Regarding responding to the experiences of marginalized persons...

[JoanneB]

I will hypothesize this. For anyone who has lived life on both sides of the aisle to NOT recognize that there are distinct differences between the two, probably have not lived at least one of those lives in the real world.

[Frank]

I probably shouldn't be responding to this but anyway. Moving on.

FA, I've been watching you for a little while now and it seems to me like you have an opinion, or story as you said, you'd like to tell and have people listen to you. Only sometimes you say something offensive (whether aware of it or not) and people get hurt and then you push and push and push.

I see this especially with the woman thing and your experience of it. You say it sucked. Of course it did, you're a man. Yes, there is sexism. But why take away the little glimmer of hope people get here? I mean they'll just go out in the real world where there's a bunch of douchewagons and reality crushers anyway. Sometimes it's nice to just hang with the girls and do girly things, that's what the place (or section rather) is for.

[V M]

You are definitely not alone in this FA

Although it would be virtually impossible for me to fully understand another person's perspective on the subject at hand (I have not lived their life)
I can empathize with you and others

I am fairly certain that many of us know what it is like to feel marginalized in some way, I know I do

I have had to cope with feeling marginalized, picked on, ridiculed, etc. with various verbal and physical abuses most of my life - Heck I've even been shot at on occasion

It didn't seem to matter where I went, home, school, church and so forth, there always seemed to be someone and/or even a group of people at the ready to pompously and disrespectfully insult, humiliate and ridicule me for whatever reason they deemed as an excuse to be abusive towards me

It still goes on, people that feel they need to buck and bunk everyone and everything while parading themselves about, nothing new about that

Just know that you are well loved and respected

Hope you get to feeling better soon

Hugs

V M

[Nero]

->-bleeped-<- it. ->-bleeped-<- it all. My best friend hates me for even bringing it up. I wish I were dead.

[Heather]

<not allowed> it. <not allowed> it all. My best friend hates me for even bringing it up. I wish I were dead.

Honestly FA/Nero it sounds like you really need to let go of your past. What's done is done let it go. Yes you was labeled a female at birth but your a man now it's time to put it behind you. Were all effected by being trans but you either put it behind you or let it tear you apart. And btw you may wish it but I most certainly don't want you dead. Your death won't solve a thing but staying and fighting this will don't let it consume you.

[RosieD]

<not allowed> it. <not allowed> it all. My best friend hates me for even bringing it up. I wish I were dead.

My best friend hasn't spoken to me since finding out I am trans.  Someone I have known since I was 7.  I decided it was time to find a new best friend as that one wasn't worth the effort, a position that is still open.  I don't wish you were dead FA, and seeing as I am older, uglier and more opinionated than you my wish trumps yours .

Rosie

[Tysilio]

I see this especially with the woman thing and your experience of it. You say it sucked. Of course it did, you're a man. Yes, there is sexism. But why take away the little glimmer of hope people get here? I mean they'll just go out in the real world where there's a bunch of douchewagons and reality crushers anyway. Sometimes it's nice to just hang with the girls and do girly things, that's what the place (or section rather) is for.

Frank, to put this as politely as I can, I think you're missing the point here. Did you read the thread that prompted FA to start this one?

I think what FA is saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that this is a way we can better show support and respect for each other. If someone shares something about their experience, it's a matter of basic courtesy to take that experience at face value, and if it doesn't conform to their own beliefs, to see that as an opportunity to learn rather than saying (or even implying) that they didn't really experience it. Telling them that they should "get over" their feelings and refrain from bringing them up (and because they're a downer for other people, no less!) is about as non-supportive as possible. If you haven't walked in their shoes, you know nothing about their blisters.

Sometimes it's nice to just hang with the girls and do girly things, that's what the place (or section rather) is for.

I sort of thought that this particular section is for all transsexuals. You may want to rethink this comment.

FA, I definitely don't wish you were dead. I've only just met you, and I kinda like you.

[Nero]

Thanks everyone.

I don't think people realize they do this. But everytime I say anything about sexism etc, there's a chorus of people going on about how it's not like that where they are/their friend's brother's sister... etc.

I don't understand the reason for doing that. And I don't want to upset anyone. But it's very difficult for me. And I really don't want to invalidate anyone or offend anybody. But when I'm talking about going through stuff as a little girl, and people who don't have that experience immediately start giving anecdotes about how it's not like that for their brother's friend's sister...
Well, it's hurtful. It feels to me like if a white person started talking about how racism wasn't a problem in their town or that their brother's girlfriend's sister is black and didn't go through that, etc.

So, I get hurt by these casual comments, and everyone hates me for being hurt.
And I don't think people realize this, but one of the parts that hurts is the kind of appropriation feeling of it. And I just don't get it. I mean, I'm not going to chime in to say it's wasn't like that for my friend's sister's brother if a trans woman is talking about growing up male. Yet people here do this all the time the second I try to talk about anything regarding women's issues.

I've been working on my past these past few months. And a lot of you have helped a lot. Believe it or not, just talking about it here has helped a lot more than the class I'm taking on it. But part of my past that I'm trying to heal involves growing up female. And all the little hurts from that. It's separate from trans stuff. And there's a lot of resentment and bitterness over that. Because I believe it is harmful to all women to grow up in a world where their kind has since the beginning of time been regarded as less. And to be basically prepped for a lesser role, a backseat role in millions of little ways growing up. No matter how subtle or unseen. Sure, things are getting better. But when I was a little girl, they weren't that great.

[sad panda]

Awwwe. Poor FA. This whole thing is breaking my heart. *hugs*

people are just caught up in themselves...

[Nero]

I see this especially with the woman thing and your experience of it. You say it sucked. Of course it did, you're a man. Yes, there is sexism. But why take away the little glimmer of hope people get here? I mean they'll just go out in the real world where there's a bunch of douchewagons and reality crushers anyway. Sometimes it's nice to just hang with the girls and do girly things, that's what the place (or section rather) is for.

Frank, to put this as politely as I can, I think you're missing the point here. Did you read the thread that prompted FA to start this one?

I think what FA is saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that this is a way we can better show support and respect for each other. If someone shares something about their experience, it's a matter of basic courtesy to take that experience at face value, and if it doesn't conform to their own beliefs, to see that as an opportunity to learn rather than saying (or even implying) that they didn't really experience it. Telling them that they should "get over" their feelings and refrain from bringing them up (and because they're a downer for other people, no less!) is about as non-supportive as possible. If you haven't walked in their shoes, you know nothing about their blisters.

Sometimes it's nice to just hang with the girls and do girly things, that's what the place (or section rather) is for.

I sort of thought that this particular section is for all transsexuals. You may want to rethink this comment.

FA, I definitely don't wish you were dead. I've only just met you, and I kinda like you.

Thanks Ty.

I think maybe one thing that might be causing misunderstanding is me talking about things with the trans women here. Well, I've been here many years, and have always gravitated to the women's side. Part of this is probably because there were very few guys here when I arrived. Like I was one of maybe 3-5 regular guy posters when I came.
And also, one reason I'm still here is because the ladies here fill a hole for me. The gaping wound of not having my sisters anymore and not having any female friends.

This is the first time that the ladies and I have been divided on something (well not all of you). And that's probably part of why I get so hurt by it. To newer people, it may look like I'm barking up the wrong tree trying to get support from the mtf side. But this is where I have always gotten support.

[Nero]

Awwwe. Poor FA. This whole thing is breaking my heart. *hugs*

people are just caught up in themselves...

Thanks sweetie.

I feel awful. I hate arguing with my friends here. I hate it so much I got drunk last night.

I also think this issue is bigger than just me. I suspect this feeling of hurt is part of what's behind some radfems being angry. Because sometimes trans women can be dismissive about this kind of thing without realizing it. I don't think anyone here has meant to be hurtful. And I feel awful because sometimes when I'm hurt, I hurt back without realizing it. But that's what been behind this when I've ended up arguing on here the past month or so - needing to heal things and feeling hurt and dismissed even if nobody intended to do so.

But again, this is a larger issue. The vast majority here either have, do, or will belong to the category of 'woman'. Even if they never identified as such but were (or are) seen by the world as belonging to that category. That is something we all have in common. Women's issues are OUR issues. We need to be able to talk about this stuff.

My experience is different to most here. And different to most cis women's. For one thing, I now have a perspective that cis women will never have. They can't see the difference like I can now. And I'm upset about it now in a way I wasn't while living as a woman. It's odd that I was actually pretty sexist in my former life to the point of being disgusted at seeing female cops and judges.  But living as male has somehow turned me feminist. Go figure. 

Anyway, Tysilio is right. Maybe some good or understanding will come of this... latest blow up from me. We can support each other better by not being dismissive. I mean, if someone is talking about stuff that bothers them, stuff they went through - and you don't have a dog in the fight - Support their dog.

[BunnyBee]

I just.. don't ..  understand some of the reactons here..

I feel terrible for you and am sorry this is happening.  i don't see how there can even be an excuse.

[LordKAT]

I remember where you once said something about "being stuffed in a dress". It wasn't my experience but that doesn't mean your experience wasn't real. I better understood how you felt because you shared. I hope you continue to share your experiences as I have learnt from them and from others.

You can't teach if you die.

[Nero]

I just.. don't ..  understand some of the reactons here..

I feel terrible for you and am sorry this is happening.  i don't see how there can even be an excuse.

Thanks sweetie.

I think a good step would be people realizing that just because they don't see something doesn't mean it's not happening. I don't think many women talk about sexism on a daily basis. Or many people for that matter. So just because you didn't see little girls getting marginalized doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just because your sister/mother/daughter/wife/ friend seems ok and has a good life doesn't mean she doesn't experience what I'm talking about. Most people don't talk about this stuff.

And if you see or know a woman who's very successful and doesn't seem to have any of these problems - think about how that is more a credit to the woman in question than an indication these things aren't real. I can almost guarantee that woman has had to fight twice as hard to get where she is than she would if she were a man.

Anyway, I see a lot of these kinds of anecdotes. And it's kind of like somebody saying racism is no longer a problem. 'Racism? What do you mean? I mean, we've got Obama!'

[Tysilio]

I've been here many years, and have always gravitated to the women's side. Part of this is probably because there were very few guys here when I arrived. Like I was one of maybe 3-5 regular guy posters when I came.

It makes sense to me. One of the things I really like about this forum is that it's not segregated -- I've noticed (hard not to) that there are way more ladies than guys here, but it's great that folks jump in and talk to each other regardless of how (or whether) they identify. It's nice not to feel constrained to post only in the ftm forums.

I've learned that it's a good thing for me to engage with people who aren't just like me, and I've made some really surprising friendships online. There's so much divisiveness in meatspace -- the less it's replicated here, the better.

[Jess42]

<not allowed> it. <not allowed> it all. My best friend hates me for even bringing it up. I wish I were dead.

I don't hon. I would definately miss you if you were gone.

But I do sort of know what you are talking about because I felt I had my butt chewed on here a while back because I don't have the time to start a group in my area by someone that thought that I should. Yeah it kind of hurt, made me feel about an inch tall and actually brought tears to my eyes because to me it felt like the person thought I was talking the talk but not walking the walk. It made me feel invalidated about myself even. Yes my feelings were hurt but I just really don't get mad anymore and calmy felt I had to respond to what my hectic life was like at the time. I think the thread just died out after that.

People are different, experiences are unique and no two of us are the same or have the exact same experience. All of our experiences in my opinion are valid and all experiences can be learned from, hopefully.

[Nero]

I remember where you once said something about "being stuffed in a dress". It wasn't my experience but that doesn't mean your experience wasn't real. I better understood how you felt because you shared. I hope you continue to share your experiences as I have learnt from them and from others.

You can't teach if you die.

Thanks KAT. 

In some ways, my experience was different from others here. Maybe a little more extreme. I mean, my folks never pushed or pressured me and always defended me as a kid. But I did have to wear a dress every Sunday. And a skirt in private school. It was hell. Not their fault. They just needed me to conform to the rules. But as soon as I put on that dress, my identity disappeared. I became very quiet and shy the whole time I was wearing the dress or skirt. Humiliated.

I also ended up in a hospital where they tried so hard to get me to act like a girl. Pretty hilarious actually. Not at the time though. 

[Nero]

<not allowed> it. <not allowed> it all. My best friend hates me for even bringing it up. I wish I were dead.

I don't hon. I would definately miss you if you were gone.

But I do sort of know what you are talking about because I felt I had my butt chewed on here a while back because I don't have the time to start a group in my area by someone that thought that I should. Yeah it kind of hurt, made me feel about an inch tall and actually brought tears to my eyes because to me it felt like the person thought I was talking the talk but not walking the walk. It made me feel invalidated about myself even. Yes my feelings were hurt but I just really don't get mad anymore and calmy felt I had to respond to what my hectic life was like at the time. I think the thread just died out after that.

People are different, experiences are unique and no two of us are the same or have the exact same experience. All of our experiences in my opinion are valid and all experiences can be learned from, hopefully.

Aww sorry about that hon. Glad you're still here hon.


I just want to clarify that this thread is more of a general rant than over any specific incident. It's more like an accumulation of incidents.

[Dee Marshall]

FA, I don't think it's so much that we don't believe what you're saying so much as many of us are afraid to. We're semi-willingly moving from a place of privilege to a marginalized group within a marginalized group.

We see those punji sticks at the bottom of the pit, yet we have no choice but to hurl ourselves over the precipice. Is it any wonder we can't bear to look?

You've climbed out and you're frantically trying to warn us. I really appreciate that but I'm already in the air. I do appreciate that you'll still be there to help me when I hit, and I'm sure your warnings will be of benefit with dealing when I get there.

We all do, collectively, need to dig out those damned stakes!

[Nero]

I think a big issue is that some of those things that made you and other assigned females feel objectified, used and marginalized can actually be a little validating for MFT at times. So yes, it will tend to be seen differently by them and though they may not mean to, their acceptance and at times even welcoming of it may well feel invalidating to you and others. Let's face it, we're very much different groups of people under the same umbrella here. There are going to be these issues of conflict between mtf, ftm and even the non-gender, androgynes and the rest of the crowd seeking shelter under the umbrella. The best that can really hoped for would be an understanding that discussion be gentle, not accusational towards groups of people.


Anyway, I had put myself up for deletion, but wanted to say that one thing and now I am out. I can't deal with this stuff and other stuff currently going on in my life and since its a lot harder to escape my real life...

Sorry, just saw this. When I'm upset, I don't think I explain things very well. I'm not meaning to be accusatory toward anyone.

I can see what you mean about the validation bit. I've even heard cis females who aren't seen as conventionally attractive mention this kind of thing. That in a disturbing way, being catcalled seems to validate their womanhood at the same time they recognize it as not something good.

Anyway, I hate that I've upset you. I hope you won't leave on account of me. 

Anyway, to the newer people here - I'm not normally like this. I've finally realized that I need to heal my past to move on. I've gotten through a lot of it on my own. And despite the controversy, the recent discussions surrounding society's expectations that women be beautiful and not age have really helped me. I am finally able to see that for the bs it is. I don't think I could have done that on my own. I've finally got an appointment with a therapist. But I doubt they can do what you all do here. One voice is great. But the multitude of voices and perspectives here have helped me more than anything else has in years.

I guess what I'm trying to get through right now is the damage done by growing up female and living as female. Not that growing up male isn't damaging. I'm sure it is. But in a different way.

I feel like I came into this world with so much promise. I was early to do everything, one of those 'smart girls'. And then I got crushed by transness and femaleness. Under the bulldozer of sexism and gender. I'm trying now to pick the remnants of that child flower run over by the bulldozer. To see if there's anything left. And if I can put it back together if there is.