Susan's Place Logo

News:

Please be sure to review The Site terms of service, and rules to live by

Main Menu

What Would You Do ?

Started by Anatta, April 24, 2014, 06:36:22 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Anatta

Quote from: learningtolive on April 24, 2014, 08:36:30 PM
I see your point, but I still wouldn't change my answer.  Despite my many issues that are well documented here, I'm glad to be myself and like that I've found my own way.  If I was just something that was programmed at birth, I don't know.  I guess we are all programmed at birth in certain way, but the interference goes beyond natural genetics. It takes away our discovery and individuality in some way. I've gone through a lot of pain in my life and there are things I wish I never had to go through, but I'm the unique me that could have only existed under these conditions.  I want the children of the future to be their own unique them.

Kia Ora LTL,

But the child would not know of the congenital changes that had taken place...Just the trials & tribulations that comes from growing up a somewhat 'normal' cis child...

The other point in your post it would seem relates to whether one sees gender as "mind (subjective experience) or matter(relates solely to the brain) "Nature or Nurture" or both ...

I gather that the neuroscience involved would involve the interaction of hormones to parts of the brain which in turn would somehow change the neuropathways of the newly forming brain...(But I'm no neuroscientist so I'm only guessing)....The whole subject of gender is just fascinating.... 

Metta Anatta :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Jill F

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 24, 2014, 09:02:42 PM
I the end I totally agree with Tiffany. I think it would set a bad precedent and other conditions would be tampered with. Humankind just does not know when to stop. Being trans is just part of life, good or bad. It may be terrible, but it makes us, well, us. :)

Exactly my point.  Would I have wanted to be "cured" in the womb if I knew that the person I would become wouldn't exactly be me? 

My wife says no effing way.  What if I turned into an a*hole or had zero musical talent?
  •  

Jessica Merriman

Quote from: Anatta on April 24, 2014, 09:07:10 PM
But the child would not know of the congenital changes that had taken place
The fix could also cause other issue's like DES did. I would not like to be like everyone else. I would not be original anymore. :)
  •  

Anatta

Kia Ora,

"I" think some are going beyond the hypothetical question that relates to those not yet born, and if science(no doubt it would be neuroscience) was in the position to change the possible unsavoury outcomes ...

The interesting and encouraging thing about all this, is how many are now saying they wouldn't change a thing, indicating that "what does not kill you makes you stronger" ...And if this is truly the case I hope they will take this newfound courage by the horns and run with it through all life's trials and tribulations  and safely complete their journey...

However regarding the hypothetical question I still stand by my original stance of : I would not wish the trans-experience on anybody...Even though I may have past through virtually unscathed(lived to tell the tale), I see many less fortunate than my self...

BTW it's good to see the shifts in opinions....

Metta Anatta :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Jessica Merriman

Quote from: Anatta on April 24, 2014, 09:30:36 PM
BTW it's good to see the shifts in opinions....
Being trans opinions are not the only things we shift! *giggle* ;D
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: Aisla on April 24, 2014, 09:01:07 PM
Kia Ora

One oerson's challenge, is another person's suffering.  Both can offer a path to growth, discovery and enlightenment.   Removing nuance and moving to standardisation is not necessarily a good thing. I think that the focus should be on eradicating life threatening disorders.

Aisla

Kia Ora Aisla,

I agree but... sadly "for some", the trans-condition "is" a life threatening disorder...

Metta Anatta :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 24, 2014, 09:33:37 PM
Being trans opinions are not the only things we shift! *giggle* ;D

Kia Ora Jessica,

True  ;) ;D

Metta Anatta :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

TerriT

Quote from: Anatta on April 24, 2014, 08:07:07 PM
Kia Ora,

I gather some here have a very vivid imagination and strong opinions, but this purely hypothetical question is not meant to be about aborting foetuses nor eugenics ...This was not the intention of the thread...so....

Imagine if scientists have found a way to safely 'prevent' the potential physical and mental 'suffering' of the new born child in later years (without having to abort the foetus)...

I would not wish what I've been through on others, so if scientists did find a 'safe' way I would support it whole heartedly....



Metta Anatta :)

Do you even realize how insulting this is? You are saying that through some scientific breakthrough that would cure trans from somebody before they're even born, you would be ok with that. And when I bring up a real world, historically accurate depiction of exactly what that kind of thinking creates, you accuse me of having a "vivid imagination" ::) I also find it insulting that you act as if removing transness from somebody is this high minded endeavor and way of saving them.

What happens to people who are still born trans because their parents decided it wasn't a crime to be trans? Do they have to live with fewer resources? Is there even more fear of being trans? Is it less socially acceptable because it should have been eradicated? How do they feel about not being "cured" before they were born? Will this hypothetical cure be mandated and enforced? There are more involved ethical questions and more serious consequences than you even realize. But you treat it as if it's just some casual topic to be discussed around the table. Do some research and you will find that humans have been having and implementing this hypothetical cure of yours for over a century. And it's not imaginary.
  •  

antonia

I would welcome a cure, be it in the way of making sure our brains developed the same way as our bodies or the other way around.

Wishing gender dysphoria upon another person is in my humble opinion like hazing, just because we had to endure pain and it probably made us who we are does not mean that others should be forced to follow in our footsteps. I also got bullied as a kid, although it did make me stronger does not mean that I want other kids to be bullied.

As for changing DNA, I'm a type 1 diabetic, without genetic engineering I would be dead, my insulin is grown using genetically modified bacteria. As such I think genetic modifications are a good thing.

The question of should we modify human DNA, well that's a whole other subject that has nothing to do with being trans or genetic modifications in general, I think this is a philosophical and societal question rather than a medical or scientific question.

In my opinion it will happen because it's impossible to ban it in every country and it can easily yield short term benefits for whoever does allow it to happen, I can't say about long term benefits but capitalism is not affected by long term benefits so unless we change the economic system of the entire world I think we are bound to head down the path of designer kids.
  •  

xponentialshift

I don't think that the cure would be necessary if science progresses as far as you suggest. By that point people would be more knowledgeable about the trans* community and more importantly, parents would be aware of a child's gender identity prior to birth which means that a MAAB child who is identified as mtf can be raised completely as female and begin a "traditional" transition as soon as medically advised.

Also I'm not sure which way the suggested cure would work... Would a MAAB have their brain altered so they identify as male, or would the treatment modify their primary and secondary sex characteristics to female to match their gender identity?

Either way I feel it is more important for the world to be more aware and accepting of varied gender identities including non binary identities. They bring more perspective to life and should not be shoved into one gender or the other. That said I wouldn't protest against a "cure" I just don't think it would always be the best option.
  •  

Anatta

Kia Ora,

Thank you for the interesting responses so far....

Some trans-people believe HRT(which BTW is for the most part synthetic) along with changing the body can also change the way one perceives things,(Ones sexual orientation for example) if this is truly the case, are we not already meddling with Mother Nature ? Acting like a creator god ?

I'm well aware of the history of eugenics and how at one stage Germany and the US had great interest in it, but I would like to stress, this is not about the worse case scenario...it's about on compassionate grounds (and I do mean compassionate grounds) if neuroscientists could find a safe way of 'helping' to 'end' unnecessary suffering (in other words where babies are still born but their developing gender matches their birthsex)....Remember for many, being trans is no walk in the park...

I apologise if the contents of this thread makes some feel uncomfortable, I added a "TRIGGER WARNING" just in case....So please don't read more into it than what's been written...

Metta Anatta :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: antonia on April 24, 2014, 11:11:40 PM
I would welcome a cure, be it in the way of making sure our brains developed the same way as our bodies or the other way around.

Wishing gender dysphoria upon another person is in my humble opinion like hazing, just because we had to endure pain and it probably made us who we are does not mean that others should be forced to follow in our footsteps. I also got bullied as a kid, although it did make me stronger does not mean that I want other kids to be bullied.

As for changing DNA, I'm a type 1 diabetic, without genetic engineering I would be dead, my insulin is grown using genetically modified bacteria. As such I think genetic modifications are a good thing.

The question of should we modify human DNA, well that's a whole other subject that has nothing to do with being trans or genetic modifications in general, I think this is a philosophical and societal question rather than a medical or scientific question.

In my opinion it will happen because it's impossible to ban it in every country and it can easily yield short term benefits for whoever does allow it to happen, I can't say about long term benefits but capitalism is not affected by long term benefits so unless we change the economic system of the entire world I think we are bound to head down the path of designer kids.

Kia Ora Antonia,

You make some interesting points, but arn't designer children already a reality ?

Metta Anatta :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

Anatta

Quote from: Skyler Lusk on April 24, 2014, 09:06:26 PM
No way would I ever want to be 'cured' I don't have a disease. If i was born cis male then I wouldn't be me and I wouldn't have gone through the worst years of my young life to become more understanding and thoughtful of others.  The 'pain' 'suffering' is mostly brought on from others that discriminate against us...why should we have to change and not humanity it self to be more understating and knowledgeable, just a thought to a hypothetical question ;)

I'm proud to be trans* for who I am today.

Kia Ora Skyler,

I'm happy that you're proud (and hope you will continue to be proud of who you are and what you achieve)...But look at the big picture, if there was a way to stop others from going through the pain, anguish, suffering that many go through, if a cure was readily available, wouldn't you want to end their suffering ?

Remember this is a hypothetical question and it's not about our personal journey-nor present circumstances...It's more along the lines of showing some compassion and being "humane"...

I see members here who are at their wits end, depressed, suicidal, would I want to prevent this kind of suffering-by nipping it in the bud so to speak ? It's a no brainer....

Just for the record I consider myself cured "I transitioned" no more dysphoria-body and mind matched up ( The cure for me was transitioning )

Metta Anatta :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •  

suzifrommd

Question: Would such a fetal "cure" doom the human race to rigid gender definitions?

We really do a service to humanity - showing them that the chasm between the genders isn't what most people think it is. That just because you're physically one sex doesn't mean you need to act the way members of that gender are expected to act.

If we weren't around, who would remind everyone of that essential flexibility?
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
  •  

Ltl89

Quote from: Anatta on April 24, 2014, 09:07:10 PM
Kia Ora LTL,

But the child would not know of the congenital changes that had taken place...Just the trials & tribulations that comes from growing up a somewhat 'normal' cis child...

The other point in your post it would seem relates to whether one sees gender as "mind (subjective experience) or matter(relates solely to the brain) "Nature or Nurture" or both ...

I gather that the neuroscience involved would involve the interaction of hormones to parts of the brain which in turn would somehow change the neuropathways of the newly forming brain...(But I'm no neuroscientist so I'm only guessing)....The whole subject of gender is just fascinating.... 

Metta Anatta :)

I don't know.  It just sounds wrong to me.  Like whatever the child was destined to have shouldn't be messed with.  That's just my opinion.  Even if it could go wrong and bad in their life, it helps form the person they are.  It makes them an individual and unique in this world.  I really believe everyone is special for some reason, and I think this experiment reduces that aspect of humanity to me by trying to force perfection. 

I think there are different causes for different people.  I think it's probably a mix of social and biological for most of us.  I've always been compelled to transition, but would I have been the same LTL (or girl) if I didn't experience life the way I did?  I doubt that.
  •  

Heather

I wouldn't support this I don't think we should tamper with nature in this way. I find that kinda thinking pretty scary to be honest. It's like saying a person can't be different and being different is a bad thing. I don't see my being trans as being a negative sure it has been difficult at times but to be honest I doubt I would be as happy as I am now had I been born the so called normal. And quite frankly I don't see the appeal in being just like everybody else. Being different is a beautiful thing and shouldn't be looked at as something that needs to be eliminated. 
  •  

MelissaVita

I don't think I would go for a "cure." The experience of tossing aside what others want and prioritizing what I want has been so empowering that I don't really even care what trials I have to endure from this point forward. I wouldn't want to influence my personality with some kind of masculinizing procedure that "fixes" everything like magic. Where's the sense of achievement in that? I want the world to learn to love me, not the version of me that I've biologically altered to fit other people's perception of how things should be.

I'm really proud of who I am and what I'm accomplishing. I like the story I'm telling with my life. Isn't that what living is all about?
  •  

MelissaVita

Besides, who's to say that the "trans" condition is really a flaw? Would it really be so bad if society were more accepting?

I think the only reason we see it as undesirable is because we live in a society that shuns it. How can we ever learn to accept what is different if we just morph everyone into more typical people?
  •  

Sephirah

This is a tough call for me to answer. Emotionally, maybe instinctively, I would want to spare a potential offspring from the pain of dysphoria. For me it's often a very jarring, very distressing, very physical thing. And I would want to spare someone else from having to feel that. But that is my protective instinct speaking, and my desire to not see anyone else in pain. The decision would probably be based on what I went through myself. A subjective one. And a misguided belief that it's the only way being transgendered has to be.

In all honesty, I don't trust myself to make such a decision free of that bias of my own experience. I don't trust myself that my desire to not see someone hurting would not override everything else. Talking about it in general is one thing, but if it were my own child, and I were actually faced with that decision... I fear that I would make a decision but it would not be the right one. Because I'm too emotional of a person. I fear I would overlook the voice in my mind which is screaming that, in a different environment, with different circumstances, this child would not have to go through what I went through. Things could be different. And, if I tried to be a good enough parent to look for, and recognise the signs that my child was not comfortable with themselves that I would be in a position to be able to help them in the way that I wasn't helped myself. To actually become themselves. To help them grow, give them the support they needed to flourish. To watch them walk their own path with pride and find themselves.

I guess my answer has to be: I'm glad I'm not having kids.
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
  •  

Anatta

Kia Ora,

Thank you all for participating...There has been some really interesting comments-with some strong arguments against...

Overall it would seem that if such a "preventative measure" were available (even a safe one based upon compassionate grounds ) most members would oppose it, fearing it would or could lead to something more sinister...

That's fair enough, we have to follow our hearts and do what we feel is right... 

And I would just like to repeat what I said earlier that I hope you will all take courage when facing the challenges ahead and try to keep in mind this simple yet profoundly true "truth" when under mental and physical pressure:

"This too shall pass!"

Even though you know this to be true, more often than not it's forgotten at time of need... So make a 'note to self' to put on the fridge door....

And Sephirah you deserve a rep for such a heartfelt answer - thank you.... 

Metta Anatta :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
  •