{TRIGGERS} Being a woman...

[Nero]

I'm sorry then. I guess I took it the wrong way. I do agree with pretty much evrything you're saying, BTW.

That's okay sweetie.

To illustrate my point to everyone -

this is me. Not literally, no. But this is what it felt like.



Mounds of flesh. Things. A thing. Sorry, but there really isn't anything comparable men go through. That doesn't mean being a man doesn't suck, dying in wars, losing in custody battles, seen as potential predators, stifled from expressing emotion, etc. But through all this, they are still seen as HUMAN BEINGS in society. Women really aren't.

[ErinM]

Because that it how you present it. You said ...

"We grow up in a world where people like us, with bodies like ours are highly sexualized and posed half naked on billboards, TV, everywhere. Society's glaring message is that we are SEX. Men are human beings. They can be ugly, fat, nerdy, old and still win the day. We can't. "

.... and that reads as "men have it better than women". They don't. Men may not be sexualised in the same way as women, but the sexual role assigned to men (predator) is nothing to shout about from billboards.


That's debatable. Look, I've transitioned and pass perfectly as man. So yeah, I know what it's like to be afraid to help a little child at a grocery store. Trust me, it's not comparable. Like I said, I never said men or male born people have it easy. It sucks on both sides. But try growing up knowing your worth hangs on your flesh and how good it looks. To be a pair of tits at 11. And then you might know what I'm getting at.

FA, I get that this is something that you are struggling with and it's clear that you have suffered from it. We've been down this avenue before in the general forums.

I hear you. Growing up in a female role is damaging. But I am confused as to what you are looking for when bringing this conversation to the MTF board.

It's not that we (or at least I) don't want to understand, but rather we (or at least I) can never completely understand because we (or at least I) haven't experienced it.

It's only natural that we would discuss this from our perspective, and that we would bring up our own struggles because it's our experience.

[Nero]

Because that it how you present it. You said ...

"We grow up in a world where people like us, with bodies like ours are highly sexualized and posed half naked on billboards, TV, everywhere. Society's glaring message is that we are SEX. Men are human beings. They can be ugly, fat, nerdy, old and still win the day. We can't. "

.... and that reads as "men have it better than women". They don't. Men may not be sexualised in the same way as women, but the sexual role assigned to men (predator) is nothing to shout about from billboards.


That's debatable. Look, I've transitioned and pass perfectly as man. So yeah, I know what it's like to be afraid to help a little child at a grocery store. Trust me, it's not comparable. Like I said, I never said men or male born people have it easy. It sucks on both sides. But try growing up knowing your worth hangs on your flesh and how good it looks. To be a pair of tits at 11. And then you might know what I'm getting at.

FA, I get that this is something that you are struggling with and it's clear that you have suffered from it. We've been down this avenue before in the general forums.

I hear you. Growing up in a female role is damaging. But I am confused as to what you are looking for when bringing this conversation to the MTF board.

It's not that we (or at least I) don't want to understand, but rather we (or at least I) can never completely understand because we (or at least I) haven't experienced it.

It's only natural that we would discuss this from our perspective, and that we would bring up our own struggles because it's our experience.

Just to talk I guess. I didn't mean for this thread to turn into this. Really, I didn't. I guess I just need to talk about it. Among friends. I have no female ones (in RL) and you can't talk to men about these things.

[sad panda]

I remember when i was briefly taking classes living as a boy and somehow ended up in a class of only like 2 girls and 15+ boys. The girls dropped it pretty quick and They didn't have to be on their best behavior anymore and having never had male friends it was really a culture shock to me. The professor was a woman and they didn't like her teaching style... they didn't talk about why they didn't like it though. They just talked about ->-bleeped-<-ing her. constantly, when she was barely even out of earshot. I would take the long way to the bathrooms tonget away from them and that's all they'd talk about every break. One of the guys in that class would talk to me sometimes and whenever he would mention a female student he wouldn't say anything about who she was, just her ass. Did that so many times. I was always too afraid to call him out on it since i had really bad social anxiety and would just nod and go uh huh to people who talked to me, apparently they interpreted that as friendly so he never got that I didn't want to hear it. Good lord I got so tired of his ->-bleeped-<-. I still have a hard time believing that men think like this but being confronted with it was pretty awful.

[ErinM]

Just to talk I guess. I didn't mean for this thread to turn into this. Really, I didn't. I guess I just need to talk about it. Among friends. I have no female ones and you can't talk to men about these things.

In the "other thread" is seem to remember at least one or two other FTM's mentioning that they had a similar experience, and I seem to remember that they too were reluctant to talk to other guys about this.

Forgive me for the generalization, but I'll never get the hangup that most guys seem to have about talking about their feelings. I have to say that is one of the more damaging aspects of living as a male in society.

[suzifrommd]

There is definitely objectification of both sexes.

I totally know what you mean about women being reduced to our looks. I'm having to get used to being treated as if I'm invisible in all sorts of social situations. And I'm far from ordinary looking - way taller and thinner than most women my age.

Objectification of women is much more visible than objectification of men, because women complain about it. Objectification of men is just as pernicious. We watch war movies and see scores of men gunned down by machine gun fire. We don't see them as people, simply as sort of toy soldiers.

So when a president tells us, "let's go invade some smaller country because we don't like their religion", the nation cheers him on, remembering those objectified men from our war movies and video games. Our legislature approves it by an 80-20 margin. It's only afterward when we learn the stories of our soldiers who came back maimed and about the family members of those who were killed that we wonder why we were so eager to play international bully.

Athletes (mostly males) are objectified. We've built a system where they do horrendous things to their bodies for our entertainment. We pay the 0.1% at the top ridiculous wages and required the other 99.9% to basically sacrifice the normality of their lives and the endurance of their bodies if they want a shot at that money. In many place status and popularity depend on being able to perform on an athletic field and the willingness to sacrifice body and time to achieve that performance.

Males are also financially objectified. If you don't or can't earn what society expects, you are less worthy.

Men are emotionally objectified. Men are allowed to display anger or grief, but are basically denied the full range of expression that women are permitted.

And men are violently objectified. Every living male has had, at some point, to defend his worthiness by fighting. My own father, a pacifist and the gentlest male I've ever known, encouraged my childhood male self to fight bullies when I was being picked on.

I've got to agree with FA. Being objectified sucks on both sides.

[Nero]

I remember when i was briefly taking classes living as a boy and somehow ended up in a class of only like 2 girls and 15+ boys. The girls dropped it pretty quick and They didn't have to be on their best behavior anymore and having never had male friends it was really a culture shock to me. The professor was a woman and they didn't like her teaching style... they didn't talk about why they didn't like it though. They just talked about ->-bleeped-<-ing her. constantly, when she was barely even out of earshot. I would take the long way to the bathrooms tonget away from them and that's all they'd talk about every break. One of the guys in that class would talk to me sometimes and whenever he would mention a female student he wouldn't say anything about who she was, just her ass. Did that so many times. I was always too afraid to call him out on it since i had really bad social anxiety and would just nod and go uh huh to people who talked to me, apparently they interpreted that as friendly so he never got that I didn't want to hear it. Good lord I got so tired of his ->-bleeped-<-. I still have a hard time believing that men think like this but being confronted with it was pretty awful.

Yes. I certainly got an earful the second I started passing as a guy. It's not just men though. Women also do this. See women as body parts. Everyone sees women this way.

To go back to what I said to Erin,

I guess that it's just that I'm in a lot of pain. I've transitioned years ago, but still dealing with all this. Trans women on this forum are really the only female friends I've ever had. So, I guess that somehow I'm thinking y'all will commiserate with what I'm saying. And when y'all don't and sound offended, I'm confused and don't know what I said to upset. I talk about growing up as a girl because it is what I know and it is different. And I believe it's responsible for a lot of the hang ups I have now. But when I do this, I'm not meaning to compare and contrast and exclude you all. But how else can I talk about this without talking about how it's different growing up female? Because this experience is what hurts now. And it's about growing up and living as female. It certainly doesn't mean that I'm trying to hurt or exclude trans women. You're the ones I'm coming to with this! The ones I'm confiding in. I don't feel this safe to even talk about this anywhere else. Not with men, not with trans men, not anywhere but here.

[sad panda]

@suzi Why not make a thread about how men are objectified tho? It's perfectly okay to also talk about that to heal from it too.

Yes. I certainly got an earful the second I started passing as a guy. It's not just men though. Women also do this. See women as body parts. Everyone sees women this way.

Yeah.. I was just surprised at how straightforward it was. Like they weren't even embarrassed about it. It seemed so nefarious just in how casually they were willing to act like that. I at least expect women to know there is a person beyond the body parts because they know that about themselves (usually :/)... men, sometimes I honestly have to wonder if many of them actually even believe that.

[Joanna Dark]

I remember when i was briefly taking classes living as a boy and somehow ended up in a class of only like 2 girls and 15+ boys. The girls dropped it pretty quick and They didn't have to be on their best behavior anymore and having never had male friends it was really a culture shock to me. The professor was a woman and they didn't like her teaching style... they didn't talk about why they didn't like it though. They just talked about ->-bleeped-<-ing her. constantly, when she was barely even out of earshot. I would take the long way to the bathrooms tonget away from them and that's all they'd talk about every break. One of the guys in that class would talk to me sometimes and whenever he would mention a female student he wouldn't say anything about who she was, just her ass. Did that so many times. I was always too afraid to call him out on it since i had really bad social anxiety and would just nod and go uh huh to people who talked to me, apparently they interpreted that as friendly so he never got that I didn't want to hear it. Good lord I got so tired of his ->-bleeped-<-. I still have a hard time believing that men think like this but being confronted with it was pretty awful.

I've had a very similar experience except it was at a drug and alcohol outpatient rehab center. The whole class was full of men (and me) and then this girl was put in the class. She immediately became the center of attention even though she clearly did not want to be and she was going through some emotional problems. But, she smiled and nodded and just sat there and let it happen. I think one of the guys asked for her number I don't know. But every time there was no women around they started talking about "I'd bang that bitch and blah, blah, blah her vagina blah, blah blah huge tits" I was so happy when I didn't have to go anymore. It was a real man's man drug and alcohol class. The teacher despised me. I started transitioning as soon as it was done.

[suzifrommd]

But every time there was no women around they started talking about "I'd bang that bitch and blah, blah, blah her vagina blah, blah blah huge tits"

I've seen this crudeness too. Some of this is bravado and posturing. A lot of these guys have girlfriends they actually care about. Unfortunately, a lot of them do have this attitude, and even more unfortunate is that there are a lot of women with low self esteem who put up with those guys.

[sad panda]

I've seen this crudeness too. Some of this is bravado and posturing. A lot of these guys have girlfriends they actually care about. Unfortunately, a lot of them do have this attitude, and even more unfortunate is that there are a lot of women with low self esteem who put up with those guys.

Yeah but how many of them have female friends they don't see as a potential source of sex and actually care about?

[ErinM]

FA, my heart breaks for you. I sincerely hope that you can find someone to talk to about this.

Even knowing that you dint mean to invalidate or offend me, it's still hard for me to read a lot if what you are saying.

A major struggle for me is not having grown up the right gender. That I will never experience life as a young woman.

Despite my ability to cope and the truths I've come to know, I still wish at times that I could experience what it is like to be an attractive young woman. That in some sick and twisted way I would have my womanhood validated by being objectified in that way.

I've list count of the number if times I've been crippled, crying myself to sleep in the middle of the day trying to get past the grieving of my "lost" childhood, adolescence and young adulthood.

That is why I can't help but feel invalidated and hurt when this comes up. I know that you don't mean to, but it feels like salt in a wound that I so desperately want to heal up.

[Nero]

Just to talk I guess. I didn't mean for this thread to turn into this. Really, I didn't. I guess I just need to talk about it. Among friends. I have no female ones and you can't talk to men about these things.

In the "other thread" is seem to remember at least one or two other FTM's mentioning that they had a similar experience, and I seem to remember that they too were reluctant to talk to other guys about this.

Forgive me for the generalization, but I'll never get the hangup that most guys seem to have about talking about their feelings. I have to say that is one of the more damaging aspects of living as a male in society.

Very true. This, what I'm dealing with - is a very awkward and unsettling conversation. Most cis women don't realize or don't want to acknowledge it. And they lack the perspective I have living as male. It just seems natural to them. The way of the world. Everyone believes in fairness and nobody wants to acknowledge or see this. That's why what I'm saying sounds so jarring to the ear. Everyone lives it, sees it everyday. But nobody, male or female, wants to admit it. But not acknowledging doesn't protect women from it. Trans women may not have grown up with it, but they inherit it. And it must be weird - going from a whole being to being a collection of parts. They probably notice it more than cis women who know no different. So, this has got to be jarring for trans women coming into this - especially the young and pretty.

[suzifrommd]

So, this has got to be jarring for trans women coming into this - especially the young and pretty.

Well, I can't say anything about being young or pretty. I'm rather plain and squarely middle aged.

But being invisible because I'm not attractive ticks me off. I was in a social situation last night where a select portion of the male attendees basically ignored me, even when I was sitting across the table.

But I love it when I meet the rare guy who finds me hot and unaccountably wants to know every little detail about me. I suppose the bad comes with the good.

When all is said and done, being ignored by people whose vision is clouded by my physical presence only serves to separate me from those whom I probably wouldn't want to do much with anyway.

[Beverly]

I guess that it's just that I'm in a lot of pain. I've transitioned years ago, but still dealing with all this.

Indeed. It is sh*t on both sides of the fence but for transitioners, in either direction, it is worse because we really feel it so personally. Adolesence is a such a difficult time for anyone but I think that for people like us it is so much worse.

Trans women on this forum are really the only female friends I've ever had. So, I guess that somehow I'm thinking y'all will commiserate with what I'm saying. And when y'all don't and sound offended, I'm confused and don't know what I said to upset.

I think we get upset because many of us had such an awful time too. You seemed to be portraying men as having a better run in life than women and I can see why because in some ways they do where money and power is concerned, but for anything else they are little more than cannon fodder. From my perspective I was taught that I was disposable and that women were precious and to be protected (from other men!!) at all costs. Women and children first. Protect the weak. Sacrifice yourself - you're a man aren't you?

So what your discussion here is showing is that growing up can be damaging. The gender merely selects the form of damage. Perhaps this would be a good point to redirect the discussion slightly?

I talk about growing up as a girl because it is what I know

And here in MTF land we talk about growing as boys for the same reason.

And I believe it's responsible for a lot of the hang ups I have now.

I differ at this point. I believe that the process of being socialised incorrectly is what damaged all of us. That stage of our lives is when many of our peers learn to bend to society's viewpoint and they begin to accommodate themselves to the pres-assigned gender roles. Some rebel but most do not. A tiny fraction - us - get damaged and upset by it.

You're the ones I'm coming to with this! The ones I'm confiding in. I don't feel this safe to even talk about this anywhere else. Not with men, not with trans men, not anywhere but here.

And I see no reason not to continue your discussion because I think that it has unearthed some useful perspectives and illuminated some aspects of life that might otherwise have been missed.

[sad panda]

In the "other thread" is seem to remember at least one or two other FTM's mentioning that they had a similar experience, and I seem to remember that they too were reluctant to talk to other guys about this.

Forgive me for the generalization, but I'll never get the hangup that most guys seem to have about talking about their feelings. I have to say that is one of the more damaging aspects of living as a male in society.


Very true. This, what I'm dealing with - is a very awkward and unsettling conversation. Most cis women don't realize or don't want to acknowledge it. And they lack the perspective I have living as male. It just seems natural to them. The way of the world. Everyone believes in fairness and nobody wants to acknowledge or see this. That's why what I'm saying sounds so jarring to the ear. Everyone lives it, sees it everyday. But nobody, male or female, wants to admit it. But not acknowledging doesn't protect women from it. Trans women may not have grown up with it, but they inherit it. And it must be weird - going from a whole being to being a collection of parts. They probably notice it more than cis women who know no different. So, this has got to be jarring for trans women coming into this - especially the young and pretty.

How did you first notice the difference? I mean living as a guy. I mean how did you first realize how much it was affecting you?

It's interesting to me bc for me it was different but not necessarily jarring. I knew it was going to be that way, I guess I just didn't care because I didn't believe I had any worth to anyone anyway or had never been given a sense of that. Or maybe i had, but it never got internalized, I don't know. :/

[Nero]

I guess what I'd say is it feels like being a plant. A decoration. That blooms for a short time. And then withers and is useless. I was only ever a young woman, but even the youngest of women know the threat of this. The expiration date feeling.

This is me. And this is Adriana Lima.







A bloom. A flower. A thing. Do any of us know or care what Adriana Lima (or any beautiful woman) is good at?  Other than being a great decoration? Sure, there may be a few rare individuals who do. But seriously? Any woman who's name is known is known because she's great decoration. (With the exception of Oprah, Hillary, and that Alaska girl (who still have their looks and weight held up for scrutiny more than anything).) 

Any man who's known is known for what he does. Not for being a pretty plant. Sure there are male models and the like, but the exception only proves the rule. Plant and woman should be synonymous. And sure, I know being a man sucks. But at least he is measured by his character. Plants don't have character.

[Sarah Louise]

At least you had the time of being a beautiful young woman.

I was small, skinny, and not good looking, frowned upon because I was male, frowned upon because I wasn't muscular, smart or good looking.

We all carry these crosses, it comes with being unhappy with who we were and how we were treated.

[sad panda]

I guess what I'd say is it feels like being a plant. A decoration. That blooms for a short time. And then withers and is useless. I was only ever a young woman, but even the youngest of women know the threat of this. The expiration date feeling.

This is me. And this is Adriana Lima.







A bloom. A flower. A thing. Do any of us know or care what Adriana Lima (or any beautiful woman) is good at?  Other than being a great decoration? Sure, there may be a few rare individuals who do. But seriously? Any woman who's name is known is known because she's great decoration. (With the exception of Oprah, Hillary, and that Alaska girl (who still have their looks and weight held up for scrutiny more than anything).) 

Any man who's known is known for what he does. Not for being a pretty plant. Sure there are male models and the like, but the exception only proves the rule. Plant and woman should be synonymous. And sure, I know being a man sucks. But at least he is measured by his character. Plants don't have character.

So, sorry if i'm being nosy here, but does it hurt more because it feels like you escaped it and you're sad for those who won't?

Or because a part of you still can't/didn't/couldn't escape it? Your expiration date.

[Nero]

At least you had the time of being a beautiful young woman.

Yes, but that's the point - being a plant. A decoration, when I wanted to be a human being. I am now - a fat, short, ugly human being. But a human being! Treated with respect. Not a plant. Not a thing. Not SEX. A living, breathing thing. I don't have to fight for respect or to have my words heard. I'm human. Horrible how one of the first thoughts I had after passing as a 12 year old male was - 'so this is what it's like to be human'.