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Transitioning is merely a choice

Started by melissa90299, July 18, 2007, 02:45:20 AM

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tinkerbell

Perhaps you have missed it, but there's a new thread I created which is intended for those of you who believe that transition is a choice. 

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,16870.0.html


I would love to hear your insights on this matter if it isn't too much to ask of course. 


tink :icon_chick:
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Jay

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:24:49 AM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"?  ???

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink :icon_chick:

Exactly! Good point Tink :)


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Rachael

not sure if this argument can be won... the choice camp and no choice camps will simply bicker till its locked :)


R :police:
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melissa90299

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 27, 2007, 09:21:49 AM
Quote from: Natalie Carole on July 26, 2007, 08:08:44 PM
Quote from: Yvonne on July 25, 2007, 03:17:07 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 24, 2007, 09:40:28 AM
Yes, of course transitioning is a choice.  For me it was a very simple two-way choice.  I could choose to transition, or I could choose to die.

Same with me.  Transition or die? 
That sounds very absolute and complete! Transition or die! As if. Thats a terrible way to think. There are always other options. Its stupid how people get caught up in something and think death is the only way out. Believe me if you can avoid death you should but to die because you cant transition is ridiculous and defeats the purpose of having life in the first place. Life is where we figure all this stuff out and make the most of it even if we are not happy. Death is where you get no second chances and experience nothing. I would rather something than nothing even if it was just pain. Like the Bhuddists say "All life is Dhuka!". Meaning all life is suffering. There are just different levels of suffering the further away from pleasure you are.
Gee, I don't know.  "Death is where you get no second chances and experience nothing."  That doesn't sound that bad compared to a living hell.  Like both C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien said, "There are things that are worse than dying."  It's interesting that you quote the Bhuddists since they pursue Nervana which is complete nothingness.  But then, it might be that you and I are looking at life from opposite ends of the road.  Perhaps some day you will change your mind.

Please, leave Budddhism out of this, it is not dogmatic and most Westereners, including myself, and I consider myself a novice Buddhist, have no concept of what Buddhism is all about. Nirvana is not 'complete nothingness' and life isn't complete Dukha.
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Lisbeth

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 30, 2007, 09:02:06 AM
Nirvana is not 'complete nothingness' and life isn't complete Dukha.
You are, of course, correct.  Nirvana is a state that we cannot comprehend unless we have achieved it.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Kate

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 30, 2007, 09:17:51 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on July 30, 2007, 09:02:06 AM
Nirvana is not 'complete nothingness' and life isn't complete Dukha.
You are, of course, correct.  Nirvana is a state that we cannot comprehend unless we have achieved it.

And even then, it's not something that can be "comprehended" or achieved.

It's more like realizing something that always was.

And, to tie that into this thread, it's the same with being female: the harder you TRY to realize it, the more you search for validation and "proof" and things you can hang your knowingness on, the further that knowingness flees from you.

Once you just stop running, and just Let Go... you see that it was just always there.

And THAT kind of truth is just something you can never escape from again. It's everything, it's unquestionable, it's YOU.

And THATS why transitioning wasn't a choice for me. And why my life just STOPPED suddenly unless I did it.

~Kate~

Posted on: July 30, 2007, 09:45:46 AM
Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM
PS: I wonder if all transgender people kill themselves when they couldn't transition and hormones were not available?  I have doubts about that. Do I think they were happy? No, but did they all choose to kill themselves because they couldn't transition and take hormones and have surgeries? I don't think so.

That's a GREAT point, and speaking for myself only...

I obviously made it through 42 years without transitioning or killing myself. One reason I avoided suicide was because I just never believed I COULD transition. I didn't even know about it (beyond Jerry Springer type info) for decades, and once I learned more I STILL didn't believe I could have a normal, female life. I was kinda just sitting around, hanging on to this shred of hope that somehow, someday a magic pill would be invented that WOULD work perfectly.

So somehow, not having the possibility to fix things (yet) kept me going. Sure, it was tragic that I was trapped as a guy, but I had no choice, ya know? Because I had no choice, I could live with doing that, trying to eek out a glimpses of a female life from within a male one as best I could... and waiting for that magic pill to be invented someday to save me.

But once I learned more about the transition process, and realized it COULD work... that a female life was an actual possibility... and this was the ONLY way I'd ever have it... there was just no way I could avoid trying. Once I knew I COULD transition, and it might work, I couldn't turn my back on that chance without basically committing emotional suicide.

Through age 42, I got by in saying, "Not Yet." But once I KNEW it was a real possibility, any more delay would have meant saying "No" to living as a female.

And while I could live with saying, "Not Yet"... I couldn't live with saying, "No."

~Kate~
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NatalieC

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 30, 2007, 09:17:51 AM
Quote from: melissa90299 on July 30, 2007, 09:02:06 AM
Nirvana is not 'complete nothingness' and life isn't complete Dukha.
You are, of course, correct.  Nirvana is a state that we cannot comprehend unless we have achieved it.
Nirvana is 'extinction of the self into the supreme being' by definition. If you are extinct then you cannot comprehend anything. You will never reach Nirvana and live to tell about it. Its a trap! That is the path to enlightenment. Dont kid yourself! To find freedom one must go around death. Not into it.
And all life is suffering. But it is not complete suffering- Yes that would be Hell.
Anyway I just dont like people talking about killing themselves. Thats all. I feel sorry that some people have such low self esteems when they cant be who they want to be or who they are. I cant stand all the male stereotypes that have been placed on me since birth. And it takes lifetimes to erase them from your ego and personality. But as a community we have each other for support so transition should be a whole lot quicker and easier as a result. Death for me is not an option it is complete in that it would be a miserable failure of me to go that way. I will avoid it at all costs to be the woman I know I am. I will try not to hurt anyone else if I can though. But get if you get in my watch out! I feel I have a right to be true to myself.
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Hypatia

Quote from: Kate on July 30, 2007, 10:13:13 AM
I obviously made it through 42 years without transitioning or killing myself. One reason I avoided suicide was because I just never believed I COULD transition. I didn't even know about it (beyond Jerry Springer type info) for decades, and once I learned more I STILL didn't believe I could have a normal, female life.
That's exactly how it happened with me (though I somehow hung on for over 45 years). I had known all along I should have been a woman, but had gotten into the habit of telling myself: Never gonna happen, it's impossible, just forget about it. Which somehow allowed me to manage the GID temporarily. Once the GID grew stronger and stronger, it pretty much pushed me into learning more about what was happening to me. My subconscious began sending me various signals, although as I started wearing more and more feminine things, I kept denying at first that I was doing it.

Even when I finally gave up denial and said to myself, "Yeah, I'm transgender all right," at first I had no idea of what to do about it. All I could do was acknowledge that this was my condition. I used the word "transgender" at first because the idea of being transsexual still kind of scared me. It took I don't know maybe a year after that before I realized the word "transgender" was pointless and I'm definitely transsexual, and yes I need to transition all the way, op and everything.

I didn't know about Jerry Springer because I don't watch TV, in fact I was not in contact with any queer community or any source of information about all this for many years, so I stayed ignorant and just told myself I want to be a woman although I can't. Thus I held it in suspended animation for all that time, through ignorance.

QuoteI was kinda just sitting around, hanging on to this shred of hope that somehow, someday a magic pill would be invented that WOULD work perfectly.
I used to have a fantasy there would be a machine where I go into it, close the door, and turn it on, and the female me would walk out.

QuoteSo somehow, not having the possibility to fix things (yet) kept me going. Sure, it was tragic that I was trapped as a guy, but I had no choice, ya know? Because I had no choice, I could live with doing that, trying to eek out a glimpses of a female life from within a male one as best I could... and waiting for that magic pill to be invented someday to save me.
This describes very well how I existed for all that time. I lived the inner life of a woman vicariously, I got involved in feminist causes which allowed me to hang around with women talking about women's points of view, since I felt that within me anyway. Everything I paid attention to for years was about women.

QuoteBut once I learned more about the transition process, and realized it COULD work... that a female life was an actual possibility... and this was the ONLY way I'd ever have it... there was just no way I could avoid trying. Once I knew I COULD transition, and it might work, I couldn't turn my back on that chance without basically committing emotional suicide.

Exactly. Once --seemingly by chance-- I heard a speaker give a definition of transgender and suddenly I knew what was going on in me. I found out that it had a name, it was a field of study, and there were communities for it. When I finally owned up to it, I began reading whatever I could find on the subject, and learned about transition. Once I had that knowledge, transition was simply a foregone conclusion.

The analogy is when the Communist regimes were all falling in the year 1989, I heard political scientists on NPR saying as long as people live under absolute totalitarian repression, they will not rebel because they think it's hopeless. But with glasnost the system eased up a little, people tasted a little freedom, and they demanded more... and soon they rose and tore the Berlin Wall down. It's an exact analogy for what I went through.

QuoteThrough age 42, I got by in saying, "Not Yet." But once I KNEW it was a real possibility, any more delay would have meant saying "No" to living as a female.

And while I could live with saying, "Not Yet"... I couldn't live with saying, "No."
That's a great way to put it! Very well said!
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
  •  

Elizabeth

Well? It's nice to see after only ten pages, this is all settled....laff. It seems the only thing settled is that a lot of people seem to know who is and who is not TS, and this should not be taken lightly. All these psychologists, shrinks, medical doctors, endocrinologists and a whole host of people have been looking for a way to definitively determine who is and who is not transsexual, when all they needed to do was come here. We don't need SOC anymore. Just send people here, within a few posts our resident experts can immediately tell you if you are transsexual or not. But I must tell you, they are very stingy with their letters. It seems only they are TS and a few elite others who see things just like them.

How they got this knowledge is still unknown. It must be divine or they were just born with it, not sure. None of them needed to go to college and get a degree in psychology or psychiatry either. Study transsexuals? Who needs it when one is divinely graced with knowledge. I for one feel very lucky to be here, because I know I am being told what is right and true about me, even though no one here really knows anything about me.

I do know this. There is nothing in this world that "all" of anyone does. There is no group of people in any category that all behave in the same way. So it's really nice to know how "all" transsexuals behave. We are 100% predictable and can be diagnosed right here. I swear, it's the only reason I come here. And I know they are selfless people too, because they ask nothing in return. Why they are not invested at all in this forum, yet are willing to dedicate so much time to diagnosing everyone. And the best part is that all these experts are very modest, you can tell because of their reputation. They don't like showing they care. It might look as if they are invested.

In any event, now that this is all settled, after only ten pages of posts. I think we can pretty much retire this thread and thank all of those who provided us with the "right" answers. I know I for one, am grateful.

Love always,
Elizabeth
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Steph

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 02, 2007, 06:57:54 AM
Well? It's nice to see after only ten pages, this is all settled....laff. It seems the only thing settled is that a lot of people seem to know who is and who is not TS, and this should not be taken lightly. All these psychologists, shrinks, medical doctors, endocrinologists and a whole host of people have been looking for a way to definitively determine who is and who is not transsexual, when all they needed to do was come here. We don't need SOC anymore. Just send people here, within a few posts our resident experts can immediately tell you if you are transsexual or not. But I must tell you, they are very stingy with their letters. It seems only they are TS and a few elite others who see things just like them.

<snip>...

I think that you are being a little disingenuous Elizabeth.  While this is, and will continue to be a hotly debated issue, no where has anyone professed to be an expert on this topic let alone presented any medical credentials.  As such I believe that it is important that we all take the words written as opinion and opinion only.

We must remember that one persons view of who or what constitutes a TS, whether they will, will not, must transition will always differ from what others hold true, and yes some hold these beliefs very close to their heart and staunchly defend them as their very being is based on these beliefs.

It is obvious that this topic will not produce a definitive answer to the question posed but it is truly delightful to read the many different views on the subject and I for one hope that it continues, and that you yourself will continue to add to the mix of ideas and beliefs presented.

Steph
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Hypatia

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 02, 2007, 06:57:54 AMour resident experts can immediately tell you if you are transsexual or not. But I must tell you, they are very stingy with their letters. It seems only they are TS and a few elite others who see things just like them.
Your sarcasm is well taken, and very much to the point--but seriously, in a transgender Yahoo group that I manage I have just gotten into a debate about "Harry Benjamin Syndrome." My objection to the HBS ideology is precisely what you said, a small group arbitrarily decides that they are the only real TS and everyone else is garbage. It's just soooo wrong in so many ways.

Here it just comes across as a sort of underlying attitude, but HBS has actually formulated it into an explicit ideology that is now being pushed aggressively in certain circles.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
  •  

Kate

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 02, 2007, 06:57:54 AM
Why they are not invested at all in this forum, yet are willing to dedicate so much time to diagnosing everyone. And the best part is that all these experts are very modest...

Members here need to be a bit careful. Remember that this forum is filled with people struggling desperately with very deep, core issues... the very things which define who we are. Remember that what people say and suggest is coloured and even motivated by these issues and and the insecurities which surround them. The very foundation people build their identities on so often gets threatened... and then we see all these I'M ONE AND YOU'RE NOT! defensive reactions.

I do think everyone here means well, but when flame wars (more like nasty tickle fights here, lol) about primaries, real women, true TSs, etc. get going... personally, I learn FAAAAR more about the poster than the people their diagnosing... and how badly GID messes with people's self-esteem... then I do about TSism itself.

~Kate~
  •  

Nero

Quote from: Kate on August 02, 2007, 10:27:09 AM
Quote from: Elizabeth on August 02, 2007, 06:57:54 AM
Why they are not invested at all in this forum, yet are willing to dedicate so much time to diagnosing everyone. And the best part is that all these experts are very modest...

Members here need to be a bit careful. Remember that this forum is filled with people struggling desperately with very deep, core issues... the very things which define who we are. Remember that what people say and suggest is coloured and even motivated by these issues and and the insecurities which surround them. The very foundation people build their identities on so often gets threatened... and then we see all these I'M ONE AND YOU'RE NOT! defensive reactions.

I do think everyone here means well, but when flame wars (more like nasty tickle fights here, lol) about primaries, real women, true TSs, etc. get going... personally, I learn FAAAAR more about the poster than the people their diagnosing... and how badly GID messes with people's self-esteem... then I do about TSism itself.

~Kate~

I don't think the members here do it to feel superior or put anyone down though it comes off that way.
I think it's similar to the same divisions in all minority communities. The African-American community for example has many such divisions. 'Ghetto' vs 'Uncle Tom', dark skin vs light, etc
I've heard the same vehemence from some blacks against other blacks that we experience here.
The ones who 'act white' are ashamed of the 'ghetto' ones. The 'ghetto' ones accuse the 'white acting' ones of selling out to the white man - commonly known as the 'Uncle Tom' phenomenon. Etc, etc, etc

I think it's just a natural phenomenon with minority groups who are marginalized, dehumanized, and demonized by the majority. It touches a raw nerve and then they care very much about the behaviours, lives, of others in their group.
They need to separate themselves from ones who aren't like them but are perceived to be by society.
It's to be expected.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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asiangurliee

I don't think anyone is mean spirited on here, but let's be honest, there is a hierarchy in any community, *any* community.
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Rachael

communitys cannot exist without leaders and a leadership, people want to know what to do....


and nero: groups also self segregate. in terms of service provision, religious worship sites, personal safety in numbers and other needs, they locate in groups as its all society is. lots of interlocking groups.
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Nero

Quote from: Rachael on August 02, 2007, 01:09:33 PM
communitys cannot exist without leaders and a leadership, people want to know what to do....


and nero: groups also self segregate. in terms of service provision, religious worship sites, personal safety in numbers and other needs, they locate in groups as its all society is. lots of interlocking groups.
true
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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asiangurliee

Quote from: Rachael on August 02, 2007, 01:09:33 PM
communitys cannot exist without leaders and a leadership, people want to know what to do....


and nero: groups also self segregate. in terms of service provision, religious worship sites, personal safety in numbers and other needs, they locate in groups as its all society is. lots of interlocking groups.


Hierarchy is not about having leaders, its about saying if you do this or that , or if you are this or that, if you have this or have that, you are more socially acceptable in this community or that community.   
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Rachael

Quote from: asiangurliee on August 02, 2007, 02:50:04 PM


Hierarchy is not about having leaders, its about saying if you do this or that , or if you are this or that, if you have this or have that, you are more socially acceptable in this community or that community.   

er? since when?
QuoteA hierarchy (in Greek: Ἱεραρχία, derived from ἱερός — hieros, 'sacred', and ἄρχω — arkho, 'rule') is a system of ranking and organizing things or people, where each element of the system (except for the top element) is subordinate to a single other element.
hierarchy is system of rank... thus involving leaders, and power systems, not how acceptable something is.
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Maud

Quote from: Rachael on August 02, 2007, 01:09:33 PMcommunitys cannot exist without leaders and a leadership, people want to know what to do....

That is untrue.
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Rachael

communism is un sustainable at a community-national level. human nature is greedy.

R :police:
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