Male socialization

[sad panda]

Thanks hon. Well, I guess my feelings right now are both rational and emotional. I think it adds insult to injury to be born as 'the other' when you're male inside. And that ftms have to deal with something mtfs don't - accusations and insinuations we are just trying to escape a 'lower status'. Mtfs don't have that to deal with. They never have to wonder if somehow at age 2 they got the message it was less preferable to be female. Usually, their childhood experiences enforce directly the opposite - that they are of the 'ruling class' and should never deign to don the clothing or mannerisms of slaves. (now that's a bit of a dramatic way to put it but... pretty much).

So as an ftm, I've got to deal with all this stuff. I've got to feel bad about acquiring what society sees as the preferred position.

I completely understand why you would feel that way. And I agree that what you're saying is part rational, part emotional. It probably helps to sit down and go, which is the rational part, and which is emotional?

Umh, for example, when you say that ftms have to deal with accusations and insinuations that mtfs don't, trying to escape a lower status... I think the part that is rational is that FTMs DO have to deal with that, and MTFs don't. I think the emotional part is subtle. The emotional part is the implication that FTMs have a negative experience here that MTFs have no equivalent of. The reality is that they have a negative experience that is unique to them, but not necessarily that there is no equivalent for MTFs.

I mean, that's an invalidating reaction to your transition. But on the rational side, don't MTFs also have their motivations questions and reduced to something invalidating? Paraphilia. Fetishist gone wild.

The implications are different and happen for different reasons but in this case, the implication is the same... being unfit to transition via some fault attributed to your birth sex.

So rationally, I would want to call that a negative experience of being trans as a whole, even if it happens for different reasons on either side. And I think that would save an MTF person feeling invalidated at the emotional implication (MTFs don't have their motivations questioned like FTMs do) and saying that people accuse them of just having a weird sexual fantasy.

This is just an example of why I'm trying to split the rational/emotional stuff we're saying in this thread... cuz when it's blurred you get people who are speaking 2 different languages and of course it's frustrating.

So everything you said is valid, but I'm just suggesting that it means different things in different places that can come off as confusing. What do you think? Sorry if this is not making any sense to anyone.

And I want to reiterate that I'm not trying to set those things as perfectly equal. I don't really know if it's equal or not. I don't really know who has it worse. But at the end of the day people don't experience it like that. Everybody feels bad about some things and good about others. And it's totally okay to focus on what you feel bad about. And to acknowledge that there is a broader, very real social context that affects it in some way, but that maybe it's hard to know the exact level of effect on a personal level. You just need to remember that it's personal first when it's emotional. And it's impersonal first when it's rational. So you have to make points mainly rationally and vent mainly emotionally, and I think if everyone does that we will all be on more or less the same page. Or at least closer to that!

[Jill F]

@ Carrie

Those are your feelings and experiences. And I respect that. And I care that you've had such a hard time and don't see anything of benefit to this. We're not just male and female brains floating around not absorbing everything though. And I feel like there's little to no empathy or recognition around here for the female upbringing side of things. I mean, I recognize that the male upbringing is seriously toxic and awful. I guess I'd just like the same in return. I'm dealing with trying to let go of my past and all this. Which is why I keep talking about this stuff. I'm trying to heal. I'm trying to heal from all this stuff so I can move on.

It just feels like there's a lot of constant denial that it might actually really suck to win the genetic lottery of being born what is perceived all over the world as the lesser half of humanity.

You got screwed.  We all got screwed.  Bigtime.  Do I think females get treated worse?  Yes, of course.  We are too often victims of violent crimes and systematically subjugated.  Girls also receive some toxic cultural programming where it is reinforced that they are to be pretty, thin, have a nice figure and not to be assertive or uppity.  What is even more toxic is that females judge each other on these cultural criteria, further reinforcing this.  Girls are too often not expected to be smart, succesful or have a keen business sense.  In some coutries, being female is a much worse thing than in the US.  I certainly wouldn't want to be female in an Islamic country, for instance.  In college I watched a women's studies film about Chinese women called Small Happiness.  When a male child is born, it is considered a big happiness.  When a girl is born, it is a small happiness.  Sometimes a girl is so much less desirable that infanticide is practiced, in hope that the next child born will be male.  It was heartbreaking. 

I had to deal with horrible bullying as a kid.  I was an outcast, a misfit and I did not feel like I was properly socialzed, programmed or equipped to be either male or female.  I never could relate to dudebro culture and missed out on a lot of positive experiences that most boys got.  I had no alpha male friends and have no freaking clue how to be a leader or have a drive to be successful.  I spent my college years getting wasted and had no idea why I was even there.  I got a useless degree after almost six aimless years and had crappy grades that pretty much guaranteed that I was never going to grad school and be a success.  The most useful things I learned in college, as it turned out, were from hanging out with women.  I probably set the world record for most platonic female friends and almost felt like an honorary girl at times.  Some were sweet, but some could be incredibly cruel and jealous.  I no longer wonder why I seemed to understand girl culture better than guy culture.

Would I choose to be female?  Probably not, all things considered.  The thing is that I just am, and that's how it is.  I'm me and I'm going to do the best I can playing out the crappy hand I got dealt.  If you think being raised as female was crappy, being middle aged and female isn't that wonderful either.  I'm not sure the grass is really all that much greener on this side of the fence.

We all got screwed and the only thing we can do is move forward and try not to let our painful pasts hurt us any further.  We served our time, and that's enough.

Hugs,
Jill

[Nero]

@ sad panda's reply and also to Carrie

Oh I agree. I mean, I know trans women are demonized way more. And that there's a lot more backlash, including violence that I will pretty much never have to worry about on that level. And that trans women are seen as having some weird sick, perverted issue and trans men really aren't. I mean, I fully acknowledge that trans women as a group have it a lot worse than I do. And arguably even worse than cis females after transition in some cases.

So, there's been a lot of talk about this over the years. And I think most people acknowledge that generally speaking, trans women have it worse after transition. And that in a lot of cases they suffered more as children as well. I think what has been lost in the conversation however, is that the main reason things are the way they are for trans women - is that they are seen as trying to occupy the lower status that I was born into.

Like ok, say we've got an ancient household that has a full retinue or whatever it was called of slaves. And the master's son or daughter is repeatedly beaten for wearing the slaves' clothes or adopting their mannerisms. And maybe the slaves aren't even beaten as much as this master's child.

This might seem a bit over the top as an example, but it makes sense if you think about it. No matter who the master's child is, he or she is beaten for trying to occupy a position I actually occupy. Ya know? So, okay I'm a slave there. And maybe I've got a fairly decent life - not beaten or whatever. So in terms of certain things, this master's child suffers from more beatings and such than I do. But it's all because she's seen as trying to lower herself to what I actually am to people. So, if she's got such backlash just displaying characteristics associated with my position...
Well, think about it. It's really not an enviable position.

[sad panda]

@ sad panda's reply and also to Carrie

Oh I agree. I mean, I know trans women are demonized way more. And that there's a lot more backlash, including violence that I will pretty much never have to worry about on that level. And that trans women are seen as having some weird sick, perverted issue and trans men really aren't. I mean, I fully acknowledge that trans women as a group have it a lot worse than I do. And arguably even worse than cis females after transition in some cases.

So, there's been a lot of talk about this over the years. And I think most people acknowledge that generally speaking, trans women have it worse after transition. And that in a lot of cases they suffered more as children as well. I think what has been lost in the conversation however, is that the main reason things are the way they are for trans women - is that they are seen as trying to occupy the lower status that I was born into.

Like ok, say we've got an ancient household that has a full retinue or whatever it was called of slaves. And the master's son or daughter is repeatedly beaten for wearing the slaves' clothes or adopting their mannerisms. And maybe the slaves aren't even beaten as much as this master's child.

This might seem a bit over the top as an example, but it makes sense if you think about it. No matter who the master's child is, he or she is beaten for trying to occupy a position I actually occupy. Ya know? So, okay I'm a slave there. And maybe I've got a fairly decent life - not beaten or whatever. So in terms of certain things, this master's child suffers from more beatings and such than I do. But it's all because she's seen as trying to lower herself to what I actually am to people. So, if she's got such backlash just displaying characteristics associated with my position...
Well, think about it. It's really not an enviable position.

I hope you got that I was just isolating one thing you said to point out that you could communicate the exact same sentiment differently. My post wasn't making a point about the topic, just about communication. you are communicating to real people here. That means you either want to be understood by them or you want them to react to what you said.

Obviously, I don't personally find your position enviable! <--- that's my personal/emotional bit. There's a rational motivation to it but I don't need anyone to say anything about it. I'm just expressing how I feel.

Then, rationally... I also wonder who you are making it to. Again, it's confusing me, because you're talking like you're trying to prove a point, but I can't tell right now who you are proving it to or why, because you said it's to me but you know I already agree. So I'm not sure what to do with it. And that makes me really feel like you're trying to express how something affected you, not prove a point. Would you agree with that? Or were you trying to prove a point? (That women have lower status)

Like what you said in the end... it's not an enviable position... would that be your point? Hon, envy is an emotion, you can't ever prove a point about an emotion cuz emotions are personal and they can be weird and bad and wrong. It is enviable if someone envies it. Do you have a problem with them envying that? Something they shouldn't envy? I mean is it insulting because they don't understand the full picture? (and not to mention that they're envying cis girls, not you, which is similar to what you experienced but thru a different perspective) I get why, but also, does it matter? If you base how you feel on whether or not they envy it, you're putting your happiness in someone else's brain. At some point you have to own it. You have to accept that it's enough for you to know it was wrong. You have to accept that the wrongness of it doesn't depend on how other people feel about it. That's a self-validation problem deep down. I know it's not easy, but trying to convince other people to feel something is never gonna help it's just gonna make you feel worse and more angry.

Again, everything I'm saying here... I'm just trying to help from what I've learned about dealing with pain. If I'm off base, tell me! I want to know how everyone feels. Cuz I'm trying to communicate how I feel too and I don't want people to fight anymore.

[Nero]

Oh I just added the '@ sad panda and Carrie' because I saw someone had already posted before I was done and I wanted to make it clear I was replying to your post generally. I mean, I know you get it and some others here get it, like Jen.

Really, I just want people to understand where I'm coming from. And what I'm trying to heal from. I mean, I've got a lot of mixed feelings even talking about it. I absolutely hate even acknowledging being female affected me in any way. And I would never have mentioned this early in transition. It's only years down the road, realizing I need to heal from some of this. And some of it really is growing up female. I guess I'm just trying to say that I think something in the general psyche is damaged by growing up into a position the world views as inferior (and has for pretty much ever). And I'm trying to heal from it.

I don't know. I guess for me, there's some misguided hope that trans women will be my sisters in this. (yeah, I know sister is a female term, but I lost my sisters and really miss the term)

[Jill F]

Oh I just added the '@ sad panda and Carrie' because I saw someone had already posted before I was done and I wanted to make it clear I was replying to your post generally. I mean, I know you get it and some others here get it, like Jen.

Really, I just want people to understand where I'm coming from. And what I'm trying to heal from. I mean, I've got a lot of mixed feelings even talking about it. I absolutely hate even acknowledging being female affected me in any way. And I would never have mentioned this early in transition. It's only years down the road, realizing I need to heal from some of this. And some of it really is growing up female. I guess I'm just trying to say that I think something in the general psyche is damaged by growing up into a position the world views as inferior (and has for pretty much ever). And I'm trying to heal from it.

I don't know. I guess for me, there's some misguided hope that trans women will be my sisters in this. (yeah, I know sister is a female term, but I lost my sisters and really miss the term)

Big hug from your big sister, FA!

[stephaniec]

well I don't know if this fits into the conversation or not because I'm trying to do two things at once right now. I'm trying to keep up with the discussion and work on my math hobby at the same time, but I wanted to say I've felt totally inferior in the male world all my life  so to be woman for me is just a lateral move.

[sad panda]

Oh I just added the '@ sad panda and Carrie' because I saw someone had already posted before I was done and I wanted to make it clear I was replying to your post generally. I mean, I know you get it and some others here get it, like Jen.

Really, I just want people to understand where I'm coming from. And what I'm trying to heal from. I mean, I've got a lot of mixed feelings even talking about it. I absolutely hate even acknowledging being female affected me in any way. And I would never have mentioned this early in transition. It's only years down the road, realizing I need to heal from some of this. And some of it really is growing up female. I guess I'm just trying to say that I think something in the general psyche is damaged by growing up into a position the world views as inferior (and has for pretty much ever). And I'm trying to heal from it.

I don't know. I guess for me, there's some misguided hope that trans women will be my sisters in this. (yeah, I know sister is a female term, but I lost my sisters and really miss the term)

Great! You want people to understand. ...that's perfect. Ofc, not everyone is going to understand, and you need to let that be okay too, bc otherwise it's not worth the energy, you can't conquer understanding. c:

You have people here who understand. Not everyone, but you do. You have sisters here...if you can see that in them. I mean you can talk about it here, you can pm me, you can pm a lot of us. I just want you to allow yourself to feel good about that. Or how can you move forward? I mean, you can always find new common ground with anyone and everyone here, but you have found some, and that is wonderful and so valuable. Don't you agree?

[Nero]

Oh I just added the '@ sad panda and Carrie' because I saw someone had already posted before I was done and I wanted to make it clear I was replying to your post generally. I mean, I know you get it and some others here get it, like Jen.

Really, I just want people to understand where I'm coming from. And what I'm trying to heal from. I mean, I've got a lot of mixed feelings even talking about it. I absolutely hate even acknowledging being female affected me in any way. And I would never have mentioned this early in transition. It's only years down the road, realizing I need to heal from some of this. And some of it really is growing up female. I guess I'm just trying to say that I think something in the general psyche is damaged by growing up into a position the world views as inferior (and has for pretty much ever). And I'm trying to heal from it.

I don't know. I guess for me, there's some misguided hope that trans women will be my sisters in this. (yeah, I know sister is a female term, but I lost my sisters and really miss the term)

Great! You want people to understand. ...that's perfect. Ofc, not everyone is going to understand, and you need to let that be okay too, bc otherwise it's not worth the energy, you can't conquer understanding. c:

You have people here who understand. Not everyone, but you do. You have sisters here...if you can see that in them. I mean you can talk about it here, you can pm me, you can pm a lot of us. I just want you to allow yourself to feel good about that. Or how can you move forward? I mean, you can always find new common ground with anyone and everyone here, but you have found some, and that is wonderful and so valuable. Don't you agree?

Yeah, I guess I really have. And that is awesome. 

I guess I just need help healing and moving forward.

[Nero]

You got screwed.  We all got screwed.  Bigtime.  Do I think females get treated worse?  Yes, of course.  We are too often victims of violent crimes and systematically subjugated.  Girls also receive some toxic cultural programming where it is reinforced that they are to be pretty, thin, have a nice figure and not to be assertive or uppity.  What is even more toxic is that females judge each other on these cultural criteria, further reinforcing this.  Girls are too often not expected to be smart, succesful or have a keen business sense.  In some coutries, being female is a much worse thing than in the US.  I certainly wouldn't want to be female in an Islamic country, for instance.  In college I watched a women's studies film about Chinese women called Small Happiness.  When a male child is born, it is considered a big happiness.  When a girl is born, it is a small happiness.  Sometimes a girl is so much less desirable that infanticide is practiced, in hope that the next child born will be male.  It was heartbreaking. 

I had to deal with horrible bullying as a kid.  I was an outcast, a misfit and I did not feel like I was properly socialzed, programmed or equipped to be either male or female.  I never could relate to dudebro culture and missed out on a lot of positive experiences that most boys got.  I had no alpha male friends and have no freaking clue how to be a leader or have a drive to be successful.  I spent my college years getting wasted and had no idea why I was even there.  I got a useless degree after almost six aimless years and had crappy grades that pretty much guaranteed that I was never going to grad school and be a success.  The most useful things I learned in college, as it turned out, were from hanging out with women.  I probably set the world record for most platonic female friends and almost felt like an honorary girl at times.  Some were sweet, but some could be incredibly cruel and jealous.  I no longer wonder why I seemed to understand girl culture better than guy culture.

Would I choose to be female?  Probably not, all things considered.  The thing is that I just am, and that's how it is.  I'm me and I'm going to do the best I can playing out the crappy hand I got dealt.  If you think being raised as female was crappy, being middle aged and female isn't that wonderful either.  I'm not sure the grass is really all that much greener on this side of the fence.

We all got screwed and the only thing we can do is move forward and try not to let our painful pasts hurt us any further.  We served our time, and that's enough.

Hugs,
Jill

Thanks hon. I guess for me, a lot of the stuff I'm trying to work through seems female specific. And I guess there's a bitterness there - because while I probably would have other problems from growing up male, they wouldn't be these problems. Ya know?

Okay, for me - even though I've transitioned long ago - I am still viewing myself from the very critical, cruel eyes of a female. Especially in terms of appearance and age - both things that plague the average woman.

[sad panda]

I guess I just need help healing and moving forward.

This is not to take away from what I just said, but to be completely honest, I don't think you can do all of that here. I mean on susan's. Cuz you've said it before, as much as you put into this place, it's not really attached to you. I mean the other way around. It's anonymous.

(Not that you aren't breaking out of your admin shell... and that takes a lot of courage.)

But some healing does have to be done in real relationships. Which is probably really scary. but because it's scary... that is exactly why it has the power to heal.

Not saying you can't have your e-sistahs to talk it out with too. Cuz as far as that goes, we got your back.

I think either way you are heading towards something that is probably going to change your reality. Don't give up on it. You are totally doing the right thing in letting yourself feel this stuff out. That is my opinion... and I'm on a healing journey of my own, too. (:

[Nero]

Thanks sweetie. That means more than you know.

But I've got nowhere else. I'm pretty stealth, really. I mean, imagine me trying to talk to guys about this! That would be crazy and like suicide lol. And girls, again stealth. I can't talk to them about this. But also, I moved and don't know anyone here anyway. I would absolutely love to have girl friends in real life. But it didn't happen when I was a girl and not sure it can really happen now either. There's definitely a different vibe.

I mean, as a woman, even when a woman knew I was attracted to her, she usually just thought it was cute. Ya know? As a guy, it's a little different. I guess.

[Jill F]

Thanks hon. I guess for me, a lot of the stuff I'm trying to work through seems female specific. And I guess there's a bitterness there - because while I probably would have other problems from growing up male, they wouldn't be these problems. Ya know?

Okay, for me - even though I've transitioned long ago - I am still viewing myself from the very critical, cruel eyes of a female. Especially in terms of appearance and age - both things that plague the average woman.

If I was cis, I probably would have had a very different experience growing up, and I'm sure you would have as well.  I can see where your bitterness comes from, and I really do get how being trans on top of what you went through must have seemed like a big, cosmic f-you.

I can tell that you are a wonderful, thoughtful, caring, beautiful person.  And not all females have critical, cruel eyes either.  If there's something you don't like about your appearance, you can either learn to like what you see or make some adjustments.  Been there.  I know a lot of cisguys who simply don't care about what they look like and are happy campers being fat, bald, short and gray.  They are comfortable enough in their own skin and these things don't matter. 

I wish I could make you feel better, I really do.  I want nothing more than to see you happy.

[stephaniec]

If I was cis, I probably would have had a very different experience growing up, and I'm sure you would have as well.  I can see where your bitterness comes from, and I really do get how being trans on top of what you went through must have seemed like a big, cosmic f-you.

I can tell that you are a wonderful, thoughtful, caring, beautiful person.  And not all females have critical, cruel eyes either.  If there's something you don't like about your appearance, you can either learn to like what you see or make some adjustments.  Been there.  I know a lot of cisguys who simply don't care about what they look like and are happy campers being fat, bald, short and gray.  They are comfortable enough in their own skin and these things don't matter. 

I wish I could make you feel better, I really do.  I want nothing more than to see you happy.

ditto

[sad panda]

Thanks sweetie. That means more than you know.

But I've got nowhere else. I'm pretty stealth, really. I mean, imagine me trying to talk to guys about this! That would be crazy and like suicide lol. And girls, again stealth. I can't talk to them about this. But also, I moved and don't know anyone here anyway. I would absolutely love to have girl friends in real life. But it didn't happen when I was a girl and not sure it can really happen now either. There's definitely a different vibe.

I mean, as a woman, even when a woman knew I was attracted to her, she usually just thought it was cute. Ya know? As a guy, it's a little different. I guess.

Uh-uh. That's defeatist. There are an awful lot of girls out there, each of them have their own personality. If they exist on susan's they exist in the real world too.... I know you can and I can't isn't gonna get you there.

A good starting place is a therapist. It's a relationship for and about you that you can screw up as many times as you want. (and chances are they have met someone way crazier than you)

But don't say you can't have friends, or you can't talk about this to people in real life. I know you don't believe that and what you're saying is it's too hard. Well, yah, it's hard. But it doesn't cost anything to hope... and one day maybe you're gonna have an awesome friend. Or lots. Who really knows. Just don't give up on yourself over how things have been in the past... growth happens because you get better than the past.

Am I getting annoying now? Lol. Well, you wanted a sister. Deal with it. :3 I'm gonna be naggy.

[Nero]

Thanks girls!

Honestly, this thread has turned awesome. I know it probably sounds a little weird. But for me, this kind of sharing and listening is awesome for me. I mean, I really never had female friends. And it has been this void in my life. probably because it was something denied me. And so I see any kindness shown to me by a woman as gold. Really.

So my haters will probably scoff and maybe even question my manhood. But I don't care. Because right now, with all these women here being open and sharing - gold. Really.

[Nero]

Thanks sweetie. That means more than you know.

But I've got nowhere else. I'm pretty stealth, really. I mean, imagine me trying to talk to guys about this! That would be crazy and like suicide lol. And girls, again stealth. I can't talk to them about this. But also, I moved and don't know anyone here anyway. I would absolutely love to have girl friends in real life. But it didn't happen when I was a girl and not sure it can really happen now either. There's definitely a different vibe.

I mean, as a woman, even when a woman knew I was attracted to her, she usually just thought it was cute. Ya know? As a guy, it's a little different. I guess.

Uh-uh. That's defeatist. There are an awful lot of girls out there, each of them have their own personality. If they exist on susan's they exist in the real world too.... I know you can and I can't isn't gonna get you there.

A good starting place is a therapist. It's a relationship for and about you that you can screw up as many times as you want. (and chances are they have met someone way crazier than you)

But don't say you can't have friends, or you can't talk about this to people in real life. I know you don't believe that and what you're saying is it's too hard. Well, yah, it's hard. But it doesn't cost anything to hope... and one day maybe you're gonna have an awesome friend. Or lots. Who really knows. Just don't give up on yourself over how things have been in the past... growth happens because you get better than the past.

Am I getting annoying now? Lol. Well, you wanted a sister. Deal with it. :3 I'm gonna be naggy.

Lol starting to sound like my sister! (god I miss her) I hope you're right. 

[sad panda]

Lol starting to sound like my sister! (god I miss her) I hope you're right. 

Aww... I'm so sorry. And I'm also honored that you would think that. I don't know anything about your sister but I bet she would be proud that you're making this effort to heal. You just need a hug.

[Miss_Bungle1991]

What was your experience like growing up perceived as a male? How do you feel that affected you? And how has that affected/will that affect your experience as a trans woman? Let's have a thread where everyone can talk about their socialization and what you're struggling with. (:

Well, the thing is...I was always stuck in the middle. The very few friends I had all knew there was something "off" about me in terms of gender. I never had any sort of "male privilege". So, I always felt like I was stuck in the middle. One of the things that always stuck out back in my early school days was when we played dodge ball in gym class. They would split up the girls and the guys and in my mind I was always in the middle going, 'this really sucks', because I never fit in on either side.

It hasn't affected how things are now because I blend in okay so it's not a big deal these days.

[Nero]

Lol starting to sound like my sister! (god I miss her) I hope you're right. 

Aww... I'm so sorry. And I'm also honored that you would think that. I don't know anything about your sister but I bet she would be proud that you're making this effort to heal. You just need a hug.

thanks honey. I think maybe the pain and void of female friendships intensified for me once my sisters were gone. Because while I never had female friends, I did have sisters.
What I miss most is that no matter what ever happened to me or whatever I was going through - I'd be fresh from jail and sick, shaken and traumatized by everything that happened. And there would be my sister at the door. With the look of love and compassion only a girl can give. The hug only a girl can give. The way she said my name - just the kind of instant comfort only a woman can give. And maybe only a sister can give. Oh god, sorry. Crying. My heart is broken. Really broken.