the last 30 days. Well if you or anyone else comes back to check I just wanted to say what my experience with the mones were like for me. Now some here claim the hormones don't do to much in the sense of feeling feminine, and to tell the truth I would be stumped it trying to explain that.

These are the changes I have felt through the past 7 years on the hormones. My consciousness is much more keen then before, even my hearing and sensing things, my power of observation is much more sensitive then before, or is it that I had these sensitivities all along and just never noticed them  before. But then I raised 11 children through the years which has also helped me develop intuition. 

Emotions are also way more profound and even my orgasms are way more intense then before surgery. But then to say that I feel more like a woman, I would not know how to define this.

I am who I am, I am just me, I am a woman, would be my description of myself..

Cindy