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Is transition necessary, why/why not?

Started by jussmoi4nao, May 04, 2014, 05:13:36 AM

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jussmoi4nao

So, this something I think a lot about, duhh, I think we all do. Let me say beforehand, I just want to have friendly discourse, here. Please no name calling, or hurt feelings. I'm sharing opinions and thoughts and looking for feedback, and I'm living this experience...and am pretty deep into it, so please don't think I'm trying to invalidate anybody here.

Please bear with me as I try to sort of...put proper words to this. I guess the way I see it is there are two sides to this..sort of concrete and abstract...sex and gender. Sex is something real and tangible and biologically determined that we can never fully change and gender is something abstract and socially created that we can change, through transition.

Transsexualism is the state of feeling like the opposite sex, likely due to some sort of hormonal exposure in utero, that caused feminization/masculanization of the brain structure. This internal mismatch could be a mild disorder that's easily ignored, were it not aggrivated by gender roles which tell us that each sex is wildly mentally different from the other and that there is something seriously wrong with our body.

At the core, our primal desire is probably to be biologically male/female...which is impossible. However, psychologically, likely starting n early childhoid, this translated into a psychological desire to be a 'man' or a 'woman' right?

I'm not sure if I'm putting this very well. But here is, I think, the key problem. Sex is real, yes. Sexes are different. And gender is a natural, primitive social reaction to these distinctions. But the problem comes in with gender *roles*...these are what cause dysphoria.

Transition, I suppose, in my view, is giving into these roles. By transitioning we validate a restrictive dichotomy so we can find a sense of internal relief...and, no, you really can't hate on anyone for that, because it's us who are most painfully affected by these distinctions. But if that's so, shouldn't *we* be the very ones advocating change, instead, seeing as we're the ones walking the line, here? Because it hurts everyone. It hurts a cismale who is told he's not 'masculine' enough and it hurts a cisfemale who is told she's beneath men because she has a vagina.

If genders weren't so distinguished from one another would transition be necessary? I'm sure thered be discomfort over feeling like we should be the opposite sex, but given the fact we can never have the internal plumbing of a biological female (or dude parts for FtMs), we could find coping mechanisms...and wouldn't that be preferable?

The way I see it, transition shouldn't be necessary, should it? I mean, yeah, it should be something we can do if we want to...but it shouldn't be something we have to feel is so necessary. And it shouldn't be so major.

The irony is that...it's the same system we validate through transition that makes transition both feel so important and be so difficult, both internally and externally.

Thoughts, opinions, etc?
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Rachel


Sexuality (for me)
I am bisexual strongly leaning to males. I am married to a female and she is my best friend. If having a male partner publicly was just fine 35 year ago then I would have been partnered with a male. So, my inability to express my desired sexual preference led me to my current sexual partner and life. I have a good life and cope with the primary desire.

Gender (for me)
I have a female brain and I fit under the umbrella where I see (with my eyes closed) a female. I feel like I am in the wrong body. HRT has saved my life, that and  a lot of therapy. I guess society sees people in binary as "normal" and when role models and leaders are promoted and rewarded being other than binary is not rewarded. I feel pressure form both sides to conform and all I want is to be me.

Personality (mine)
I tend to conform and I am growing  my personality to express who I am. Sounds simple but here is where it gets very difficult. I try to please everyone and fit in even when I please no one and do not fit in. The more I try to be me the more I do not fit in. I think personality ties sex and gender and other things together. I am expanding my definitions of sex and gender to accommodate me in my personality. 
HRT  5-28-2013
FT   11-13-2015
FFS   9-16-2016 -Spiegel
GCS 11-15-2016 - McGinn
Hair Grafts 3-20-2017 - Cooley
Voice therapy start 3-2017 - Reene Blaker
Labiaplasty 5-15-2017 - McGinn
BA 7-12-2017 - McGinn
Hair grafts 9-25-2017 Dr.Cooley
Sataloff Cricothyroid subluxation and trachea shave12-11-2017
Dr. McGinn labiaplasty, hood repair, scar removal, graph repair and bottom of  vagina finished. urethra repositioned. 4-4-2018
Dr. Sataloff Glottoplasty 5-14-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal in office procedure 10-22-2018
Dr. McGinn vaginal revision 2 4-3-2019 Bottom of vagina closed off, fat injected into the labia and urethra repositioned.
Dr. Thomas in 2020 FEMLAR
  • skype:Rachel?call
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JoanneB

"If genders weren't so distinguished from one another would transition be necessary? "
The nut I've been trying to crack for a few years now. A large part of the difficulty for me has been I built this image of what M (especially so!) and F should be. After 30 years it practically morphed into a caricature.  I therefore sort of have to conclude that My concepts of Male/Female are or were invalid.

A big part of the healing process, or dare I call it transition?, for me is bringing these two great aspects of my true self together to form one whole healthy happy person. It has been hard work but well worth it. I can present male and for the most part feel that I am being me. When I present female.... I feel genuine. Or, at the very least a lot more genuine since I am not fully transitioned. A big part of my life is cut off from the other me. Though I have achieved my life long dream of being seen as and accepted as a woman.

At work right now I am well respected, have fun, and the company rewards me for making them a lot of money. My quality of work, I believe, will remain the same if not improve if I present as Joanne. I have little doubt my personality will change significantly at this point in my transition. Yet, I know the presentation will certainly affect others and ultimately me.

I have, as well as all of us, a laundry list of reason or obstacles in the path of a full time transition that extend into all areas of life, not just "Passing". If we were all ascended masters none of these would matter. At this point in my Recovery I am happy to say that my list is far shorter than ever. The reasons left under Why Not I  still see  as very real for me and the life I want.

So Why?  Simply to feel Genuine.
.          (Pile Driver)  
                    |
                    |
                    ^
(ROCK) ---> ME <--- (HARD PLACE)
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Tysilio

Transition was/is necessary for me. I spend decades as a gender non-conforming female, out dyke, knowing that I didn't identify as a woman. But I came out as a lesbian at an early age, and was influenced enough by the feminist rhetoric around "sex roles" that I believed that I could (and worse, should) live comfortably by just "being myself." Changed careers at 40-ish to a thoroughly non-traditional occupation, had good relationships, fine friends -- and it wasn't enough: I was depressed, angry, and finally suicidal. I'm now transitioning to male, and the difference in how I feel about myself and the world is... astonishing. I'm at peace (relatively speaking -- I won't pretend it's a cure-all or that all my problems magically went away), more relaxed, more outgoing, and generally a happier and nicer person. And at home in my body, even at a very early stage of transition, in a way I've never experienced: It's become something I value and want to take care of in ways I never really have.

Who would've thunk it?
Never bring an umbrella to a coyote fight.
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alena

I don't see transition as a necessity, but a choice that each person with gender dysphoria has to carefully consider. I'm going through transtition as I've never been entirely comfortable being a male. I know I will never have the 'plumbing' that biological females have, but I want to get as close as I can in every other department. Even if gender roles between men and women were indistinguishable I'd still transition, it's just something I know I have to do if I ever want to be happy with myself.


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Edge

Gender is not the same as gender roles and, personally, I find it very insulting when people confuse the two. Maybe it's not such a big deal to anyone else, but I hate being called an idiot and, as far as I'm concerned, confusing my gender with illogical and arbitrary roles is the same as calling me an idiot.
Gender is also a biological thing. Brains are real, physical, biological organs. If I opened up your skull, I would find an actual physical brain. If I cut it open, I would find sexually dimorphic structures in the brain. There is no biological reason for gender roles, but again, gender is not the same thing.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but I am getting really tired of hearing this transphobic bs.

I am transitioning because I am a guy and I need to feel comfortable with myself. Other people and their stereotypes have nothing to do with it.
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jussmoi4nao

@Edge,

No, nooo! I didn't say that lol. I don't believe gender is the same as gender roles and I hate that tired out old argument.

I'm not sure if I worded myself correctly. What I mean to say that gender roles emphasis the separation of genders...they exist, but they're not soo different. So it's gender roles that cause dysphoria, in my view.

I believe that trans people ARE born with brains that are structured as the sex they identify with and the incongruency can cause discomfort. However, ithink a lot of the times dysphoria comes into play when strict gender roles demarcate the separation of male vs female and trigger the pyschological experience of being mismatched.

I guess that's just my view. Sorry, I don't word myself very well. I just feel like if we let everybody be themselves maybe we could accept things better. Ourselves, our bodies, our identities. I just feel like the way things are in our society are obviously bs and in a way a lot of what we do validates a stupid way of thinking.

I'm not saying people shouldn't transition in any way shape or form. But I'm saying the strict gender roles in our society make it very difficult for trans people who'd rather not to...well, not. And it shouldn't be that way.
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Frank

I spent most of my childhood and teenagedom as a boy. I was allowed to by family. When I moved back with other family and had to cope with being called female and made to dress that way, I quickly turned angry and violent. I moved back with other family, been with them ever since and got a lot calmer. So unless I want to be angry, violent, and eventually end in a very not pretty way, yes. It's necessary. It's that simple for me. I don't spend a lot of time thinking about all that other stuff.
-Frank
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Edge

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 09:45:38 AM
@Edge,

No, nooo! I didn't say that lol. I don't believe gender is the same as gender roles and I hate that tired out old argument.

I'm not sure if I worded myself correctly. What I mean to say that gender roles emphasis the separation of genders...they exist, but they're not soo different. So it's gender roles that cause dysphoria, in my view.

I believe that trans people ARE born with brains that are structured as the sex they identify with and the incongruency can cause discomfort. However, ithink a lot of the times dysphoria comes into play when strict gender roles demarcate the separation of male vs female and trigger the pyschological experience of being mismatched.

I guess that's just my view. Sorry, I don't word myself very well. I just feel like if we let everybody be themselves maybe we could accept things better. Ourselves, our bodies, our identities. I just feel like the way things are in our society are obviously bs and in a way a lot of what we do validates a stupid way of thinking.

I'm not saying people shouldn't transition in any way shape or form. But I'm saying the strict gender roles in our society make it very difficult for trans people who'd rather not to...well, not. And it shouldn't be that way.
Ah. I've got to admit, I don't understand that point of view. I understand that, for some people, that is the case for them, but it's not something I can wrap my head around.
For me the dysphoria is physical. Gender roles have nothing to do with it.
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FalseHybridPrincess

Quote from: Edge on May 04, 2014, 10:05:39 AM

For me the dysphoria is physical. Gender roles have nothing to do with it.

mostly for me too...
http://falsehybridprincess.tumblr.com/
Follow me and I ll do your dishes.

Also lets be friends on fb :D
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jussmoi4nao

I guess for me if I had my way I would have absolutely been born a cisfemale, with everything that goes with that, but that can never be. I can never have two X's ovaries or a uterus and that's...you know, something I HAVE to accept. Even if it's what I truly want it's impossible.

And transition..it's about changing your body to change your social gender. Because to me it's the roles that cause the most pain. They're the reminder that you are expected to act like something you feel you're not right? And tgats the painful part. Maybe some people can forget what they aren't and be happy with what they are if it weren't for that...cobstant twisting of the knife.

And transitions, it can't...like it has limitations. It doesn't meet the goal. It doesn't make you the desired sex. If you're lucky and work hard and dump a load of cash it gets your body as close to what you wish it was as possible. But...it's like the painting, this "This is not a pipe".

I don't see transition as something we do to be ourselves. I see it as something we have to do because we live in a society that reminds us constantly that we *aren't* who we want to be without it. It's a coping mechanism, really.
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jussmoi4nao

If you focus too much on your body, as a transperson, you'll never be happy, btw. It'll never be exactly what you want.
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FalseHybridPrincess

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 04, 2014, 10:27:35 AM
If you focus too much on your body, as a transperson, you'll never be happy, btw. It'll never be exactly what you want.

And thats what scares me the most...
http://falsehybridprincess.tumblr.com/
Follow me and I ll do your dishes.

Also lets be friends on fb :D
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jussmoi4nao

Quote from: kate on May 04, 2014, 10:40:52 AM
That's true. Though the same could be said about CIS women as well :)

Truee, but to a lesser degree. I'm talking more about your bodys makeup..anatomy and whatever. Not looks. Most humans in our society have self image problems tho, I agree
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sad panda

I don't honestly like the assumption that trans people have (or always have) the opposite sex's brain... it's never really been proven and there's no way to know, it's just an assumption people make about themselves with no real medical knowledge but they act like it's a proven fact.

That is just setting a bad standard. Cuz what happens when they become able to check, and they prove you have a cis brain? Does that mean you shouldn't be able to transition now? :x

I think it is just very loaded to say you know how your brain is structured. You do not, you only know how you feel. And who says masculine people have a natural desire to be a man? Or feminine people a woman? Or that people with a female/make brain naturally wnat a female/male body. Soooo many assumptions made that are just not proven at all. Like, some kinds of Intersex people can prove their brain is dimorphic a certain way but that only sometimes makes them want to transition from the mismatched gender .....It's a very complex thing.

The point is that, at the end of the day, people can do it because they want it and can prove it can make them happier. Being happy is the point, the why doesn't reallly matter.... there doesn't need to be a why! =o)

And i also think that there is life outside of transition even for people who are naturally like te opposite sex.. personally for me, it doesn't feel worth it, even if I can tell I have not fully developed as my cis sex.

i jdon't know... maybe i'm just tired & done with gender but, yeah. That's how i feel and it's just my personal opinion.
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xponentialshift

Abby, I agree that if there weren't gender roles, (I can't speak for all trans people, but ) I might not need to transition.
Like you I wish I had been born completely female but long ago I resigned myself to the fact that that will never be the case (in this life anyway)
I think that the portion of the trans population with severe dysphoria regarding their physical  anatomy will still need to transition. For the rest of us, I think most of the dysphoria is caused by a deprivation of gender expression. If there weren't such a big divide between social genders, then our expression of gender would be much easier.

There is one caveat to my opinion. I am fairly young and have only been experiencing dysphoria for about 10 years. Perhaps if I were to continue living as my birth gender for 10-20 more years I would understand this dysphoria better and it's possible that even with more similar gender roles, it might not be enough.

That's my 2 cents anyway.
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BunnyBee

I think we shouldn't assume everybody else is the same as ourselves.  Gender/sex variance comes in many flavors, I think.  If your dysphoria is triggered only/mostly  by gender things, or gender role things, then maybe transition is not necessary for you, or maybe it is the worst thing for you in some cases.  I don't know, because that isn't my personal experience.  For me, my body is wrong, that is the source.  Yes, gender/gender role things contribute to my dysphoria, much more so prior to actually transitioning, but it is because they remind(ed) me that this body I have is wrong.  In fact, the more in line my body becomes with my mind, the less I worry about gender or fitting into a particular role.

I don't mean I am a masculine female, but I mean, I could be, some people are, and there wouldn't be anything wrong with that.  I personally like being female, and all that comes with it, but if I do have a couple typically male traits going on, they don't really bug me anymore.  I am not changing my body to transition my role, the role transition is not the ultimate goal.  If I just wanted to be feminine and kind of hang with the girls and do girl things, then I could do that as a male no problem.  There are many guys that do this, I know several.  Well maybe they do face problems, but the problems they deal with are old people hung up on how they think things should be, not problems within themselves.
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jussmoi4nao

Quote from: sad panda on May 04, 2014, 11:42:54 AM
I don't honestly like the assumption that trans people have (or always have) the opposite sex's brain... it's never really been proven and there's no way to know, it's just an assumption people make about themselves with no real medical knowledge but they act like it's a proven fact.

That is just setting a bad standard. Cuz what happens when they become able to check, and they prove you have a cis brain? Does that mean you shouldn't be able to transition now? :x

I think it is just very loaded to say you know how your brain is structured. You do not, you only know how you feel. And who says masculine people have a natural desire to be a man? Or feminine people a woman? Or that people with a female/make brain naturally wnat a female/male body. Soooo many assumptions made that are just not proven at all. Like, some kinds of Intersex people can prove their brain is dimorphic a certain way but that only sometimes makes them want to transition from the mismatched gender .....It's a very complex thing.

The point is that, at the end of the day, people can do it because they want it and can prove it can make them happier. Being happy is the point, the why doesn't reallly matter.... there doesn't need to be a why! =o)

And i also think that there is life outside of transition even for people who are naturally like te opposite sex.. personally for me, it doesn't feel worth it, even if I can tell I have not fully developed as my cis sex.

i jdon't know... maybe i'm just tired & done with gender but, yeah. That's how i feel and it's just my personal opinion.

There's some. Something about the stria terminalis or whatever. But thereve been some tests to at least indicte that.

To me that doesn't really matter. That's more talking about the cause rather than the fact it *is*. I personally honestly couldn't care less about the cause, I was just working on that assumption for the sake of the argument.

But I do agree about that last bit. About finding the most happiness inducing outcome. But for me I've kinda come to realize there's not one for me haha. In my view of it, fundamentally, I am a male that wishes they were a full female. Maybe I could deal with that if it weren't for restrictive gender roles, but they F with my brain too much so I'm transitioning.

But really, it's only moving the problems. From something I have to deal with externally to something I fight internally. And I'm not sure which is worse at this point cuz not feeling real is pretty bad. And I'm left to wonder if finding coping mechanisms would have been preferable, in the end. But whatever.
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jussmoi4nao

And btw to be honest, if I'm talking about myself, I'm not sure exactly what causes my ->-bleeped-<-. But a large part of me thinks that for me, personally, it was mental illness or something to do with my childhood (even though it started very early). Or maybe my brain really IS feminized. Who knows. I have zero way of knowing, but it doesn't matter cuz it is and it's compliucated and stupid and it's evidently incurable.
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