Do you think people are honest in the passing threads? And do you see a problem?

[Carrie Liz]

Copying this post back here, since it was moved to a different thread, but was really 90% meant as a reply to this one:

"[What I see in this debate] is really just a continuing prevailing cultural problem, where girls are constantly judging their own self-worth on whether others think they're pretty or not. And that problem spills over into these vanity threads. Again, why are we not having these same issues with the FtM "Do I Pass?" threads? Doesn't that tell you something there? Maybe the MtF community, and females in general, just need to learn more that there's more to life and more to their self-worth than being pretty. That is really what we should be focusing on here. Why is it that when a girl whines about her problems, one of the first things that always comes up is that she feels "ugly?"

Come on, girls, grow some self-esteem for God's sake! Are we seriously going to close down a thread just because we're so emotionally fragile that a simple negative experience with our appearance is enough to make us question our very worth as human beings?

Maybe we need a "fight the beauty industry, patriarchal culture, and its objectifying standards of feminine worth" thread. Or maybe a "You Did Fabulously, Darling!" thread where people celebrate their triumphs and accomplishments that have nothing to do with beauty or passability.

We focus way too damned much on our appearance. Just saying.

My inner feminist is seriously screaming out in frustration at all of this constant drama [over easily-hurt feelings in the MtF section.]"

[Vicki]

I would take that with a grain of salt though... it's hard to tell if someone passes just from pictures. They don't give the same impression as real life.

Ehh, I decided to take that post down after thinking about it. However, I guess I should elaborate a bit more since I was quoted before I could take it down, haha.

I realize that a picture is nothing like an actual person in real life, I've study animation intensively and know the nuisances that can not be depicted by a still picture. I realize that sounds incredibly odd, but when you animate things, you watch very closely as to how things move in real life and translate that to paper, or whatever you are working on. I'm not naive, I didn't take the thread at face value, or anything like that. What it did for me was give me that slight bit of hope, and maybe that is really all I need to take the plunge from "questioning" to "on HRT". Who knows, maybe it was a mistake for me to get a sense of hope by that thread, but at the end of the day it helped push me the rest of the way.

[TerriT]

If we're being honest, it's sisters who don't pass yet you see they carry an inflated sense of their passability expressed in their tacky dressing outside in the cis world. Their photos speak for themselves. And where is this inflated ego coming from? (maybe here?)

Why it bothers me. Because in the real world, people tend to remember the negatives. These negatives fuel prejudice in peoples minds. There's a lot of prejudice against the trans community.

It directly EFFECTS ME.

This is what I think everyone thinks about me all the time.

[Evelyn K]

This is what I think everyone thinks about me all the time.

You are certainly not one of the offenders. 

[Kara Jayde]

Asking about ones physical appearance does not automatically suggest that their world revolves around it. I am respected in my field, have multiple creative outlets, and absolutely love myself and my work immensely. Having people constantly bemoan the fact that I also own mirrors and would like to look good in them is frustrating to the point of ridiculousness. My appearance doesn't define me, sure, but it does add to my definition. Maybe this is because I am a materialist, so don't really buy into the whole magical pixie spirit currently trapped in a vehicle mentality that spiritual people adhere to, but I care how I look as a woman, and I don't think I should be made to feel vain, selfish, or egotistical for it. I think that the reason why men don't care as much isn't necessarily a gender 'construct' used to make women feel like objects and men treat them as that, I think deep down there is a biological mindset difference, in which women want to be valued for their appearance, not necessarily exclusively, but partly. Even in denial, as a male, I was very different in how I valued my appearance over my friends, and it was always pretty obvious, but just ignored. 

I know it's tangential, but it's odd how often you hear the 'appearance is so superficial' thing on here. Is it? If it's so irrelevant then why do we have dysphoria? 

[sad panda]

If you think I post my worst pictures here... Ha! I post the 1 in 100 that I actually like. I know I am not the only one.

Yeah.. I could post before & afters that look completely backwards, or look about the same, or look like incredible progress. I was even going to do it to make my point, but I don't actually have the self esteem to show a bad pic of me, cause a bad pic can make me look far worse than I ever would in person...

[Chic]

Uhm... I think this quote might be an example of why that thread's sometimes bad. Some of the responses I see have to be exaggerations.

I mean, for someone who will never stand a chance at "passing", people should just compliment the actual good physical traits that said person has. Don't call them beautiful, don't tell them they'll pass and throw sand in their eyes, but make them feel good about something. This keeps their expectations realistic and reinforces their self-esteem.

The problem I mostly see is with people who're young, new to their transsexualism, that come and post their pictures in boy-mode. If there's anything remotely feminine about their face, they're automatically assured and reassured that they will pass. It's good to boost their self-esteem, but this is also going to push them towards transition with certain expectations... and nobody, I mean nobody, can say for sure that those expectations will be met. How is that person going to feel once he/she realises that it's not that easy, that the responses he/she got in this board differ from people's reactions in real life? What if years into transition, they end up regretting it because they simply don't like how they ended up looking like? That's the real problem.

Saying nice things is good, but people with low self-esteem are more prone to be affected and influenced by what you have to say, they're in a vulnerable position. So yes, be kind, but don't raise false hopes on people. That's the way I feel about it, at least.

That's not entirely true in some cases. I don't think I need hormones to pass in pictures. My face already has a feminine enough glow that people actually deny that I'm transgender, and many of those people just barely know the basics of it. It's not ridiculous to say that someone who is young and has feminine features will pass as a female, because the truth of the matter is that it's rare for someone to be young and have good features to not pass. You can't compare it to older transitioners. I've seen just as many barely passable people as bombshells, and I've seen TONS of the worst and best results and examples. In my experience, if there are feminine-looking transgirls that are 20 and below and can't pass with hormones alone, nevermind without being all dolled up, I haven't seen them. Not a single one. I'm sure there are some, however.

We must also realize that the percentage of highly passable transgirls is higher than we may perceive due to the simple fact that many of those who have achieved that feat are likely to just fit in as cis girls in stealth mode. Most of these people are young. It's unrealistic to say that hormones won't work magic at that age, because it's been shown that more effects, all at a more dramatic result and pace, take place the younger the individual is. Find someone who transitioned at 12 and can't pass. It's not THAT much different than one who passes at 16 or 18, compared to people over 20, 30, 40, etc.

[stephaniec]

Sheesh it's hard reading your posts. I don't know if this is intentional, but your coming off as quite arrogant and elitist.

ditto

[Ltl89]

Whether they are helpful or not, I don't see why they are a problem.  I'm an example of someone who was told they pass and everything, yet I got called a ->-bleeped-<- once in real life after that.  Do I blame anyone here?  Why should I?  People have a perception and not everyone will see things the same way.  Just because someone sees something different or disagrees doesn't make one a liar.  I think there are a lot of assumptions being made.  You can't know what everyone thinks and not everyone will think like you.  It's as simple as that.

I will say on a personal note, those threads helped me.  They made me see that a lot of people don't think as poorly of me as myself.  That I'm my worst enemy in many ways.  Seriously, I look at myself and see a beast.  I want to cry and just hurt myself.  To know that others see something different gives me some hope and helps me cope.  And you know, I'm sure these threads, while overly positive at times, have helped other people see what they've been missing.

I think erasing these threads is going overboard and missing the fact that everything in life has pros as well as cons.

[Chic]

ditto

Sheesh it's hard reading your posts. I don't know if this is intentional, but your coming off as quite arrogant and elitist.

If I come off that way, I certainly don't mean to. I deal with my own insecurities from time to time. I don't intend to represent the younger trans generation so much as convey what I've seen. I have quite a few trans friends under 20 and so seeing their transitions as compared to older transitioners does show quite a bit of a chasm of difference there in terms of how physically passable one is. This doesn't mean that older transitioners can't pass; in fact, most of the passable ones I've seen are older than 20. And most anyone can pass.

Most of the problems I've dealt with in my life have occurred in a short time. I'm still going through hormonal changes and it's like I'm PMS'ing. Teenage arrogance isn't something to be surprised about, but in no way is it my intention to appear egocentric here. I've dealt with a massive bullying problem from almost exclusively men, and one of the fruits that I intend to reap from transitioning (not one of the reasons, which are much less shallow. In fact, I can't bear to live with myself as a male because of societal expectations and personal discomfort, and so I must transition to female) is to hopefully be model status so I can prove all those who said I'd never achieve my dreams wrong. All those who bullied me and called me '->-bleeped-<-got' and 'homo'. All those disgusting, worthless swine who purposely referred to me with male pronouns to intimidate me and make me distraught, and suddenly I'm a more attractive female than they'll ever be capable of dating. I want them to know they never won over me. Like I said, this isn't my reason for transitioning, but the way people have treated me because of my gender has given me a sense of arrogance in that I'll be more than just a passable Transgirl.

I've made it clear in other threads that my true reason for transitioning is to feel comfortable and happy in life.

Like I said in this explanation:




As far back as I can remember, I've always presented online as female. It's not like I suddenly came to this conclusion years down the line. As soon as I figured out what puberty was, I knew that I wasn't supposed to be male. So having to hide this without the ability to do that I want as an adult, unable to look up the resources I could because I was too young at the time, repressed me. I didn't know that I could transition to female until around 2009-2010, and I didn't know it was achievable to such results until 2013. Only when I joined Susan's did I know that it was achievable for myself personally, and this wave of happiness is still lasting. The girlmode pics I've posted are feeding that arrogance, and surely it is only temporary, my ecstatic nature is taking hold of my reasoning and I apologize for that.

[Tori]

Very few teens who transition are able to do so without their parent's consent.

Imagine what having parental guidance through transition at such a young age does to one's self image.

I promise, self worth comes before beauty in many people.

Not everyone is so fortunate.

[TerriT]

You are certainly not one of the offenders. 

But I do feel that way. That if somebody says something nice it is just that they're being nice. Maybe I'm just so used to being humiliated and beat down. I don't feel like I pass at all, so I try not to focus on that so much so much and I don't really participate in these threads.

I read an article a long time ago about what passing means. The authors point was that there is passing in the sense of looking appropriate within the context of the trans community, that we can all freely and easily pass in. And there is passing in the sense of the rest of the world and being read female 100%, which is a much higher standard to achieve. Her feeling was that her friends would often use the term passing to just mean "your make up looks good", "your outfit is nice" etc. It became a sort of catch all word. I can't remember how it concluded, but it has stuck with me for a long time. So now I tend to only view myself in my ability to be accepted into the trans world and that the idea that I could ever pass outside of it as an impossible goal.

[Zumbagirl]

Well first off, I have the advantage of having years of living in my role. So maybe I just see things differently. Let me just start by saying this: if by passing you just mean a static picture of someone, then sure why not? With the right lighting anyone can be handsome or drop dead gorgeous. On the other hand, if you mean the real world, I believe that we all get read, M2F as well as F2M, no one is immune. Why do I say this? Because we have a different life experience that we came from. It's what makes us different and in my mind makes us special.

We are in the end transgender people no matter how many surgeries and things we have done. It's not because we are not physically capable of blending, but our sum total life experience that brings us to that point in our lives and will mold how we act in the next minute.

Anyone who can claim to know if someone is passing or not from a photo is lying, and that's my own thoughts. Passing is a package deal and how we deal with this is how we integrated our total self into the new self that we try to create for ourselves. As soon as I started to realize this I knew I was not a conventional woman anymore. Oh sure I had all the right lady parts in all the right places, but so what? If I snapped a picture anyone would say girl. If I passed through an airport scanner people will say girl. But on close examination for a long enough period I believe anyone can figure me out simply because I am different from most women, but that's okay by me.

I took the path of embracing my differences from born women and reinvented myself into a new person when i transitioned who is physically female enough (for my own personal satisfaction and no one else's). So do I pass? From a picture sure I could cut it. I've had all the requisite surgeries done. Given time though anyone could figure me out.

I believe the same thing can also be said for F2Ms as well. Fooling people is something that happens at a Halloween party. Passing as a man means acting like a man and no F2M has that life experience, therefore they will get clocked just like M2F will. People I find are nice and won't say things to someone's face, because they might not be 100% certain but they have some odd suspicion that something is wrong,

That's just my own 2 cents. Thanks for bringing this subject up.

[Chic]

Another thing is, I am being barred from transitioning until a year and a half from now, so all I can do now is reassure myself that it will all be worth it, and a bubble of elitism is resulting from that. When I transition, that bubble will surely pop and I'll become more modest. But right now, I am youthful and I am being restricted from transitioning. That's a year and a half of my youth that I'll never get back, even if I am lucky that I'm still transitioning so early. It's different to be experiencing youth when you want to transition than looking back on it. It's not knowing that you could've made things different, it's the frustration that you so easily can and yet such a simple thing is holding me back and keeping me from it.

[Anatta]

Kia Ora,




Many happy people are not physically beautiful or passable and many physically beautiful & passable people are not mentally happy...

Que sera sera

Metta Anatta

[Mermaid]

That's not entirely true in some cases. I don't think I need hormones to pass in pictures. My face already has a feminine enough glow that people actually deny that I'm transgender, and many of those people just barely know the basics of it. It's not ridiculous to say that someone who is young and has feminine features will pass as a female, because the truth of the matter is that it's rare for someone to be young and have good features to not pass. You can't compare it to older transitioners. I've seen just as many barely passable people as bombshells, and I've seen TONS of the worst and best results and examples.

Uhm... I don't want to sound like a bitch but your pictures are clearly edited. I don't know much about photoshop but it's obvious that you airbrush your skin and slap on lighting/bloom effects that veil facial features and make everything look smoother/softer. I understand wanting to conceal your flaws and receive positive feedback, but posts stating others are jealous of you and that it makes you feel better than being called beautiful is a little... Well, what the others said. I really hope that I am not offending you but it's probably worth noting that HRT isn't magic... It's not photoshop. Ultimately I think you are creating a lot of unhealthy expectations and I frankly don't blame you, but... Yeah. Feet on the ground is better I think =/

That said, I hope your transition is as you hope it to be. I think I can wish nothing but the best to people who've been through gender dysphoria. 

Furthermore, age hasn't got all that much to do with it... Not once you're over 16. Look at the Miami TG prom queen, she doesn't pass and has probably started HRT very early. My endocrinologist said that age wasn't the most important thing. Genetics and responsiveness to estrogen are. You cannot predict these things...

Again, I really hope I don't sound mean but we should stop perpetuating lies about HRT so that people don't get mislead when going into it. No therapist will give you guarantees that you'll be happy with the results... We shouldn't be doing it either... =/

[stephaniec]

Another thing is, I am being barred from transitioning until a year and a half from now, so all I can do now is reassure myself that it will all be worth it, and a bubble of elitism is resulting from that. When I transition, that bubble will surely pop and I'll become more modest. But right now, I am youthful and I am being restricted from transitioning. That's a year and a half of my youth that I'll never get back, even if I am lucky that I'm still transitioning so early. It's different to be experiencing youth when you want to transition than looking back on it. It's not knowing that you could've made things different, it's the frustration that you so easily can and yet such a simple thing is holding me back and keeping me from it.

just to give you a little perspective , I've had this mind body conflict since birth. I lived in a different time. If you had this situation back then they wanted to electro sock you into not wanting to be female. I was lucky my parents knew how I was but decided to protect me. next came the many therapist who thought the right approach was to man up. The path to freedom was hidden from me . I've finally made it to what I so desperately needed since basically birth , but realistically  if I could of gotten it, it would of been when I first approach a psychiatrist at 20. I never once stopped progressing towards women hood it's just that I was denied hormones because I didn't know it was possible. therapist never offered to show me the path. It took a bout with suicide to open the door .I'm so glad I made it to that door. Whether or not people accept the female me eventually is almost irrelevant compared to the way my brain is healing on estrogen. Oh by the way you are very lucky, I had to wait till I was 62.

[Chic]

Uhm... I don't want to sound like a bitch but your pictures are clearly edited. I don't know much about photoshop but it's obvious that you airbrush your skin and slap on lighting/bloom effects that veil facial features and make everything look smoother/softer. I understand wanting to conceal your flaws and receive positive feedback, but posts stating others are jealous of you and that it makes you feel better than being called beautiful is a little... Well, what the others said. I really hope that I am not offending you but it's probably worth noting that HRT isn't magic... It's not photoshop. Ultimately I think you are creating a lot of unhealthy expectations and I frankly don't blame you, but... Yeah. Feet on the ground is better I think =/

That said, I hope your transition is as you hope it to be. I used to relate with hoping age is a determining factor but there's more than that to it...

Furthermore, age hasn't got all that much to do with it... Not once you're over 16. Look at the Miami TG prom queen, she doesn't pass and has probably started HRT very early. My endocrinologist said that age wasn't the most important thing. Genetics and responsiveness to estrogen are. You cannot predict these things...

Again, I really hope I don't sound mean but we should stop perpetuating lies about HRT so that people don't get mislead when going into it. No therapist will give you guarantees that you'll be happy with the results... We shouldn't be doing it either... =/

The same effects I achieve with adding makeup to my pictures are the same I'll achieve by applying makeup in real life. I know I'm not going to look like I do in the pictures when I wake up, but I've seen people walk around the streets look the same as I do in the pictures and they're not airbrushing themselves except with makeup. HRT will surely clear up the rough spots of not being able to pass as female without makeup right now.

I understand that my expectations should be lower, but it's all I can do to distract myself from dysphoria as I have to wait to transition.

I wouldn't say that other people have said they're jealous of me if they really hadn't. These are actual posts on Susan's that I can quote. Would I be lying if I said they didn't flatter me? Yes. Am I particularly happy about fellow transgirls being jealous of me? No. It sucks that I'm being built up this way sometimes, and it also sucks that I see a lack of confidence in other people. I'm no model, not yet, if I even am one when I transition. I'm no role model until I transition. Nobody wants to hear advice from a pre-everything transgender. I don't feel better than anyone else.

[Chic]

just to give you a little perspective , I've had this mind body conflict since birth. I lived in a different time. If you had this situation back then they wanted to electro sock you into not wanting to be female. I was lucky my parents knew how I was but decided to protect me. next came the many therapist who thought the right approach was to man up. The path to freedom was hidden from me . I've finally made it to what I so desperately needed since basically birth , but realistically  if I could of gotten it, it would of been when I first approach a psychiatrist at 20. I never once stopped progressing towards women hood it's just that I was denied hormones because I didn't know it was possible. therapist never offered to show me the path. It took a bout with suicide to open the door .I'm so glad I made it to that door. Whether or not people accept the female me eventually is almost irrelevant compared to the way my brain is healing on estrogen. Oh by the way you are very lucky, I had to wait till I was 62.

I know this now and I have the utmost sympathy for you...the time you grew up in was horrible. I can't imagine how it must have been. I am a bit confused, correct me if mistaken, how you were somehow oblivious on how to obtain hormones over the last 20 years, if it was societal backlash that first prevented you from it in the first place. I don't know the exact situation.

That's the thing though. If it seems that I'm trying to make my problems seem worse than anyone else's, that isn't it. Every Transgirl has problems. It's not fair to compare problems in this way, especially when the impact is subjective and dependent on how the person in question views it. Your whole life has prevented you from transitioning, and my whole life as well, despite the fact we're at different ages. So while the lifetimes are of different length, they're still lifetimes, and my perspective may not be the same as yours because I'm transitioning at a luckier time and therefore won't live as long as you have without transitioning. I am lucky in the sense that I can do this while I am in my teen years.

[Jessica Merriman]

how you were somehow oblivious on how to obtain hormones over the last 20 years, if it was societal backlash that first prevented you from it in the first place. I don't know the exact situation.

Because we lived so long without the benefit of acceptance for one and it was a lot harder for us to come out. The other thing is we had much more to lose with families, careers and other things single young people don't. It takes a while to dispose of all of those things.