Going Stealth

[Buffy]

Men are taken at face value, Women by the value of their face.

Buffy

[Fae]

My Life Span professor gave me this textbook by Dr. Hilary M. Lips on the psychology of women.  There is a wonderful quote in it that really applies to the way we have been sucked in by society's stereotypes. 

"[Women] are often stereotyped in ways that imply incompetence, trained from girlhood to accept subservient roles, taught that their worth depends on such qualities as beauty and fertility, and victimized by discrimination in the realm of employment."

So much of our obsession is with beauty and fertility!  We continually beat ourselves up for not being able to give birth, and spend huge amounts of money and emotional energy trying to look like models.  Maybe somebody else is controlling our minds.

We should break those stereotypes, and as a feminist I'm all for supporting the empowerment of women everywhere, including transwomen.  One way to do that is to let people know that I'm not an incompetent woman.  My worth is so much more that my beauty and fertility (or lack thereof??). Not being able to give birth is something we'll never be able to change, so I don't focus on it.  Does it make me sad?  Of course, but I try not to let it get me down. 

As for looking like a model, I can only say that I'm an average woman.  After using Vaniqa for three months I still have a little bit of stubble that's somewhat noticeable during the day and my voice is still male (but I'm content with just softening it because I like my voice.  Changing it makes me feel fake - not myself - and there are many gg's with voices that fall below the female range, and they don't get questioned).  Looking like a model is not my goal - acceptance as a woman is, and I'm already obtaining that about 80% of the time.

Stealth isn't something I'm too worried about.  I'm comfortable with my past, but eventually (and sooner than I think) talking about my transition and ->-bleeped-<- will be pointless because people are already seeing me as a woman! 

Men are taken at face value, Women by the value of their face.

Buffy

Very true Buffy.  As women we have to prove ourselves each day because, this is still a "man's" world 

~Fae

[Melissa]

Men are taken at face value, Women by the value of their face.

Buffy

Very true Buffy.  As women we have to prove ourselves each day because, this is still a "man's" world 

Yep, it is a men's world and I'm fine with that.  As long as I'm able to be who I am, I'll willingly live under the same conditions as other women.  I'm sure this sounds very anti-feminist, but so far I haven't been discriminated as a woman in the workplace.  But then most of the managers (not the execs) are women, so I feel like I'm in a good company.  Also, I haven't really had to work any harder than I did before transition and so that hasn't been a problem.  Perhaps I'm just lucky for now and I'll sing a different tune later.   

[Fae]

Men are taken at face value, Women by the value of their face.

Buffy

Very true Buffy.  As women we have to prove ourselves each day because, this is still a "man's" world 

Yep, it is a men's world and I'm fine with that.  As long as I'm able to be who I am, I'll willingly live under the same conditions as other women.  I'm sure this sounds very anti-feminist, but so far I haven't been discriminated as a woman in the workplace.  But then most of the managers (not the execs) are women, so I feel like I'm in a good company.  Also, I haven't really had to work any harder than I did before transition and so that hasn't been a problem.  Perhaps I'm just lucky for now and I'll sing a different tune later.   

*nods* uh...yeah.  Gender discrimination and that "glass ceiling" still exist in the workplace.  I'm happy your managers are women though 

[mavieenrose]

Yep, it is a men's world and I'm fine with that.  As long as I'm able to be who I am, I'll willingly live under the same conditions as other women.

Melissa, I hope you don't think this attitude makes you somehow "more" female? In this men's world there is less attention and resources paid to women's health, more single mother's living destitute with children, more war, more violence against women, more women living in poverty, dehumanizing women...

You're fine with that? This is partly why feminists have issues with transwomen.

Gina M.

There are a lot of women who have fought hard, suffered and died to gain respect and rights similar to those of men, and of course in many countries of the world women are still suffering daily just for being women.

I'm not at all happy to live in a man's world and will keep fighting to try to obtain true eqality of opportunity for women and men.

I for one have experienced discrimination in the workplace and it is never a pleasant experience.

One clear example was 10 yrs ago, when I was working in a technical support team, logging calls and doing general admin work, but nothing technical. A position came up for someone to train as an engineer and I volunteered...  The response from the support manager was: "Ha ha, that's funny!  You'd certainly be much better looking than our other engineers and make the customer's happy, but you'd never be able to fix anything!"   (Of course all the engineers were men...)  That certainly reminded me I was in a man's world!

Well, I'm now the manager of a technical support team and am most certainly capable of fixing things...

MVER XXX

[Keira]

Mavie,

You live in france.
I've been there plenty of times,
I know a lot of french men and women who emigrated from there,
they all said the french culture is both mysoginist and classist.

If your a women who's not come from one of the top school, you
might as well put a cross on any high paying job!!!

That's what they said. Even men said that that what school you went
had most bearing on your future, no matter what you did after that
(of course, there are exceptions, but few and faw between).

So, for women in France, not so good.

Society in France is very static, that's part of the reason France's economy has so many problems, they are not using all their resources, men or women. If people don't have a possibility to move beyond their current status, there is no incentive for anything, thus stagnation.


Here, you wouldn't get that kind of answer MaVie, The Ecole Polytechnique here has 35% women (creeping up each year), while in France and the US, the numbers are a lot less.

[Keira]

Regina,

You did notice I was mostly talking from the french expat's point of view.

My sister's boyfriend of 5 years is french and I've been in close contact with hundreds of native frenchmen. There are 140000 french immigrants from France around Montreal. We're we've discussed these issues (class system and mysoginy) at length since they are a big reason why they left. All the women I've talked to said that they had it better here, ALL OF THEM from the lowly vendors to the university proffesors, they should know what they're talking about since they are the ones who lived in both places.

I doubt Sarcozy can change a thing, french culture needs an electroshock and everyone's loathe to administer it.

In general, the chance of career advancement for women in France is a lot worse than in the province of Quebec and the US, that's a pure fact.

[mavieenrose]

OK, I was hoping I could avoid replying, but it looks like I've got no choice...

Yes, French society is undoubtedly more macho than the UK.  Generally men here don't just want to open doors for you, it's a definite need, an intrinsic part of their male identity; they need to do it to feel comfortable.  And women have a lot of pressure to look good and conform to female stereotypes (from posters, TV, magazines, etc...), much more so than I ever remember was the case back in England.  For example, here dieting is a national sport and a yearly ritual (the pressure starts in early spring in the media) and any Frenchwoman worth her salt makes at least a little effort to lose some centimetres from her waist before hitting the beach in the summer...

I have to admit that I found this very difficult to accept when I arrived in France, but what's funny is that as the years have gone on I've got quite used to it and have to admit (yes, I'm feeling v v v un-feminist here!!) that I actually quite like it a lot of the time.  When I go back to the UK to visit family and friends, I'm actually quite shocked.  The men seem weak and the women don't seem to be really liberated, but just more and more like ersatz men. 

When I say I can't accept that it's a man's world, I actually mean that I want a society where there is true equality of opportunity for woman at work and when buying products and services, but I definitely don't want equality of the sexes.  In my opinion men and women don't need to be the same to respect each other and work together.

OK and now's the moment that I have to say (sorry to break the illusion...) that the workplace incident I referred to in my earlier post actually happened when I was still in the UK.  I haven't actually experienced any open discrimination against me at work here in France, and in fact a couple of years ago I was promoted to run the technical support department, which is traditionally quite a male environnement here.

France is evolving rapidly.  There's more and more awareness of all minorities and I think the future here looks bright, although there may still be a few difficult years ahead in the very near future.

If I love living and working in France, it's precisely because I can work and have a life as well.  France isn't quite as obsessed with putting work before all else as the anglo-saxon cultures, and ok it means the country's a bit poorer, but people don't really seem less happy.  It's a different model to the UK and the US, with different priorities, and I for one hope it always stays unique.

And finally...

... and I hope she kicks some male butt.

bises,
Gina M.

... well I certainly do my best Gina ! 

gros bisous
MVER XXX

[Melissa]

Yep, it is a men's world and I'm fine with that.  As long as I'm able to be who I am, I'll willingly live under the same conditions as other women.

Melissa, I hope you don't think this attitude makes you somehow "more" female? In this men's world there is less attention and resources paid to women's health, more single mother's living destitute with children, more war, more violence against women, more women living in poverty, dehumanizing women...

You're fine with that? This is partly why feminists have issues with transwomen.

Gina M.

More female?  Huh?  No, that's just my view on it.  Just because I'm not at the front lines fighting for women's rights doesn't mean I don't want women to have equal rights.  All I was saying was that I would rather be a female without male privilege and subjected to the same things as GGs than to be forced to live as a male and keep that privilege.

[Rachael]

havn't we floated off topic a wee bit?

[Jeannette]

In this men's world there is less attention and resources paid to women's health, more single mother's living destitute with children, more war, more violence against women, more women living in poverty, dehumanizing women...

Sad but true.

We protest all the social and legal pressures that leave women and girls thinking that perfectly normal bodily processes are shameful, evil, pornographic, or topics to only be spoken of in embarrassed whispers and euphemisms to the school nurse.
We protest the laws and customs that have led women into such ignorance and confusion about how their own bodies work.
We protest the social taboos and governmental laws that have made it difficult for knowledgable women and mothers to talk to young girls about their growing bodies, and their lives.
We protest the censorship of women's political, scientific and artistic ideas.
We PROTEST, dammit. And we're doing something about it.

Kuddos to Regina!

[melissa90299]

havn't we floated off topic a wee bit?

I will get us back on topic.

When I get back to my exercise routine at the woman's gym. I will be stealth in the locker room, sans attire.

Way kewl, eh?

[Rachael]

hehe, ultimate stealth. look mummy! no wang! *s->-bleeped-<-s* >


i guess things like that help, but only if like you mel, the rest is stealt worthy too

[Buffy]

But Buffy, why the comment, are you feeling valueless or unattractive or both? I'm sorry if that's so.

ciao,
Gina M.

Lol... Valueless, unattractive, absolutely not, I have a great life and have lived stealth for nearly 4 years now. The comment is that I now see life from the other side. I had the fortune (or misfortune) to recently be involved in an interviewing process. The guys on the team actually rated the women on their attractiveness, I was appaled at this and told them so, none of the men had been marked on their looks.

I doubt that any MTF who doesn't pass 100%, lives in stealth would have got past their sexist attitude.

Buffy