{TRIGGERS} Being a woman...

[stephaniec]

Well, I'm not really talking about how the woman views herself, but how the world views her. And the impact that has on young girls. The truly confident and secure cis woman is rare. And yes, it does seem to be the females deemed conventionally attractive who suffer most. Maybe the others grow up not having their looks shoved down their throat every day. As a teen and young woman, I heard every day from everyone - complete strangers - about my face and tits. It's hard not to develop a complex from that. And then to transition into a man - well, most cis girls don't have that perspective. I really started to see things and realize a lot of my current issues stem from this.

I have horrible social anxiety. And some of it probably is from not being able to walk down the street without being stared at. Having my body constantly commented on. Being a man and seen as a full being by people doesn't compute for me. I was used to being a walking pair of tits. The world looks so different now. I feel seen in a way I never was. It's nice, but really unsettling. And has really brung home for me that I'm seen as a person now, a thing before.

it's nice to have an honest perspective from the other side of the river.

[Beverly]

The main difference I've noticed between being a man and being a woman - is that being a woman is to just 'be'. A woman just 'is'. She's valuable for being alive and this value increases or decreases with how decorative she is. She doesn't have to 'do' anything. A man is valued for what he does. Not for being alive. Not for being decorative. In some ways this is a curse, for men are seen as disposable and much is expected of them. But they get to choose in a way women don't. A woman's fate is already decided by genetics (or how long she can starve herself and how much money she has for surgeons if genetics weren't kind).

That view of women is so distorted that it verges on being misogynistic.

I know women who are doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, engineers and businesswomen. They are judged on their ability just like men are. Their beauty (or lack of it) is not the issue.

I mix with businesswomen in their 40s and 50s who run their own businesses and they take no static from men or younger, more beautiful women. Yes they get comments from men but most men recognise that these women are capable and smart and they give them respect as a result. The images of how women are shown in the media annoy many of these women and they have learned to ignore it. Men who take the wrong sort of interest usually get told fairly sharply that such behaviour is not acceptable.

The other day I was treated by a nurse specialist who knew her stuff. I will bet that none of her job assessments and promotion interviews had a box marked "Is she pretty - tick if yes".

My niece is a very competent prosecutor who works prosecuting those accused of sex offences. She has risen quickly because of her talent and ability, not her looks.

Some of these women are plain. Some are beautiful. One is stunning. It makes no difference because they are all successful at what they do. I have seen other women, some plain, some beautiful and some stunners and they are at the bottom of the heap and treated the cr*p.

So beauty is not a differentiator - you can be beautiful and successful or beautiful and a flop. Likewise you can be ugly and successful or ugly and a flop. On the other hand, education, self-belief and self-confidence ARE differentiators. Someone who believes in themselves and sets out to educate themselves and seizes opportunities will do well whether she is beautiful or not.

There are millions upon millions of women whose success and respect does NOT rely on beauty and to make beauty the sole determination of a women's worth is downright insulting. Women are as capable as men and many of them prove it day in and day out, over and over again. In all walks of life there are women showing that competence counts more than beauty.

To be sure, the beauty industry tries very hard to push perfection as the norm and it does affect a lot of females, but not most of them. Women generally do like to look nice and so are prone to this but the beauty industry is now starting the same assault on men and male grooming products are being pushed along with the message that you must look right to be a man. Cosmetic surgeries for men are on the increase too so this malaise does not affect just women. It is a money-making machine working on both sexes.

Society has changed enormously in the last 100 years and in some places more than others, but the change is still happening and one of the drivers of the change is WOMEN and their realisation that they can determine their own destiny and that they do not have to accept other people's judgement of them. This social movement has produced huge benefits for humanity and will make more differences as misogynistic and paternalistic societies and attitudes are torn down.

A woman is more than her beauty. Much, much more.

[sam79]

Well, I'm not really talking about how the woman views herself, but how the world views her. And the impact that has on young girls. The truly confident and secure cis woman is rare. And yes, it does seem to be the females deemed conventionally attractive who suffer most. Maybe the others grow up not having their looks shoved down their throat every day. As a teen and young woman, I heard every day from everyone - complete strangers - about my face and tits. It's hard not to develop a complex from that. And then to transition into a man - well, most cis girls don't have that perspective. I really started to see things and realize a lot of my current issues stem from this.

I have horrible social anxiety. And some of it probably is from not being able to walk down the street without being stared at. Having my body constantly commented on. Being a man and seen as a full being by people doesn't compute for me. I was used to being a walking pair of tits. The world looks so different now. I feel seen in a way I never was. It's nice, but really unsettling. And has really brung home for me that I'm seen as a person now, a thing before.

It's interesting being put in this world that I knew existed, but was never a part of for much of my life.

Something interesting is happening for me at the moment. I've applied for a position with a company that I would be perfect for. However it's in a field largely dominated by men. The same field I had worked in as a male. Since applying, I've been told numerous times how advantageous it is to be a woman in this field. A woman in a male dominated field is apparently very valuable. I'm more than happy to use my gender to my advantage, although I don't understand what makes me more valuable. Does it matter that I'm more valuable in this situation? No, not really.

But as you say, when I walk down the street, I'm just long legs, boobs and maybe worth a momentary thought. At least that's the way most men act towards me. Does it matter that I'm less valuable in this situation? No, not really. I take the good with the bad .

I'm not denying the impact of society on young girls. It's horrendous! It does do permanent damage. I see the damage in my cis friends. Also a trap that I, ( and I suspect ) many other transwomen don't get the chance to fall into. We bare another kind of damage entirely.

A man ( or woman for that matter ) can value me however they want. But how does that really effect me? I'm not sure it does.

[Nero]

The main difference I've noticed between being a man and being a woman - is that being a woman is to just 'be'. A woman just 'is'. She's valuable for being alive and this value increases or decreases with how decorative she is. She doesn't have to 'do' anything. A man is valued for what he does. Not for being alive. Not for being decorative. In some ways this is a curse, for men are seen as disposable and much is expected of them. But they get to choose in a way women don't. A woman's fate is already decided by genetics (or how long she can starve herself and how much money she has for surgeons if genetics weren't kind).

That view of women is so distorted that it verges on being misogynistic.

I know women who are doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, engineers and businesswomen. They are judged on their ability just like men are. Their beauty (or lack of it) is not the issue.

I mix with businesswomen in their 40s and 50s who run their own businesses and they take no static from men or younger, more beautiful women. Yes they get comments from men but most men recognise that these women are capable and smart and they give them respect as a result. The images of how women are shown in the media annoy many of these women and they have learned to ignore it. Men who take the wrong sort of interest usually get told fairly sharply that such behaviour is not acceptable.

The other day I was treated by a nurse specialist who knew her stuff. I will bet that none of her job assessments and promotion interviews had a box marked "Is she pretty - tick if yes".

My niece is a very competent prosecutor who works prosecuting those accused of sex offences. She has risen quickly because of her talent and ability, not her looks.

Some of these women are plain. Some are beautiful. One is stunning. It makes no difference because they are all successful at what they do. I have seen other women, some plain, some beautiful and some stunners and they are at the bottom of the heap and treated the cr*p.

So beauty is not a differentiator - you can be beautiful and successful or beautiful and a flop. Likewise you can be ugly and successful or ugly and a flop. On the other hand, education, self-belief and self-confidence ARE differentiators. Someone who believes in themselves and sets out to educate themselves and seizes opportunities will do well whether she is beautiful or not.

There are millions upon millions of women whose success and respect does NOT rely on beauty and to make beauty the sole determination of a women's worth is downright insulting. Women are as capable as men and many of them prove it day in and day out, over and over again. In all walks of life there are women showing that competence counts more than beauty.

To be sure, the beauty industry tries very hard to push perfection as the norm and it does affect a lot of females, but not most of them. Women generally do like to look nice and so are prone to this but the beauty industry is now starting the same assault on men and male grooming products are being pushed along with the message that you must look right to be a man. Cosmetic surgeries for men are on the increase too so this malaise does not affect just women. It is a money-making machine working on both sexes.

Society has changed enormously in the last 100 years and in some places more than others, but the change is still happening and one of the drivers of the change is WOMEN and their realisation that they can determine their own destiny and that they do not have to accept other people's judgement of them. This social movement has produced huge benefits for humanity and will make more differences as misogynistic and paternalistic societies and attitudes are torn down.

A woman is more than her beauty. Much, much more.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The exception proves the rule. And being successful in other areas doesn't shield women from this. I never said there weren't successful women. I never said there weren't happy women. What I am saying is that women are valued for their looks first, everything second. I'm honestly surprised that saying this is so controversial. I guess it goes back to what I was saying - we all want to believe in equality and fairness. But women are not seen the same as men. Those same women you're talking about probably make less than their male counterparts. They probably have had facelifts. They probably are dieting. Because they are still judged as a whole on something men are not.

[sad panda]

Something interesting is happening for me at the moment. I've applied for a position with a company that I would be perfect for. However it's in a field largely dominated by men. The same field I had worked in as a male. Since applying, I've been told numerous times how advantageous it is to be a woman in this field. A woman in a male dominated field is apparently very valuable. I'm more than happy to use my gender to my advantage, although I don't understand what makes me more valuable. Does it matter that I'm more valuable in this situation? No, not really.

That's probably hiring quotas, basically it's because of being female and only that, nothing to do with *who* is applying, they just want or need to be able to say a certain number of women work there.

[Inanna]

I know my experiences aren't as valid in this conversation because they're not the majority's experience, though I'll share anyway.

Until I made an effort to challenge my own views, I always perceived men as machines.  Active objects, but objects nonetheless.  I've always intrinsically seen women as real human beings, perhaps in part because I sense their expressed emotions are more reflective of their inner world.  Women seem to be a complete circle, men a malformed circle.

I concur that the world as a whole doesn't see it this way.  I know women are objectified and reduced; I've lived as one all of my 20's. 

With that said, I have a theory.  I wonder, FA, if part of the way we interpret the world's perception of men and women is informed by our own instincts.  Perhaps humans tend to view the opposite gender as objects because they can't truly understand them (and also because of mate selection).  And men, historically being the empowered gender, have created the prevailing environment of women being objects.  Growing up, you were male on the inside, which (in tandem with society's views), may have led you to seeing men more as human beings than women.  When directed at yourself because of your outward sex, I can see how this would have been additionally harmful. 

Then again, I may have no idea what I'm talking about.  Happens quite often. 

[stephaniec]

That view of women is so distorted that it verges on being misogynistic.

I know women who are doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, engineers and businesswomen. They are judged on their ability just like men are. Their beauty (or lack of it) is not the issue.

I mix with businesswomen in their 40s and 50s who run their own businesses and they take no static from men or younger, more beautiful women. Yes they get comments from men but most men recognise that these women are capable and smart and they give them respect as a result. The images of how women are shown in the media annoy many of these women and they have learned to ignore it. Men who take the wrong sort of interest usually get told fairly sharply that such behaviour is not acceptable.

The other day I was treated by a nurse specialist who knew her stuff. I will bet that none of her job assessments and promotion interviews had a box marked "Is she pretty - tick if yes".

My niece is a very competent prosecutor who works prosecuting those accused of sex offences. She has risen quickly because of her talent and ability, not her looks.

Some of these women are plain. Some are beautiful. One is stunning. It makes no difference because they are all successful at what they do. I have seen other women, some plain, some beautiful and some stunners and they are at the bottom of the heap and treated the cr*p.

So beauty is not a differentiator - you can be beautiful and successful or beautiful and a flop. Likewise you can be ugly and successful or ugly and a flop. On the other hand, education, self-belief and self-confidence ARE differentiators. Someone who believes in themselves and sets out to educate themselves and seizes opportunities will do well whether she is beautiful or not.

There are millions upon millions of women whose success and respect does NOT rely on beauty and to make beauty the sole determination of a women's worth is downright insulting. Women are as capable as men and many of them prove it day in and day out, over and over again. In all walks of life there are women showing that competence counts more than beauty.

To be sure, the beauty industry tries very hard to push perfection as the norm and it does affect a lot of females, but not most of them. Women generally do like to look nice and so are prone to this but the beauty industry is now starting the same assault on men and male grooming products are being pushed along with the message that you must look right to be a man. Cosmetic surgeries for men are on the increase too so this malaise does not affect just women. It is a money-making machine working on both sexes.

Society has changed enormously in the last 100 years and in some places more than others, but the change is still happening and one of the drivers of the change is WOMEN and their realisation that they can determine their own destiny and that they do not have to accept other people's judgement of them. This social movement has produced huge benefits for humanity and will make more differences as misogynistic and paternalistic societies and attitudes are torn down.

A woman is more than her beauty. Much, much more.



This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The exception proves the rule. And being successful in other areas doesn't shield women from this. I never said there weren't successful women. I never said there weren't happy women. What I am saying is that women are valued for their looks first, everything second. I'm honestly surprised that saying this is so controversial. I guess it goes back to what I was saying - we all want to believe in equality and fairness. But women are not seen the same as men. Those same women you're talking about probably make less than their male counterparts. They probably have had facelifts. They probably are dieting. Because they are still judged as a whole on something men are not.

a deeply ingrained belief system is hard to view objectively to the point at which you deny having that system. A belief system that is orchestrated from birth. Why is it so hard for parents to accept their transgender children , because of the value society puts on things . A parent believes they're in the right to deny a child's true gender. I think your getting all this flack because you have a perspective from being a birth child and see things because you lived it.

[Joanna Dark]

To be sure, the beauty industry tries very hard to push perfection as the norm and it does affect a lot of females, but not most of them. Women generally do like to look nice and so are prone to this but the beauty industry is now starting the same assault on men and male grooming products are being pushed along with the message that you must look right to be a man. Cosmetic surgeries for men are on the increase too so this malaise does not affect just women. It is a money-making machine working on both sexes.

That's interesting about men's grooming. Because men generally look like crap (I'm being facetious). I know because my boyfriend and I walk around and people watch and talk about how they are dressed and other stuff. But, don't take my word for it, take FashInvest's word, a beauty and finance site. They made it just for me! Anyhoo, in 2014 men's grooming products will make $26 billion in profits. Sounds big, right? Well, women's is estimated at almost $500 billion, yup half a trillion, annually. That's 20 times as much. Also, take into account a large portion of that $26 billion prolly has to do with the outrageous cost of razors. I don't know.

I come from a different perspective because I have never worked in the industries most trans women work for. I worked in the...wait for it...women's magazine industry as as...wait for it...parenting/fashion and beauty editor! Before that I went to college and most of my closest friends have been women, specifically there, lesbian womyn and feminists. Excpet for right now where the most awesome coolest person I know is a man. And he's super hot so I'm just as guilty if not more so of this focus on beauty as anyone. But, just like FA is saying, he is basically the only person who treats me as a human being and cares about my feelings and listens to my thoughts and sticks up for me.

[jussmoi4nao]

I don't think FA pointing out that in our society a womans worth is just her beauty is sexist, its just his observation, he's not saying it's right. Even tho I think he exaggerates a teensy bit here and there I agree with a lot of what he's saying. I keep feeling lately when I don't feel pretty I feel worthless, and when I do feel pretty it's all I'm worth, really.

It's like when guys have bad days, like everybody does occasionally, it doesn't matter. They're just lovably messy. But when girls do they become lazy, slobs, trash redneck etc. I can't even where my comfort hoodie that my gramma gave me when I was 12 cuz it's ratty and it's like I mean nothing to the world with it on. And my hir, omg. Some days its hard to find a good style at my current length and I literally don't wana leave the house or even my room. I won't even let my family see me without foundation cuz I looked washed out, I hide my face when I'm too lazy to put it on cuz I think I look tired and plain and 10 year old boyish without it, even though I still pass, regardless. I think most women are simultaneously made to feel worthless without makeup but guilty for being so obssessed with it, it's a very objectifying culture.

As for what it means to BE a woman, don't know, don't care. I'm just like, whatever, who cares? If identifying as one and functioning as one socially and looking like one and soinding like one and acting like one and all that doesn't make me one then I don't really need to be one, cuz that's all I need,and I've got that. So who cares. Maybe I amm just a sad little boy but I do a good job of fooling people otherwise. F it, you don't live long enough to care about this crap. Just be whatever, be a man be woman be hybrid be nothing, just f'ing breath, eat, sleep, have sex have fun and forget the rest, cuz b*tchh you gonna die anyway.

[sam79]

just f'ing breath, eat, sleep, have sex have fun and forget the rest, cuz b*tchh you gonna die anyway.

Someone's in a relaxed mood today

[Nero]

I know my experiences aren't as valid in this conversation because they're not the majority's experience, though I'll share anyway.

Until I made an effort to challenge my own views, I always perceived men as machines.  Active objects, but objects nonetheless.  I've always intrinsically seen women as real human beings, perhaps in part because I sense their expressed emotions are more reflective of their inner world.  Women seem to be a complete circle, men a malformed circle.

I concur that the world as a whole doesn't see it this way.  I know women are objectified and reduced; I've lived as one all of my 20's. 

With that said, I have a theory.  I wonder, FA, if part of the way we interpret the world's perception of men and women is informed by our own instincts.  Perhaps humans tend to view the opposite gender as objects because they can't truly understand them (and also because of mate selection).  And men, historically being the empowered gender, have created the prevailing environment of women being objects.  Growing up, you were male on the inside, which (in tandem with society's views), may have led you to seeing men more as human beings than women.  When directed at yourself because of your outward sex, I can see how this would have been additionally harmful. 

Then again, I may have no idea what I'm talking about.  Happens quite often. 

That's certainly an interesting point. It may be true. It probably does feel different to me than it does women - cis and trans.

I know I'm saying things in extreme and harsh terms - like feeling like a plant. But that's because it's so hard to describe this feeling, this way of being in the world. Sometimes you just need to shout something to explain it. I get mad at myself for always ending up here - talking about this. When I try to talk about this, I often end up drinking. I've been actively trying to fix myself, help myself, examine what's wrong. And this - whatever it is that I keep talking about is a large part of it.
And I come here - to the only safe space I know to try to expel this poison. But people always seem to want to argue about this, and no doubt my way of speaking about it in such harsh and stark terms is to blame. But that's because I'm here trying to throw up. Like charcoal in the ER. Trying to throw up this poison so I can live.

I certainly never mean to hurt or upset anyone. I just need to throw up. And throwing up is never pretty. Maybe if I throw all this up enough, I will get better. Heal.

I'm going to leave this thread for now because I am feeling unwell and need to try to sleep. But I appreciate all of you for talking with me and will come back to address replies. I just ask that you please try to understand what this is for me.

[Tori]

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. The exception proves the rule. And being successful in other areas doesn't shield women from this. I never said there weren't successful women. I never said there weren't happy women. What I am saying is that women are valued for their looks first, everything second. I'm honestly surprised that saying this is so controversial. I guess it goes back to what I was saying - we all want to believe in equality and fairness. But women are not seen the same as men. Those same women you're talking about probably make less than their male counterparts. They probably have had facelifts. They probably are dieting. Because they are still judged as a whole on something men are not.

No credible scientist would claim an exception ever proves a rule. To say an exception proves a rule is again, fallacious. It is taking someone's evidence to the contrary to bolster your entirely different opinion. That can prevent this thread from being a conversation, if it does not matter to you what anyone says to the contrary, as it just "Proves" your point. 

You say women are valued for their looks first and everything else second. And then you wonder why what you say is controversial, in a forum full of many women who value women for everything else first, and looks second. Also, you say this in a room full of many women who struggle daily, not to look beautiful but simply to look female.

Then you throw a few straw men into the mix by assuming these women, presented to you as examples, are most likely underpaid, face-lifted, anorexics.

As I understand it, the income inequality has less and less to do with getting equal pay for equal work, and more to do with the salary offered at jobs women tend to do as compared to jobs that men tend to do. There are also, more single mothers than single fathers, and raising a family alone can interfere with career goals, thus increasing the odds of single mothers living at or near poverty. There is a discrepancy in pay, but it has more nuance than just assuming the man working beside me makes more just for being a man.

The assumptions that these women have probably had facelifts and are probably on diets, are the types of comments that leave me surprised when you wonder out loud why this thread is SO controversial. Why? Because those assumptions seem to shed light on your narrow view of women, rather than society's.

I hope that clears some things up for you FA, since it seems you want input from us in spite of your firmly rooted opinions.

I do love your approach to topics FA, as we don't see this type of conversation too often in this forum. I don't have hurt feelings.

[jussmoi4nao]

Someone's in a relaxed mood today

I hada lil to drink I ain't even gonna lie. I can't handle alcohol tho xD

[Joanna Dark]

As I understand it, the income inequality has less and less to do with getting equal pay for equal work, and more to do with the salary offered at jobs women tend to do as compared to jobs that men tend to do.

what do you mean by this: because it could mean that somehow society deems what men want to accomplish as more worthy than the things women want to do? Example: why are daycare teachers paid so poorly? But who runs society. Oh yeah, men.

I actually don't think this is controversial at all and that it was pretty common knowledge.

[sam79]

FA, I'm sorry that this is something that you need to deal with, but I'm glad you have an audience.

We all have scars to bare. Cis or trans. Man or woman. Some more than others.

I'd like to share, my huge scar is all of those missing years, the years I didn't live as the girl I am. The missing childhood and teenage years. It is and forever will be my biggest scar and hangup. It's something that I have no way to heal or fix however much I want to deal with it. All I can do is live with the gaping proverbial scar across my back, and hope that over time it fades or recedes a little.

[Tori]

Yes Joanna,

I aknowledge a discrepancy in pay, I am just pointing out that it has more to do with salaries for "Women's work" as compared to "Men's work"... as well as the fact that many single mothers have to take part time or entry level jobs.

It is still a discrepancy. It is still an issue.

Women making less for doing the same job as men, is less common than it was not too long ago.

[stephaniec]

Please , what I'm going to say is just opinion , please ignore if you don't agree. I mean no harm and have no intention of getting into a long heated debate. I just voicing my particular non provocative understanding of this debate. This is a reality of life in this culture about how woman are to be perceived. woman do make less than men for the same job. maybe it's a whole lot better than it use to be but it's an undeniable reality. It wasn't too long ago that a prestigious medical university was scrutinized because a gifted female surgeon quit the faculty and hospital because she was trashed by her male colleagues  just because she was a woman. She quit to expose the problem and took her job back, but why did she have to do that in the first place. To deny  this is not a serious issue in our society is ludicrous . Yea, maybe as FA admits he goes over board to get the point across  but some times it needs to be done that way because the problem is so interwoven into societies value system. There are vast amounts of documentation of unequal pay. As far as a woman's looks affect their careers just turn to the movie industry. there are a few woman that still have careers after the features aren't as plump as they were when they were thirty ,but they are few and far between. I'm just giving an opinion and not trying to cause the site to crash. sorry  for the rant. also how many " unattractive " woman are legends in the sex industry. Also if I'm not viewing the argument properly just ignore this. It's even worse in the MTF transgender family. some say if your not good looking enough you don't belong in the family. this is basically the same concept. Or If you don't "pass" don't bother. sorry

[Tori]

As for the movie industry, sadly, looks matter for women and men. People WATCH movies, so studios go to great lengths to insure the audience likes what they see.

Male stars tend to make more than female stars... also, male driven movies generally fare better at the box office so it may not be sexism but rather the bottom line.

[Joanna Dark]

This says anything better than I can:

You know you turn me on
Eyes so white and legs so long
But don't try to talk to me
I won't listen to your lies
You're just an object in my eyes
You're just an object in my eyes

Sophisticated smile
You seduce in such fine style
But don't try to fool me
'cause I can see through your disguise
You're just an object in my eyes
You're just an object in my eyes

But I don't mind
I just don't care
I've got no objection
To you touching me there

Object object
Object object
Object object
Object object

You know just what to do
Lick your lips
And I want you
But don't try to hold me
'cause I don't want any ties
You're just an object in my eyes
You're just an object in my eyes

But I don't mind
I just don't care
I've got no objections
To you touching me there
You're just an object object
Object object
You're just an object

[Joanna Dark]

Yes, I'm so lame I reply to my own posts. But what this song "Object:" by the Cure means to me as how some men view women as objects that don't matter, that are fun and great to have around and then can be thrown away, cause you're an object. In fact, I talked about my dating woes on here and i dated this lawyer and I ->-bleeped-<-ed him last week and he loved it and now...nothing. I feel like a whore. I feel worthless and the only reason I'm even okay is because my ex or real BF has been super nice to me and started talking to me again. In fact I talked to him for like six hours just today. If not for him, I'd be a hotter mess than I already am. But, yet, I still feel used and like a effing object. He could have at least paid me $500. Yeah, I'm top shelf lol Dinner and drinks isn't enough. I went out with him three times before I did it, so I think that's plenty.