T or Not?

[Confusion]

I'm non-binary, I got top surgery a few years ago and figured that would be enough. There are enough effects of T I'm not sold on, combined wiht the cost and pain of injections, that it just wasn't an option.

I've been in a rough patch, though. We have a toddler and it's really thrown me for a loop. I do not want to be "mom", but as I am, I'm worried about our kid getting crap for having such a clearly "female" dad. I also feel like my gender is completely erased by the fact I've given birth, a lot of people started reverting to female pronouns afterwards even after being good about it for years. I also think that the combination of my masculine name (I can not find a neutral one that fits, I've tried desperately) and feminine voice/appearance is keeping me from getting a job. The biggest example that's making me worried: the Director of Talent at a place told me she thought I'd be a really good fit for a position, then the phone interviewer was confused when I answered the phone and said who I was, cut the interview short, and I swiftly got a "We regret to inform you...". Maybe I just bombed the interview, but it's still pretty suspicious.

I've been playing with changing my name, but I really don't want to. There's no name that fits. I've spent years getting crap for my name but I just can't find an alternative that I'm comfortable with.

Then, today my partner asked me if I can get the sex on my birth certificate changed soon and... it's thrown me for a loop. The reason they asked is because they don't want my ILs to know I'm legally female (it's complicated) because they're some of the offenders of misgendering me since the baby. Obviously that's not possible, but, just, it's so darn complicated.

There's a lot of legal reasons not to go on T or legally transition, and social ones to do so, and I just don't know what to do. Top surgery was so easy- I knew exactly what I needed my body to be, forget anyone who had a problem with it. But the effects of T, for me, are more social and so it's complicated. I hate that it's complicated, it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be hard for people to just accept trans folk as we are, but that's not the world we live in.

[mandonlym]

I'm MtF so not totally qualified to deal with FtM specific issues, but for myself I struggled with this and SRS, since I actually didn't feel dysmorprhia about my body parts, but was mainly doing it for safety and so as not to be seen as a fetish object. Over time, I've fully adjusted to having a vagina and am happy I made the decision.

So if I were in your position, I wouldn't necessarily totally discount social pressure, but I also wouldn't discount your instincts. If for you T is something you actively don't want, then I wouldn't do it for social reasons. But if it's something you're neutral about, I think social reasons are valid ones for deciding to tip the scale towards doing it.

[Arch]

Well, I hate to play the broken record, but have you talked to a therapist, preferably an expert on gender issues?

Another alternative is to try a very low dose of T and stop when you feel you've masculinized enough, but it sounds as if YOU are happy with where you are but OTHERS don't respect that or understand it. Still, what if you stopped after getting decent vocal changes? Would you be comfortable with that?

I should point out that in the U.S. at least, T is extremely cheap, and I rarely have a painful injection. I imagine that subcutaneous shots are even less problematic.

Your giving birth will inevitably confuse people. I have a trans friend I'm extremely fond of, but he has absolutely no respect for Thomas Beatie because of the childbirth thing. A lot of trans men feel that way. If we can't even support our own, how can we expect non-trans people to support us? It's a nasty problem.

Keep coming back to the site. It's a good place to talk things out. We also have a non-transitioning board that might be helpful to you. ETA: Looks like you found that board. Good.

[Confusion]

I'm MtF so not totally qualified to deal with FtM specific issues, but for myself I struggled with this and SRS, since I actually didn't feel dysmorprhia about my body parts, but was mainly doing it for safety and so as not to be seen as a fetish object. Over time, I've fully adjusted to having a vagina and am happy I made the decision.

So if I were in your position, I wouldn't necessarily totally discount social pressure, but I also wouldn't discount your instincts. If for you T is something you actively don't want, then I wouldn't do it for social reasons. But if it's something you're neutral about, I think social reasons are valid ones for deciding to tip the scale towards doing it.

The thing is, I'm not going to be getting any bottom surgeries for years if ever. We're not done having kids, so I'd be in a legal limbo- M on my passport and ID, F on my birth certificate. Which is a concern. I know trans folk do it plenty of times, though. I also don't know what the legality of our marriage would be, and I'm concerned about having trouble proving I'm my child's parent. So the legal reasons not to are substantial as well.

Well, I hate to play the broken record, but have you talked to a therapist, preferably an expert on gender issues?

Another alternative is to try a very low dose of T and stop when you feel you've masculinized enough, but it sounds as if YOU are happy with where you are but OTHERS don't respect that or understand it. Still, what if you stopped after getting decent vocal changes? Would you be comfortable with that?

I should point out that in the U.S. at least, T is extremely cheap, and I rarely have a painful injection. I imagine that subcutaneous shots are even less problematic.

Your giving birth will inevitably confuse people. I have a trans friend I'm extremely fond of, but he has absolutely no respect for Thomas Beatie because of the childbirth thing. A lot of trans men feel that way. If we can't even support our own, how can we expect non-trans people to support us? It's a nasty problem.

Keep coming back to the site. It's a good place to talk things out. We also have a non-transitioning board that might be helpful to you. ETA: Looks like you found that board. Good.

You mean like the one who lied to me about when he'd give the greenlight for my surgery and was so uninterested in helping me that when I expressed concerns that I was starting to get the desire to self harm, he just said "well, don't" and refused to discuss it further?

Or possibly the one who told me that non-binary people don't exist so I needed to figure out whether I was a man or a woman and get over myself?

Or the one who claimed to be an LGBT specialist, and who I was referred to specifically for trans issues, but new jack@#$@ about trans stuff?

Or the one who told me that if I wanted to get top surgery, I'd better not say I identify as anything other than male or else she couldn't write me the letter- basically telling me that I had to lie. (which hopefully will be fixed with the new DSM update- but I'm not holding my breath)

Gender "experts" do not understand non-binary issues. They're barely decent with binary trans issues.

[mandonlym]

Yeah, it's funny. My therapist pretty much ignored my non-binary leanings in everything he wrote simply because I presented convincingly as female so I was allowed to transition on that basis. Overall he was a really good guy though... going to the Philadelphia Trans Health Conference in June and hoping to get better ideas for a lot of this stuff. I feel like non-binary is becoming much more common among a younger generation of trans people.

[Arch]

Gender "experts" do not understand non-binary issues. They're barely decent with binary trans issues.

Believe me, I've had my share of crappy therapists. I get it. But you are painting them all with the same brush. I see a therapist who has a better grasp of non-binary than I do. He is very much a do-what-makes-YOU-happy kind of guy. Top surgery and no hormones? Sure, why not. No surgery and no hormones? Whatever floats your boat. Both male and female? Neither? Something else? More power to you.

He can't be the only one. But if you have exhausted the pool of gender/LGBT therapists in your immediate area, all the more reason to hang out at Susan's. Talk away. We'll be here.

[Ms Grace]

That's a pretty cool therapist. The counsellor I see at the Gender Centre in Sydney would be much the same. Shame though that as a counsellor he isn't able to refer for HRT or SRS. I need to see a shrink for that stuff. Hoops!

[Confusion]

Believe me, I've had my share of crappy therapists. I get it. But you are painting them all with the same brush. I see a therapist who has a better grasp of non-binary than I do. He is very much a do-what-makes-YOU-happy kind of guy. Top surgery and no hormones? Sure, why not. No surgery and no hormones? Whatever floats your boat. Both male and female? Neither? Something else? More power to you.

He can't be the only one. But if you have exhausted the pool of gender/LGBT therapists in your immediate area, all the more reason to hang out at Susan's. Talk away. We'll be here.

I base what I said that on the fact that you are the FIRST person I have ever seen in 7 years that had a non-binary positive gender therapist. (non-gender therapists actually tend to be better, but they can't prescribe anything) Painting everyone with the same brush when, in your experience, everyone fits under that brush, is pretty reasonable.

I've exhausted them in two immediate areas. I know a lot of people who have as well in their areas. Good for you that you got lucky- but that's just it, you got lucky. You should acknowledge that when advising people to talk to a therapist, especially non-binary people. It's really irresponsible to just say "go talk to a gender expert" without saying "But make sure you spend the time to find one that can actually handle non-binary issues, sadly not all can".

Especially because this stuff isn't always covered by insurance, so you're advising people to spend hundreds of dollars they may not be able to afford on therapy that may do them no good or even may do them harm.

[mandonlym]

My therapist was non-binary friendly too, though to be fair, it being easy for me to be perceived as female, coming from a privileged educational background, etc. may have played a role in him pretty much letting me take the lead in terms of transition.

[ativan]

This thread is derailed, but this is an issue that comes up a lot.
It is easy to say go see a gender therapist.
It is hard to find one.
You might not have one in your area.

Like some here, I've been lucky with therapists and I've had my share of not so good ones also.
It was in those first few that I realized when shopping around, you can take them out for a test drive, so to speak.
Do background work on them, find out what others say whenever possible.
Then schedule a short time to see them, to see if they connect with you.
You can pretty much do that in the first ten minutes. I give them about five myself, but give them the room to present themselves just the same.
It's not much different than being introduced to someone and deciding if they are a potential friend or not.
You connect or you don't. But that doesn't necessarily rule them out.
They may be the best you'll find in your area. They aren't all knowing, some are pretty new to the concept on non-binary.
I've had one who ended up learning more, but also allowed me to find myself in the process.
You might have to put them on the learning curve, but it's not that different than the curve they go through to get to know you.
And that's where it counts. They need to want to know you, not just be a therapist with stock answers.

I also see a psychologist, I have one more appointment and then I'm going to be seeing another one after that.
This is where I got very lucky, they are all faculty at the university in a dept that specializes in Trans and a few other things.
But my current therapist is fairly new, doesn't have a lot of experience, and is learning more as we go.
She's very open minded and listens without judgement. That's critical, it's very important.
She is in a LGBT center, and again, I got lucky.
But like the last two I've had, I interviewed them first. I knew she was going to be the one.
I have my own list of questions about what is important to me.
She answered them and then asked me questions based on those that gave her.
That's the kind of interaction you should be looking for.
Finding a true expert in non-binary is limited to a handful around the US and I suppose it's the same in other countries, as well.
Non-binary just might be something you have to teach them as you go, but it's also pretty revealing in the things about you that are important.
That's when you want a therapist who is willing to learn about you and support you.
They don't have to be a know it all, because there are none. Their knowledge is based on some books and articles.
But their true worth is in knowing you, and wanting to help you as an individual. They always learn this way.

You have to be able to trust them enough to be able to freely talk about yourself, your problems and your achievements.
They need to know you.
Sometimes I read peoples stuff about how bad a therapist was, but it usually came down to not being able to open up to them.
Don't waste money on scheduling an appointment for a session, make an appointment that's short and it's usually free, to get to know each other first.

They can't be painted with the same brushstroke anymore than all of us here can be.
They are as unique as we are. it takes some work to find that one you'll keep.
They are out there, but you need to be open, honest and fair with them, right from the start.

There are going to be places that you won't find one. You might have to travel to find the right one.
You have to decide if that is important enough for you to do.
I know some of us just don't have the means to.
But Arch is right about the people right here. I learn a lot just by reading posts and even more if we discuss things.
It means as much as my therapist and in some ways even more so. These are the people who are like me in so many different ways.
In ways my therapist just won't ever be. She's not non-binary. But she's learning...

Yep, some of us do get lucky,.. and I do consider myself lucky, but I had to put the effort into it to find that one I feel lucky to have.
I'm also pretty lucky to have met some really nice people right here who know and understand what it is to be who I am,.. non-binary.
This part of the forum is pretty understanding and laid back most of the time.
It's as good as you want it to be. If you put the effort into it that it takes to get something in return.
It really takes very little here and people aren't too critical about questions others have.
We all are learning as we go too. You're important here, just like everyone else is. That counts for a lot.
Ativan

[Arch]

Confusion, let me address a few of your points. First, it seems reasonable to me to assume that if a lot of therapists specialize in trans* therapy, some of them might be savvy about non-binary people. After half a dozen, I might very well stop looking, but I would not necessarily assume that every single one of the others was incompetent with non-binaries.

Second, you say that it's irresponsible to recommend a gender specialist without telling people that they need to vet these therapists and find one that can actually handle their problems. Um, why is that irresponsible? I think it would be irresponsible for the client to simply assume that any old therapist will be right for him or her. Experts all over the place recommend that you evaluate your therapist and make sure that he or she meets your needs, whether your issue is depression or divorce or whatever. Why would gender therapy be any different? In addition, people look for ratings and recommendations for plumbers and restaurants; why in the world would they simply assume that just any therapist would be perfect for them?

Third, I did not actually recommend that you see a therapist; I didn't know your history, so I simply asked whether you HAD seen a therapist. A simple, "No, I've tried a bunch, with no luck, and I'm giving up" would have sufficed. Instead, you reacted with a certain amount of hostility and put words in my mouth. To be honest, I don't appreciate it. I understand it all too well, but I do not appreciate it.

Fourth, even if I had actually recommended therapy to you, I would not have automatically assumed that you would seek out a private therapist and pay full price or close to full price, especially if you had at some point mentioned that money was an obstacle. When people here have mentioned that they are looking for therapy alternatives but don't have insurance, I have often recommended that these folks look for low-cost alternatives such as the local LGBT center (if there is one and if it offers cheap therapy) and special programs for low-income people. For example, my uninsured friend went through some kind of county program and paid a one-time fee of something like thirty dollars for a year's access. It wasn't the Ritz, but he was able to see a therapist.

Finally, if you had already tried MANY therapists and gotten nowhere, you might have said something in your first post so that other people wouldn't waste time asking you whether you had tried therapy (or even recommending it, as some people here will do). If you want help from other people and have already tried the obvious, then it's helpful if you say so.

When I do screw up, I tend to own it. Please don't put words in my mouth, and please don't take me to task for things I didn't say. As I mentioned earlier, we are here to help--that's what the site is here for--but you are far less likely to get support if you lash out at people for no valid reason.

[Arch]

I don't think he was having a go at you Arch,

I think they were because they repeatedly quoted me back at myself and replied directly to me, with open hostility. I understand your impulse to intervene and read the situation creatively, but, honestly, I don't know any other way to interpret what has happened here.

Like many other people here, I am eager to help when someone is in obvious distress. But not when I am repeatedly smacked around for no good reason. I'm done with this thread.

[ativan]

I hate that it's complicated, it shouldn't be, it shouldn't be hard for people to just accept trans folk as we are, but that's not the world we live in.

Confusion, it is complicated. Complicated for others and they seem to be making it complicated for you.
For many non-binaries, this is pretty much the issue, the main one out of many that come up.
Although I don't know, but after reading this thread a couple times, there is something that stands out, at least to me.
You found a comfortable place to be, one that you could deal with.
Which is pretty much all anyone can ask for or strive to be.
Now the situation around you has changed and it's forcing you to feel like you have to choose to change your place in the world.
Your situation has changed and so those around you and society have expectations that just don't fit with your views that you've been comfortable with.
I'm guessing here, but that's kinda what I'm taking from what you've written.
That's a pretty stressed place to be for anyone.
You found the line, so to speak, that you are the most comfortable being at, but now others no longer see that.
You feel like you're being forced to move to one side of it or the other?
If that's what it comes down to, maybe broaden that line a little to better accommodate those people, it is the world we live in, you're right.
It's not the solution, not the best one maybe, but sometimes there isn't a best one, just the one we need to take.
If some things are more important than others, try to keep those as much as you can, but you might have to give a little to do that.
I know that can feel like giving in to others demands, and it is, but to broaden your definition of who you are, might be all you need to do.
Just how you do that, I can't answer that, I don't know enough about you and your situation to give you a direct answer.
You've accomplished a lot it sounds like and were in a comfortable place for some time.
But the situation has changed and you might have to do some give and take.
Give a little on some things, take on others. You do not have to take what you don't want from others.
But instead give a little and then demand the same in return.
Figure out what is the more important things to you, and which are the ones that you are willing to change in the way that you feel is best.
Difficult choices to make, but it sounds like you're going to have to if you want things to run smoothly for you again.
Society doesn't allow for us as much as they could, in some cases not at all.
The choices can come down to an attitude of don't care, screw them, if they don't like it that's their problem.
On the other hand, if you have to or want to avoid the backlash of those decisions, you might have to give in or change what you can.
This doesn't mean you have to do everything to keep everyone happy, just do as little as you need to to be comfortable again.
Maybe rearrange your priorities if you can and then adjust the ones that you are willing to.
It's rarely easy for non-binaries, you never really know who is your friend or foe, society still has some hangups about us.
Much of the time we are spending to much of it sidestepping the obstacles they put in front of us.
Sometimes we have to redefine our goals as our situations change. But that's true for anyone, regardless of gender.
It just really sucks when a persons gender becomes others focus on yourself. It shouldn't be, no matter who you are.
Maybe some of the non-binaries here who lean the way you do and come from a background similar to yours can be of more help.
I'm sure there are a few who have better insight into this than me. Lets forget the therapist stuff and move on with your original comments.
Don't let the thread drift throw you off, it happens here. If you want to just have a place to throw down your thoughts, it's fine.
Sometimes the only answer is to do just that.
Make the comments and look for the answers in yourself and take what you need from others comments and leave the rest of their answers.
It can be difficult to sort through them, to sort through your own answers.
But I think the more you can define them here, the better the answers or suggestions you'll find.
I don't think this thread is over for you. If you want, it's just starting.
Ativan

[Bimmer Guy]

I've exhausted them in two immediate areas. I know a lot of people who have as well in their areas. Good for you that you got lucky- but that's just it, you got lucky. You should acknowledge that when advising people to talk to a therapist, especially non-binary people. It's really irresponsible to just say "go talk to a gender expert" without saying "But make sure you spend the time to find one that can actually handle non-binary issues, sadly not all can".

Especially because this stuff isn't always covered by insurance, so you're advising people to spend hundreds of dollars they may not be able to afford on therapy that may do them no good or even may do them harm.

I would suggest finding a gender therapist from www.WPATH.org.  Their Standards of Care accept and respect non-binary individuals, including surgeries, so you will be on the right path with one of these folks.  If you cannot find one in your general area, I would call someone on the list closest to you and see who they reccommend.  I am sorry that you had bad eperiences with "gender therapists", as I have never heard a self described "gender therapist" in the U.S. in recent years have issues with non-binary people.  I would VERY much doubt that you will find that from someone from the provider list above.  I doubt many people would pay $200 per year to be a part of a group whose beliefs about the gender variant population they didn't agree with.

[femaletome]

I guess if I had any advice, first I would say I know how it feels to not know exactly what to do regarding T or not -  I'm in the process of starting (probably very soon) but even now I do still sometimes feel ambivalent about it.

With that said, I think what the other comments recommened about therapy is always a good option.  However if it's not something you are looking to do but you do want to move forward with T, there are clinics and doctors that will start you on hormones using informed consent.  I'm doing that now in fact - the one thing I guess I would caution about that though is its a huge step and a life changing decision, and in some ways I feel that because I did informed consent the process was actually rushed.  Contrary to the many stories I hear about folks struggling to access hormones, I felt like I was just given permission to start without a bat of the eye.  Kinda crazy.

Anyways, the last thing I would say is if you are considering transition for reasons of others rather than yourself, it might be best to take a moment and think about what it is that YOU want for YOUR body and life.  This transition will affect others yes, but ultimately affect you the most as you will be changing your body.  It's always a good idea to take your time, don't rush, and do what feels comfortable for you, now what you feel you should do for anyone else.  I hope this helps a little bit