Susan's Place Logo

News:

According to Google Analytics 25,259,719 users made visits accounting for 140,758,117 Pageviews since December 2006

Main Menu

how can something be said to exist?

Started by katia, June 20, 2007, 06:17:06 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

katia

if it does not have properties, location [space], or existence in time?

to me it seems almost inconceivable [definitely mind-boggling]; but it has been proven that something can exist without those.  [for right now, the only "somethings" we know about like this, is in the quantum realm]

i'm not sure where thoughts and ideas would fit into this.
  •  

The Middle Way

Speaking of pure thought, if I said: pure space, what would your conception be?

Does 'no existence in time' mean outside of time, as if a thing (which would have to have an absolutely essential existence, IE: be fundamental, not contingent) stood apart from what you normally refer to AS existing?

EG: time 'exists' only as a convention, to measure itself. Does time have this fundamentality I just spoke of? I think... not[a/b]


At the quantum level, it has been shown that your basic stuff cannot be seen to have anything other than a probability of location, which I think is partially at the root of your enquiry.

Also, the so-called 'new double-slit experiment' has shown:

Regardless of whether it is an electron, a proton, or something else on that scale, where it will arrive at the screen is highly determinate (in that quantum mechanics predicts accurately the probability that it will arrive at any point on the screen) but in what sequence members of a series of singly emitted things (e.g., electrons) will arrive is completely unpredictable. The experimental facts are so highly reproducible that there is virtually no argument about them, but the appearance of there being an uncaused event (because of the unpredictability of the sequencing) has aroused a great deal of cognitive dissonance and attempts to account for the sequencing by reference to supposed "additional variables".

I love <supposed "additional variables">.

Begs the whole question of "what is reality".

NOTA

PS: I am not sure where thoughts and ideas fit in to it either.  :D
  •  

Jonie

Maybe they are interdimential and not subject to the laws of physics
I heard someone in a movie say, "there is no love, only proof of love."
Maybe these things are alike in this way.
  •  

NatalieC

If you can percieve it it exists. They say perception shapes your reality. I say your reality shapes your perception! You need a witness to existance though! Thats why I saw a UFO and nobody believes me.
  •  

Elizabeth

I have heard this argument taken even farther to say that the universe only exists in our minds. We have all these different sensory perceptions, touch, taste, smell, to see, to hear. But in the end that information is all processed in our mind. Our mind interprets it. And what we end up with is our perception of the Universe. However, just because we perceive it, does not mean it really exists. Indeed it may only exist in our minds. In this way, one could say everything only exists in our mind, as far as we are concerned.

Love always,
Elizabeth
  •  

Cindi Jones

You are all just my dream of reality.  ;)

Cindi
Author of Squirrel Cage
  •  

Butterfly

As one of my secondary school teachers said long ago, the first thing to ask is, what is your frame of reference?

In other words, how do you define exist?

Existence can be one of those words that just circles around and get you nowhere. That which exists, is. If something possesses being, it exists.

So what is being?

Dictionary.com doesn't help, because it defines "exist" as "to have actual being; be" and "be" as "to exist." Which sounds circular to me.

But the frame of reference is the key. That which exists, in my view, relative to our anthropomorphic perspective, is that which, yes, occupies, space and time.

But is there an afterlife? Is there a God? If so, do either exist in that they occupy space and time? No, certainly. Either lies (if it exists) in a spiritual realm.

Let us say, for arguments sake, that God exists and s/he is spiritual. God is. God possesses being. But God exists quite outside of the realm discernible with the five senses with which humankind are blessed.

So the frame of reference for space and time is human sense. Beyond that which we can sense, we cannot know with any degree of certainty what exists. But we can conceive of the possibility of existence of something, like God, souls, heaven, with our mind.

The brain is something tangible; the mind is spiritual. Indeed, I am among those who believe that the spiritual aspect of our nature is represented by the mind. Our minds can take the leap of faith (a necessary thing) to believe in the existence of something invisible, spiritual, occupying no space and time, but its quite difficult because, as humans, all we have to work with is what we see, hear, smell, taste and feel.

Certainly its mind-boggling, but our puny little minds can take a crack at it and imagine that something beyond our ability to comprehend can nonetheless really exist.
  •  

The Middle Way

Quote from: Butterfly on July 04, 2007, 01:39:43 AM
As one of my secondary school teachers said long ago, the first thing to ask is, what is your frame of reference?

In other words, how do you define exist?

Existence can be one of those words that just circles around and get you nowhere. That which exists, is. If something possesses being, it exists.

So what is being?

Dictionary.com doesn't help, because it defines "exist" as "to have actual being; be" and "be" as "to exist." Which sounds circular to me.

But the frame of reference is the key. That which exists, in my view, relative to our anthropomorphic perspective, is that which, yes, occupies, space and time.

But is there an afterlife? Is there a God? If so, do either exist in that they occupy space and time? No, certainly. Either lies (if it exists) in a spiritual realm.

[...]

The brain is something tangible; the mind is spiritual. Indeed, I am among those who believe that the spiritual aspect of our nature is represented by the mind.

Thoughtul post.

If 'the spirit' is represented by 'the mind', is it not 'the mind'? Why would there be a split? If 'the mind' can be shown to represent, at some level, 'the brain', which can be shown to be tangible, are these three still extricable from one another?




Quote from: Cindi Jones on July 04, 2007, 01:06:55 AM
You are all just my dream of reality.  ;)

Cindi

and yes, we are all just Cindi's dream of reality, just as she is only ours; same difference.

N
  •