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Is this offensive to you?

Started by mangoslayer, May 30, 2013, 10:19:34 PM

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mangoslayer

I am transsexual without a physical intersex condition, but I consider my transsexualism to be an intersex condition. As in, my brain sex differs from my body's birth sex. And since it has been that way since the way I was born due to my fetal development, i personally consider it to be a type of intersex.
But i started thinking about how there are people who claim to be trans without dysphoria and that really bothers me that they are sort of hijacking my medical condition. I don't want to make any intersex people feel that way. Does my way of thinking offend you?
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Jamie D

Mangoslayer - I am of the opinion that some forms transgenderism may very well be a neurological intersex condition.  There are many conditions that can be described as "intersex."  Who is to say that transgenderism is not one of them?
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thursdayschild

I kind of this this type of thinking is a huge reason why a lot of intersex folks don't want to be associated with trans folks. There are some unique struggles. When I was presenting as more or less male for a while, trans guys would massively fetishize my junk and tell me how lucky I was to have it. But I never really felt particularly lucky. I've felt unsafe my whole childhood because of it and would often have peers and sometimes even adults "check" to see what I really was. They'd also sometimes assault me, too. Flash forward and suddenly I had trans male and trans masculine partners telling me how lucky this thing was that had always been in the way. I still don't peruse half of the folks I'd like to hook up with or date or even have serious relationships with because of it. I don't want to hear how special or lucky or whatever I am.

I don't even feel comfortable saying I'm intersex because I know it's a sensitive subject and I haven't been tested.... so when trans folks who are pretty sure they're dyadic come along saying they're interesex it can be a bit of a slap in the face. Especially since I often hope to get support from the trans folks in my life on this one, and when I hear trans folks say trans is a type of intersex it kind of makes me doubt I'll get good support from them.

I'm a bit of an oddball because I'm sure I'm trans. I can kind of assume I'm intersex but I don't know for sure since I specifically won't get tested.... whatever is going on hasn't caused me to keel over yet, so it's unlike to suddenly be an issue, especially considering how carefully I'm medically monitored. Aside from the prospect of an IS diagnosis making getting surgery and stuff more difficult, there's also the fact that I don't want science to be able to tell me if I'm trans or not. I know I'm trans. I don't need an IS diagnosis to tell me there are legit reasons for the way I feel. I think the fact I feel that way should be legit enough. I also don't want the reverse happening.... I don't want people telling me I'm trans because I'm intersex and if I only corrected that it'd be all better and I could go back to being a nice housewife or hunting lions in a loin cloth. (Okay, I'm trying to give everyone a chuckle but you get the picture.)

Also, what if there was a test you could take to see if you personally truely had a male brain and you got the result back and it said, "Negative- Totally Female" even though you're certain you're right. Then what? I highly doubt you're suddenly going to feel less male. Do you then have brain dysphoria? Do you then not get access to safer medically managed hormones or surgery even if you're desperate enough you start thinking DIY is the way to go? Like, I don't know.... I think there are potential hazards to asking science to explain things that we already know.
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Cindy

I think the issue is that intersex people defined by the karyotype have a different legal status for medical care in most places compared to transexuals without an intersex karyotype
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thursdayschild

Yeah, I plan to get surgery. So.... I'm kind of invested in being trans.

Else wise, suddenly it's "cosmetic".
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noeleena

Hi,

One reason i ran into issues with some trans people im different to them by default , it does not bother me as a person , those who accept me for who i am not wether im male female or intersexed, they dont care one bit as iv said many times im a member with in our groups of well over 1000 people men and women,

the fact is im female and im accepted as such, iv been given responcabliitys with in those groups and very public as a public relations person if they did not wont me there i would not be doing what i do  they would not wont me on thier = our commitees, and further more its not how i look or dont they know noeleena, for who i am  as a person , remember we all come with issue's and detail in our lives , we all so come with failings,  yet you know what we all so have attrbutes about our selfs what makes us what we are, how we get on with others and work along side by side,

yes im different yes im at odd's with how some see me , the thing is do they get to know me ,,,,, you ask them.
those who know me are the ones who will stand by me and step in to help when i need help or be there even when i dont ask, i have my friends who are friends because they wont to be,and the same for myself,

We are all different in our own ways what we and others need to do is look beyound our difference's get to know us and accept  yes we are different , and so what.......

...noeleena...
Hi. from New Zealand, Im a woman of difference & intersex who is living life to the full.   we have 3 grown up kids and 11 grand kid's 6 boy's & 5 girl's,
Jos and i are still friends and  is very happy with her new life with someone.
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nether

I am not offended by this at all. I have never deeply explored the real of intersex conditions until today.

I realized I have glands behind my nipples. I about >-bleeped-< a brick when I realized that not everyone has these and are particularly lacking in men. LIKE WHAT!!? Of course things are making more and more sense for me and I am so happy to finally be getting some answers.

Who cares if someone is offended. No label police here  :police: can tell you what you are or arent.

Maybe you are both or neither but you are you, hun.
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kelly_aus

And cindy said,  intersex conditions are usually defined by karotype testing. I could certainly understand how some people would find your views offensive..
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Jenna Stannis

Quote from: mangoslayer on May 30, 2013, 10:19:34 PM
I started thinking about how there are people who claim to be trans without dysphoria and that really bothers me that they are sort of hijacking my medical condition.

Do you think that people who, for example, identify as Australian Aboriginal but are not black and have no (or very distant) Aboriginal ancestry are hijacking Aboriginal culture? Do you think it would be offensive to say that such people have no right to make such a claim?

Specific to your point, how are dysphoria-free trans* people hijacking your "medical condition" if they are not suffering from dysphoria? That is, what medical condition are they hijacking exactly?
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JLT1

Well,

I would put them both under an umbrella of conditions related to sexual differentiation. However, I believe they are distinct conditions under that umbrella. MY argument for doing so is this:  Over 30% of male children born to mothers who took DES are MTFs.  Therefore, there is a cause for a person being transgendered and it is not because of some mental failing.  The exposure to DES did something to the brain (and possibly other systems in the body) which made that person realize there was something seriously wrong with the assigned gender.  Oddly enough, about the same percentage is intersexed.  Hmmmmm.....

However, those with genetically identifiable intersexed conditions may not feel the gender-mind mismatch.  They just know there is something wrong with their gentiles.  In some cases, they can be very similar to a person who is transgendered while in other cases, they are as dissimilar  as a cis-person.   It all depends on the person and the specific intersexed condition.  Many will face unique physical and mental challenges that neither cis nor trans persons face.  Those facts make a big difference.   

Due to that difference, some intersexed people will not like being lumped in with transgendered people while others could care less.  Intersex is a large and rather arbitrary categorization.  Some have chromosomal abnormalities while others do not.  That there is such a distinct casual difference between those two types of intersexed conditions also lends support to my argument that it all belongs under the sexual differentiation umbrella.  To me, to assist in the understanding of these conditions I would make three broad categories under the one sexual differentiation category: Chromosomal intersexed, non-chromosomal intersexed and transgendered.

In the end, we are what we are and we have to deal with it.  Labels are useful only when we want to put a group of "like" people together according to some criteria that at best has only limited relevance and at worse, no relevance at all.

Hugs,

Jen
To move forward is to leave behind that which has become dear. It is a call into the wild, into becoming someone currently unknown to us. For most, it is a call too frightening and too challenging to heed. For some, it is a call to be more than we were capable of being, both now and in the future.
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doubleshot

The divides between the IS and TG communities are primarily sociopolitical... 

It's convoluted and I probably couldn't do it justice discussing the roots and the modern position of the IS community at large.

Frankly, it's a lot more difficult these days (the last decade, really) what the IS community is and those that belong -- many variations, conditions, are being isolated some out of the sociopolitical side to bypass legal restrictions that may 'protect' intersex individuals and more specifically youth/babies along as well as the strong potential of a political undercurrent to the medical establishment's opinion on various issues, conditions, variations in the IS community.

But of my personal opinion... I wouldn't be offended per se.

I believe there's many parallels, an interconnection between the TG and IS communities, but the realities are we can be the best of allies where are issues meet and the worst of enemies where they divide... and that's largely due to the world outside.

Those that are TG and IS represent only a small portion of the IS community, the IS community is also overwhelmingly hetenormative and cis aligned -- truthfully, a large portion of the community would be offended by it -- but get annoyed at anyone that removes the comforts and privileges of passing or being on the downlow as much as they can.

They aren't too fond of me but then again, most people aren't. So that's nothing special.

Where I might have some issues...

There are TG IS people, of course, but the real concern here is that your identity of being intersex would primarily a social identification, now there's enough evidence that we can suggest a deeper connection through the potential of male/female brain differences and bodily chemistry, however it would still put you in another category to the rest of us.. unless this causes more significant changes than what we recognize as being TG.

The concern would be that someone that is TG and IS.. they likely will have more specific medical needs dependent upon their variation that may be undermined by your identity as such.

As a whole IS people are only a small fraction of the population, TG IS people are only a small fraction of the IS population and medical research as a whole is significantly behind where it should be....

though the same could be said of the TG community too, so if there's any researchers examining the health and other concerns of IS TG people... they would be losing out if more TG people are identifying as being IS too.

And of course, it would affect the IS community as a whole... as well as the TG community as a whole.

And of course, there are the convoluted sociopolitical issues too.... let's face it, a fair portion of the TG communities doesn't necessarily want to be associated with the IS communities anymore than the large portion of the IS communities doesn't want to be associated with the TG communities. 

They both have their stigmas in the world outside and the potential for greater abuses, bigotry...   for a while, even the queer communities didn't want to deal with the IS communities (again, likewise) because the minor support that validates reparative or conversion therapy. 

And actually for many queer and trans IS people that has been used an excuse - that you're not actually trans/queer, it's a symptom of your condition -- to which even lgbt friendly groups might look the other way or throw your under the bus, because what if it is?

Of course, they did the same thing with trans groups, mental health, other minorities and heck they're still passing the buck with the inactive 'it gets better' campaign when it comes to lgbtiq* youth.

Where we are now both in research, legal and social politics... it would be better if you keep it to TG and maybe use IG as a connection line to the social/psychological aspects and experiences.

But if you need numbers for your protests or want to join ours... communicating our connection through our social experiences, the places where our politics intersect particularly where we become more aligned in the us vs them, we're closer to one another than we are to those on the outside when it comes to so many things, in so many aspects of society and our mutual experiences, particularly in the way of health, treatment and research, and in the way of our conditions/variations are treated by those on the outside...

showing your connection on these other levels is brings down the level of offense which for most IS is more a defense and insecurity for a multitude of issues, from the outside BS to the internalized phobias.

Though if you want to present the line charts are good - there's more than enough out there pointing out the differences between everything -  think and explore how the IS and TG communities are connected, don't spell out the connection just present them side by side.

That's how you might avoid the hijacking claim, it's difficult with the rabid rad breed of any group, as I'm sure you already know...

simplified, socially, our experiences as a whole are close enough that in many ways TG and IS are interchangeable ... 'course our inner politics and definition, separations, variations of being in both groups, do make things difficult.. never so simple.

But eh, it's easy to be 'offended' at anything -- still, if we remove the tags from our groups, reading/listening to the experiences of one another, again, mostly the way we make our way through the world... it's difficult to separate the two - to clearly point out the which is which, who is who.

though I'm talking in circles...  there are divides too. The largest complaint one would hear out of the IS community, and unfortunately mostly from crazed, vocal, bigots... also, unfortunately with a bit of truth is the fear that some TG people claim being IS to circumvent the prejudice by believing that being IS will justify being TG -- however, the realities are we're not very well understood, and often only used as a greater excuse to stigmatize both communities... and sometimes with legal incentive - IS variations are still seen as abnormalities rather than variations by most of the medical establishment - freaks of nature in need of correcting - the movement against surgeries on infants has progressed (light years beyond what we would have believed a few years ago) but it still has years to go to really gain a fuller understanding or support  -- however for the rest of us, inclusive of TG, it's questionable how much further and fast that support and understanding will extend to the rest of us... we're a bit more invisible and our communities are still in their infancy -- most people only understand us as concepts and theories, and we're each piggybacking on other communities to move forward...

after typing all... with a sigh of exhaustion, I'll say no I don't really care... but we both know it's more complicated than that when it comes to everything else. We're just not there yet to say it doesn't matter... if it's not the public at large, it's all the bloody forms everywhere else.
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genderhell

Quote from: mangoslayer on May 30, 2013, 10:19:34 PM
Does my way of thinking offend you?

I m not offended, just see all this self-identification as pointless as somehow the DSM does not reflect personal experiences. Until it recognizes the different types of trans conditions/treatments, then there needs to be discussion about that. It is harmful to assume that all IS/GD/trans people are the same.

My GD is 99% lessened. However, prior, it would best be characterized as having my original personality "shut off", and having only "raw gender dysphoria" of the personality trying to be "free".

- This should be in the DSM so trans doctors won't say, "You are not like the others ... ". Doctors expect MTF to present as female, whereas I was overcome by GD and reduced to being a person with a severely impaired personality and eventually becoming psychotic. Untreated, severe GD probably leads to trans people becoming sociopaths, and the anger/rage of being in the wrong body might make someone a murderer.  There is a deep anger/rage with untreated GD.

-Also, a psychologist my parents took me to when I was seventeen suggested I was trans, but never reached a conclusion, and perhaps if the DSM actually said, "Hey, some of these trans people can be 'zombie-like', and not understand what is happening to them, then that doctor could of said something to my parents and me. That would of saved me a ton of suffering.  >:(

- The policy of this site to nay-say self-medicators when the trans doctors don't even know the different types of trans people, and how to treat them - always bugs me.
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KayT

Well I have to say, I wrote out a well considered reply to the question and I have lost it again through this website's operation, where I am finding this website most difficult to use as if life wasn't difficult enough already.
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