{TRIGGERS} Being a woman...

[Inanna]

FA, I've been thinking for a while about how to respond.  I empathize so much, but I just don't know what words will help.

There is so much extreme wrongness in this world that it can drive a person mad.  Objectification of women.  Racism.  First world-third world disparities in standard of life.  LGBT people being executed in some countries, and family/religious rejection in this one.  The fact trans people, even in first world countries, rarely get access to hormones early enough to prevent the wrong puberty.  The fact the United States was based on the forced removal and genocide of one race and the enslavement of another.  Animal mistreatment, and the extinction of thousands of precious species per year from human activity.

At some point, there has to be some level of disconnect to preserve our sanity.  Humans weren't wired to fully sort out and resolve the emotions these injustices induce.  All we can do is try to heal and live in the present.  I know this doesn't help a lot, but it's all I can offer. *hugs*

[Tori]

This thread has had a profound impact on how I have viewed the world these last few days.

In a male dominated society, I admit objectification will tend to be an issue, since male attraction is so much about the visual. It is really amazing to experience both hormonal cocktails during one life.

Those of us who transition later often have less to worry about when it comes to looks. I will never be a pretty young thing. Frankly, I am relieved, as I have heard horror stories like yours, FA, hundreds of times. Being an actor in NYC introduced me to some stunning beauties (looks do sell) and just to hear some of their stories of what would happen to them walking from home to the train chilled me to the bone. Still, I am MTF, I envied even the worst parts of the female experience. I am older now.

What I do experience from time to time is the stink eye. People figure out I am trans and their face becomes a scowl. So, I too am judged for my looks by people who do not know me. I am inspired to work hard to blend in, but I do not wish to become too pretty (not that I really have to fear that being an issue). Unwanted attention can come in many forms.

Being trans spared me from being an alpha male, who treated women like meat. Sure, testosterone fueled my eyes in a way, but I was always interested in what made women tick and being seen as a straight male often prevented me from being part of the girl's club.

So yeah, FA, I think I am coming around and finally decoding what you are saying. Men DO have it much easier in some ways. For the first time in my life, there are places I will not walk through alone. Men in general are no longer as interested in what I think or have to say. Even online.

Women pay a price. A beauty tax. They are not as valued in general for their thoughts and work. It is tougher. Being mid transition adds to the tax. And yet, for us MTFs it is a price we are typically willing to pay.

Society may treat women in a specific and superficial way, but not all individuals do. I have garnered a surprising amount of respect from others simply by transitioning. Opportunities have sprung up. There is such thing as trans privelage.

Once damage has been done, it can be hard to let it go, but letting it go is healthy. If it is in the past, and it does not inform you as to better handling of a situation in the future, it is a damaging waste of time.

[sad panda]

Well, I think a lot of things went into it. Like I said in another thread, it's hard to to talk about gender stuff without acknowledging that women hold a marginalized status. Trans issues mesh with sexism issues. It's probably why trans women are demonized more. Because being female is still seen as having lesser status. I think if women were truly viewed as equal, trans women and effeminate men would not be so marginalized. Julia Serano put this way better than I ever could. Trans women are sensationalized and hypersexualized and I think this is an off shoot of how women in general are viewed. Being a woman trans or otherwise just seems like almost a synonym for sex. Cis men and trans men aren't reduced to sex. Sure, they are sometimes mildly sexualized in ads and we have the Chippendales, etc, but not the way women are.

I think a lot of the things I've talked about are probably offensive to women on a gut level, and human beings in general. And most men are not so heartless as to seriously view women as objects. I'm sure the idea is offensive to most men when spoken so plainly. But many men act this way without realizing it. It's expected and woven into our culture. So I get why the women were offended. No woman ever wants to hear stuff like that. But we do still live in a sexist world. And I hate to say this, but I really feel like women are not viewed as full human beings. At least not as fully as men are.  And I think it would be impossible for women or anyone growing up as a woman to not be affected by this. I mean, things are better for women now. But it's like race issues which are better than they were but - I don't think you can come into this world as part of a marginalized group and not be affected. Just like race, some clearly have it worse than others, but they're all affected by it.

Well I think the reason I said what I said before is because yeah, women are affected by it, but also most women don't have the same problems you do (can't even upload a picture of myself online, can't bear to see myself in a video etc.) which you said was a problem for you even before you transitioned and this really hit you. Part of that can't be just about being FAAB, even if that is what triggers it. Anyway I was surprised because I've talked to another FTM (one, not saying this happens often) who also said that before, that he didn't want people to see him, that his whole life he felt hideous and just was very uncomfortable with being judged on his appearance. Of course also with being sexualized. It was a specific and deep trigger to him. And I do think it was about being raised female, but also that it was a unique problem for him that was a mix of that and other things.

I just want to reiterate that, at least to me, you don't have to prove that the problem exists probably not to a lot of other people on this forum either, though I can't speak for them, but chances are if they transitioned and they pass, they have experienced and understand to some extent what people view them as. I really don't know though...

But, at the same time, like I said before, I feel like you're sort of lecturing. Do you want to discuss it or are you still trying to convince somebody that it happens at all? Cuz in my view you are preaching to the choir. I'm really sorry if I'm confused about what you meant, it's just that the way you write your posts always feels like you are trying to prove something to somebody and I don't totally get why, like do you think people don't believe you or don't understand? Idk. Though I also get that actually a lot of people are arguing about stuff in this thread, which seems weird too. Mmmh, no clue where I'm going with this, hah. :x

[Nero]

Well I think the reason I said what I said before is because yeah, women are affected by it, but also most women don't have the same problems you do (can't even upload a picture of myself online, can't bear to see myself in a video etc.) which you said was a problem for you even before you transitioned and this really hit you. Part of that can't be just about being FAAB, even if that is what triggers it. Anyway I was surprised because I've talked to another FTM (one, not saying this happens often) who also said that before, that he didn't want people to see him, that his whole life he felt hideous and just was very uncomfortable with being judged on his appearance. Of course also with being sexualized. It was a specific and deep trigger to him. And I do think it was about being raised female, but also that it was a unique problem for him that was a mix of that and other things.

I just want to reiterate that, at least to me, you don't have to prove that the problem exists probably not to a lot of other people on this forum either, though I can't speak for them, but chances are if they transitioned and they pass, they have experienced and understand to some extent what people view them as. I really don't know though...

But, at the same time, like I said before, I feel like you're sort of lecturing. Do you want to discuss it or are you still trying to convince somebody that it happens at all? Cuz in my view you are preaching to the choir. I'm really sorry if I'm confused about what you meant, it's just that the way you write your posts always feels like you are trying to prove something to somebody and I don't totally get why, like do you think people don't believe you or don't understand? Idk. Though I also get that actually a lot of people are arguing about stuff in this thread, which seems weird too. Mmmh, no clue where I'm going with this, hah. :x

Well, that part - I really don't know where that comes from. I think the picture part is somehow to do with being trans. And it all got twisted somehow. I know it's not normal though.

The lecturing - well I guess I don't feel believed. But I'm not really trying to lecture anyone, it sounds the same way with me ranting in my journal to no one. I guess I'm just upset about it. 

[sad panda]

Awww, ok I see what you mean. :c *hugs*

[Jessica Merriman]

This is for you FA 

You mean more here than you can believe!

[eli77]

And like I said, this isn't something anyone talks about. So it's not like women are just going to bring this up in conversation. And I doubt most cis women (except maybe some serious feminists) actively think about this at all. I didn't until now. It was just the way things are. But we don't need people talking about it as proof. The beauty and anti-aging industries, the cosmetic surgeons doing excellent business, the little girls with eating disorders, the billboards, Victoria's Secret, all the 40 year old men leaving their wives for the hot young secretaries - this is our proof that this is a real thing. It's everywhere. And women grow up feeling it.

I feel like an alien sometimes. I grew up with two feminists for parents. I went to an arts high school and a liberal arts university. This stuff is like... 1+1=2, from my perspective. It is the basic assumption upon which you have conversations. This ->-bleeped-<- isn't just a theory. It has so much data behind it that I don't know why people even argue on the topic anymore. It feels like over-the-top mainstream. I mean DOVE did a "real beauty" campaign for goodness sake. DOVE!

So these boards? Culture shock. Seriously. I generally avoid threads like these on principle because they just make me feel frustrated and weird.

Transitioning as an assigned male person to a perceived female person is like giving back a winning lottery ticket. If anyone ever needed proof of my intent, transitioning while perfectly aware of exactly how bad it was going to get is it. Or possibly proof of insanity? Who knows. Working to be seen as a potted plant. Obviously a brilliant life decision.

Dude, one of the first things my mum said to me was "you're going to be so beautiful." (Yes, my mum is awesome and accepting.) My mum who has literally written books on feminism... The programming runs so deep, I don't even know.

And in me too. My crazy waffling over getting a boob job alone would be proof of that. Why do I even care how big my tits are, nah? Gah. I dunno man, I think it's inside most trans women's heads too. That's why so many of us can't see it. Or maybe it's just me, I shouldn't generalize. But it's in me deep. I just turned 30. That was fun.

I think cis guys see it the most clearly. But most of them think it's the way it should be. They can see it clear from the outside. So perfectly clear. From the outside we are flesh.

[Evolving Beauty]

To have a VAGINA and NOT a penis, PERIOD!

[CaitlinH]

To have a VAGINA and NOT a penis, PERIOD!

That's ridiculous, quite surprised someone who is trans would reduce gender to someone's genitals.

[suzifrommd]

Dude, one of the first things my mum said to me was "you're going to be so beautiful." (Yes, my mum is awesome and accepting.) My mum who has literally written books on feminism... The programming runs so deep, I don't even know.

And in me too. My crazy waffling over getting a boob job alone would be proof of that.

After reading some of Julia Serrano's stuff, I've begun to see this all in a different way (and I DO consider myself a feminist, BTW).

There are two issues that feminists tend to confuse:
1. Women, for whatever reason, tend to seek and place importance on their own beauty.
2. Women are judged by their looks.

Yes, the second is a severe problem, as FA and others have pointed out. No, women should not be judged by looks any more than men should be judged by fighting ability, bravery, athletic prowess, earning potential, etc.

But I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with the first. The pursuit of beauty is frivolous, yes, but so is the pursuit of athletic prowess, level 126 on the latest video game, or even zillions more dollars than you can spend in your lifetime. I find decorating my body with clothes and jewelry that make me feel good and show my best side to the world boosts my confidence, and is FUN. There is something uniquely feminine about this. I didn't have this drive when I lived as a man.

I don't see anything non-feminist about a boob job. If having bigger breasts make you feel better, you should have bigger breasts. If feminists have a problem with us doing what makes us feel good they've crossed over the boundary between fighting for our rights and trying to control our behavior.

[ErinM]

Well, that part - I really don't know where that comes from. I think the picture part is somehow to do with being trans. And it all got twisted somehow. I know it's not normal though.

The lecturing - well I guess I don't feel believed. But I'm not really trying to lecture anyone, it sounds the same way with me ranting in my journal to no one. I guess I'm just upset about it. 

That I can understand. When multiple personal struggles overlap it can be difficult to sort it all out in your head.

For me, despite having various coping mechanism in place to accept my appearance due to NF, when it collides with my GD and the realities I face living as a woman it all becomes a painful mess. I often have found myself having to re-learn and re-invent coping mechanisms and thought process that have been accumulating since early childhood.

It has been a challenge for me to see your point of view. I think a lot of it is because it is hard to hear someone having gone through hell because of something that I've wanted since my earliest memory. It shines a light into some corners of my mind that I want to avoid.

It's all one big painful and often confusing mess. The reality is though that I know I need to look at that more closely to be able to move on.

[ErinM]

After reading some of Julia Serrano's stuff, I've begun to see this all in a different way (and I DO consider myself a feminist, BTW).

There are two issues that feminists tend to confuse:
1. Women, for whatever reason, tend to seek and place importance on their own beauty.
2. Women are judged by their looks.

Yes, the second is a severe problem, as FA and others have pointed out. No, women should not be judged by looks any more than men should be judged by fighting ability, bravery, athletic prowess, earning potential, etc.

But I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with the first. The pursuit of beauty is frivolous, yes, but so is the pursuit of athletic prowess, level 126 on the latest video game, or even zillions more dollars than you can spend in your lifetime. I find decorating my body with clothes and jewelry that make me feel good and show my best side to the world boosts my confidence, and is FUN. There is something uniquely feminine about this. I didn't have this drive when I lived as a man.

I don't see anything non-feminist about a boob job. If having bigger breasts make you feel better, you should have bigger breasts. If feminists have a problem with us doing what makes us feel good they've crossed over the boundary between fighting for our rights and trying to control our behavior.

The thing is that the first can easily turn into something damaging.

A women can enjoy clothing, makeup and jewelry and like you said there is nothing wrong with that, but what happens when she starts to believe that she needs to do all of that. What about when she starts to believe that she needs breast augmentation or any other cosmetic procedure just to feel like she has value? Where do you think this comes from?

The two issues you mention really aren't that separate when you look at it.

[Nero]

And like I said, this isn't something anyone talks about. So it's not like women are just going to bring this up in conversation. And I doubt most cis women (except maybe some serious feminists) actively think about this at all. I didn't until now. It was just the way things are. But we don't need people talking about it as proof. The beauty and anti-aging industries, the cosmetic surgeons doing excellent business, the little girls with eating disorders, the billboards, Victoria's Secret, all the 40 year old men leaving their wives for the hot young secretaries - this is our proof that this is a real thing. It's everywhere. And women grow up feeling it.

I feel like an alien sometimes. I grew up with two feminists for parents. I went to an arts high school and a liberal arts university. This stuff is like... 1+1=2, from my perspective. It is the basic assumption upon which you have conversations. This ->-bleeped-<- isn't just a theory. It has so much data behind it that I don't know why people even argue on the topic anymore. It feels like over-the-top mainstream. I mean DOVE did a "real beauty" campaign for goodness sake. DOVE!

So these boards? Culture shock. Seriously. I generally avoid threads like these on principle because they just make me feel frustrated and weird.

Transitioning as an assigned male person to a perceived female person is like giving back a winning lottery ticket. If anyone ever needed proof of my intent, transitioning while perfectly aware of exactly how bad it was going to get is it. Or possibly proof of insanity? Who knows. Working to be seen as a potted plant. Obviously a brilliant life decision.

Dude, one of the first things my mum said to me was "you're going to be so beautiful." (Yes, my mum is awesome and accepting.) My mum who has literally written books on feminism... The programming runs so deep, I don't even know.

And in me too. My crazy waffling over getting a boob job alone would be proof of that. Why do I even care how big my tits are, nah? Gah. I dunno man, I think it's inside most trans women's heads too. That's why so many of us can't see it. Or maybe it's just me, I shouldn't generalize. But it's in me deep. I just turned 30. That was fun.

I think cis guys see it the most clearly. But most of them think it's the way it should be. They can see it clear from the outside. So perfectly clear. From the outside we are flesh.

Thanks hon.
I think one reason I keep going on about this is that when I first read about this stuff - after transition; some of the hurt lifted. And talking about it, acknowledging it, helps. So I guess that's one reason I keep arguing about it. It hurts more when you don't realize this is happening - people living as women tend to internalize it. So the woman just feels bad for not winning a losing battle. For not being physically perfect.

And the whole thing has such shame around it - she's shamed if she's 'vain' and wears makeup, gets work done, etc. But also shamed if she doesn't. And even a natural process - getting older, takes on a kind of shame for women. Maybe it's scarier for young women though - I don't know. The time frame we're supposed to stay in from about 16-25, just grows shorter and shorter. I think as stupid as it sounds, part of it is the media bombardment. We mostly see women in the above age range, maybe a few older ones. But mostly really young, impossibly perfect ones everywhere. But real flesh is not perfect and airbrushed and forever 16. And even if other people don't really see women this way -Women think they do. So women who don't fit the increasingly narrow mold rarely see any representation of themselves. Even the most celebrated women in media like Madonna and Angelina Jolie aren't allowed to age gracefully without shaming. So most the older women who are shown are still airbrushed into oblivion.

I feel bad talking about this cause I fear giving the women here these awful messages. But when I first read about this phenomenon and that it's a real thing, some of the ingrained pain lifted.

[Beverly]

I feel bad talking about this cause I fear giving the women here these awful messages.

It is not YOU who is at fault - it is the media / beauty industry who can only sell their products by pushing the beauty myth. And it is spreading, as I said before, men are now being targeted too "There is more pressure on men from magazines with celebrities and male models to have the 'ideal' body image," http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-26935687

By talking about this stuff, by posting about it here, you can maybe increase the awareness of this problem amongst the younger transwomen who are probably the most likely to succumb to it.

[Nero]

That I can understand. When multiple personal struggles overlap it can be difficult to sort it all out in your head.

For me, despite having various coping mechanism in place to accept my appearance due to NF, when it collides with my GD and the realities I face living as a woman it all becomes a painful mess. I often have found myself having to re-learn and re-invent coping mechanisms and thought process that have been accumulating since early childhood.

It has been a challenge for me to see your point of view. I think a lot of it is because it is hard to hear someone having gone through hell because of something that I've wanted since my earliest memory. It shines a light into some corners of my mind that I want to avoid.

It's all one big painful and often confusing mess. The reality is though that I know I need to look at that more closely to be able to move on.

Well, I've noticed something about when trans women talk about male programming and I do the reverse. I heard a lot from trans women that really scared me before transition. Because it sounded like I was going to be bombarded with all that in a very literal way. But it didn't happen that way. I still get and feel a lot of the expectations. But not as brutally as it sounded from some of the ladies. And I think part of that is probably that much of this programming takes place as kids. Male programming and all that probably is very cutthroat and brutal for boys and very young men. So most of the expectations and feelings I'm getting are internally. Other than a few odd looks, I really haven't had them literally enforced, you know?

I think this is where the disconnect and disbelief has come in with me talking about this. It's something that seems a lot more casual and unspoken. Like something that's just normal. Like for instance, a lot of guys don't understand why their pretty, skinny girlfriend is always asking if she looks fat and feels like she must take hours in the bathroom before showing her face anywhere. And she doesn't understand that he's got to act a certain way to keep up his image. Or she may overhear him with his friends going on about some girl's ass. And not realize that he's got to join in or at least nod and make some comment. It's just not on for him to do or say anything else. So part of it may be just not growing up that way, so it's harder to see until you're there and faced with the same things. And on both sides, it's probably a lot more pronounced the younger you are. A lot of the younger women here seem to get what I'm saying. And that's probably because it's more pronounced for them.

And of course, so many things go into it and someone's experience of it. Culture, country, environment, age, even sexuality - there was a study awhile back that showed that heterosexual women and gay women are affected a little differently. And that gay men are affected differently than straight men. As far as body image stuff. (god I'm so bad about retrieving these things when I need them). If true, it would make sense since men tend to focus more on looks and tend to prefer youthful partners. So, people competing for men probably have a little bit different experience.

And when you throw being trans into it - I probably did experience it differently than cis women. And I was turned on by women, so when I hit puberty I was like 'woah seeing tits everywhere!' But then also having tits - well that probably messed with things. Because I was objectifying women in a way but also becoming one... (later, I got into men too).

And of course for trans women - how to differentiate what is dysphoria over male residuals and what is the whole beauty trap? In a world where cis women are never good enough... having to deal with fears of looking male and all that op top of it...

And Erin, it must also be very different for you growing up with NF. And I can see how transition would throw a monkey wrench into all that all over again. But you and many others here seem to have gotten over one hurdle I can't seem to - posting a picture. Now, I probably wouldn't post one anyway due to privacy. But I'm unable to anywhere. And the main reason is, I don't think I could bear to see my face with every post. Now this thing is probably not just growing up female. Obviously teen girls are posting selfies everywhere. So maybe it was being trans, or maybe I'm just really out there. 

[stephaniec]

I  post my picture because I like seeing myself in the real world with breasts. I've wanted to be female all my conscious life so every little bit helps.

[Beverly]

Well, I've noticed something about when trans women talk about male programming and I do the reverse. I heard a lot from trans women that really scared me before transition. Because it sounded like I was going to be bombarded with all that in a very literal way. But it didn't happen that way. I still get and feel a lot of the expectations. But not as brutally as it sounded from some of the ladies. And I think part of that is probably that much of this programming takes place as kids. Male programming and all that probably is very cutthroat and brutal for boys and very young men. So most of the expectations and feelings I'm getting are internally. Other than a few odd looks, I really haven't had them literally enforced, you know?

I can see where you are coming from on this and I think it contains a lot of truth. I think comparing trans-folk to cis-folk as far as childhood and puberty goes is probably not that reliable. I think that the disconnect between our brains and our bodies amplifies the social programming. As sure as heck we do not fit into our assigned roles (that is the basis of our problem after all) so it is not surprising that we all find the 'programming' so repellent.

I think this is where the disconnect and disbelief has come in with me talking about this. It's something that seems a lot more casual and unspoken. Like something that's just normal. Like for instance, a lot of guys don't understand why their pretty, skinny girlfriend is always asking if she looks fat and feels like she must take hours in the bathroom before showing her face anywhere. And she doesn't understand that he's got to act a certain way to keep up his image. Or she may overhear him with his friends going on about some girl's ass. And not realize that he's got to join in or at least nod and make some comment. It's just not on for him to do or say anything else. So part of it may be just not growing up that way,

Indeed. And for many, these may be the behaviours that they 'aspire' to. The behaviours that mark their transition from adolescence to adulthood. We know that youth requires role models to guide them. Most people never question what they are learning from their role-models, but for trans-folk it can be a horrific experience. I can certainly remember how it made me feel so false but, like you say, at that age you cannot get too far out of line so you mouth the platitudes and use the behaviours that you do not like or believe in because you so desperately need some form of acceptance. No wonder I was a 'hermit'  for part of my teenage years.

And of course for trans women - how to differentiate what is dysphoria over male residuals and what is the whole beauty trap? In a world where cis women are never good enough... having to deal with fears of looking male and all that op top of it...

I think age is a factor in this. Most of the trans-women I know are middle aged because like anyone else, I socialise with those near my own age. Myself and those I know like to look tidy and presentable, but we never intend to compete in the beauty stakes like 20-something women (cis or trans). So I suspect that this makes us a bit more immune to the depredations of the beauty industry. To me, make up and other stuff is a tool to be used to improve how I feel about me myself, nothing more. The industry can prate away about perfect bodies and ideal looks until they are blue in the face because I know I will never be perfect so they gain no traction with me.

However, no matter what I think about the socialisation that was forced on me, I will not accept any blame for it. I refused to indulge in as much of it as I could although I certainly had my share of acting like an assh*le towards women because I believed some of what I was told, but I did not know better. I tried to "man up" and be mega-blokey and I am sure that I made some girls and women feel bad but it made me fit my "assigned" social group. Even so my heart was not in it and I could not sustain it so as soon as I was old enough not to need approval I stopped acting like a typical young male. I do not accept blame for it because it was how I was meant to act according society and I could not resist the whole world. I lacked the moral strength and courage. Once into my 20s I was freer to act and express myself so the "man's man" focused on "manly" things like driving, getting a pilot's licence, being a businessman and so on.

I was a victim of my circumstances and I had little choice in those until I was old enough and educated enough to make my choices count.

My past is behind me. Nowadays I have the confidence to look the world in the eye, so I make up for my earlier blunders by helping those I can.

I cannot rewrite history, but I can write the future.

[Nero]

However, no matter what I think about the socialisation that was forced on me, I will not accept any blame for it. I refused to indulge in as much of it as I could although I certainly had my share of acting like an assh*le towards women because I believed some of what I was told, but I did not know better. I tried to "man up" and be mega-blokey and I am sure that I made some girls and women feel bad but it made me fit my "assigned" social group. Even so my heart was not in it and I could not sustain it so as soon as I was old enough not to need approval I stopped acting like a typical young male. I do not accept blame for it because it was how I was meant to act according society and I could not resist the whole world. I lacked the moral strength and courage. Once into my 20s I was freer to act and express myself so the "man's man" focused on "manly" things like driving, getting a pilot's licence, being a businessman and so on.

I was a victim of my circumstances and I had little choice in those until I was old enough and educated enough to make my choices count.

My past is behind me. Nowadays I have the confidence to look the world in the eye, so I make up for my earlier blunders by helping those I can.

I cannot rewrite history, but I can write the future.

I see what you're saying. And I might be reading it wrong, but it just occurred to me that maybe one of the issues that comes up talking about this is that somehow MAAB people may be taking these subjects as blaming. When there is none. I mean, we don't blame women or FAAB people for men being expected to act a certain way. Even though female preference has probably had some hand in the evolution of male culture. Women tend to prefer the most powerful male who's at the top of the pack. So men were jockeying for position to get the women. So, in a similar way men are of course wired to want the most fertile women for propagation of the species. Scientifically somehow beauty was a marker for health and of course she would need to still be young and fertile.

So, I don't know how this all came to be, but in a male dominated culture the focus is on how men view women. In a female dominated culture, it would probably be the other way around. Maybe it would be even more focused males' strength and prowess. Maybe strength contests would be like beauty contests and seen as degrading. Or maybe they would be expected to go around with their packages hanging out. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is it's just the way things ended up. And we really don't know how it ended up that way. Other than that it probably has something to do with men being stronger and built to conquer and women built to make the babies.

But I don't think men are to blame. Not like that. And certainly not individual men or people assigned male. I mean, okay maybe whichever men decided back in the day to subjugate women. But I doubt it happened just like that. Even people who make these ads and things are not seriously thinking, 'I want to degrade women and make them feel bad about themselves'. (at least I hope not!) It's just what sells.

And the locker room kind of talk thing - I started experiencing that kind of thing when I started passing. And mostly, it just has the feeling of something that's expected. And kind of like a bonding thing. And definitely the kind of thing that you just go along with. I even used to kind of engage in that kind of thing with guys as a woman. I was bi, so. I mean unless he's a wife beater or rapist or something, I don't think most men seriously mean it to hurt or degrade women. Though it may contribute to rape culture and less empathy for women. Because anytime someone is seen as an object...

But the vast majority of the comments and body policing I got came from women. And just the general culture. It's weird for me, because I know a lot of women have been seriously abused by men. But for me, it's more 'abused by culture' I guess. I mean, I got a few body policing comments from men. But it's mostly the general culture that hurt me. And not any men. You know?

[Beverly]

I see what you're saying. And I might be reading it wrong,
.....
But I don't think men are to blame. Not like that.

I am not defending "men". When I said "However, no matter what I think about the socialisation that was forced on me, I will not accept any blame for it" I meant ME personally. It was done to me and perhaps I thought I wanted it, but I was wrong and I learned that later when I had more sense. I accepted it through ignorance and lack of experience.

So, although I made a mistake in my early treatment of women, although I acted like a total jerk as a teenager, although I bought into a social meme that was utterly wrong for me, it is behind me now and I cannot change it. I am glad that I was bright enough to realise how wrong it was and that I never really hurt anyone, I was just an insensitive idiot up to the age of 20 or so. It is a matter of regret, but the past is the past I will not flog myself for mistakes made then because I did not know any better. I hope you can similarly let go of your past demons too...

[Nero]

I see what you're saying. And I might be reading it wrong,
.....
But I don't think men are to blame. Not like that.

I am not defending "men". When I said "However, no matter what I think about the socialisation that was forced on me, I will not accept any blame for it" I meant ME personally. It was done to me and perhaps I thought I wanted it, but I was wrong and I learned that later when I had more sense. I accepted it through ignorance and lack of experience.

So, although I made a mistake in my early treatment of women, although I acted like a total jerk as a teenager, although I bought into a social meme that was utterly wrong for me, it is behind me now and I cannot change it. I am glad that I was bright enough to realise how wrong it was and that I never really hurt anyone, I was just an insensitive idiot up to the age of 20 or so. It is a matter of regret, but the past is the past I will not flog myself for mistakes made then because I did not know any better. I hope you can similarly let go of your past demons too...

Oh sorry, I may have misunderstood. And just to be clear - when I said 'men' I wasn't meaning to call you or trans women men or anything. I just meant I thought you were saying you weren't going to apologize for you acted as someone socialized as MAAB. And I just know that's kind of sticky subject with some feminists trying to put blame on MAAB people. So, I just wanted to make it clear that that's not what I'm talking about at all. Sorry if I completely misunderstood.