Can you be female if you dont act like it?

[Karla B]

This is an interesting topic! Times have been changing for years.
Today there are women Fighter pilots dropping bombs, women hockey players, women race car drivers and so on.
The gym I go to has a few women body builders that are pretty large. A couple of times a year I go on a fishing trip with some of my friends, There in boats ,with guys or a few of them together are women fishing ,just like the rest of us and having a great time.
I like getting pampered at a day spa,getting facials,body treatments, pedicures and manicures. I like to cook,I like to shop, I like to watch some sports, hockey, baseball, tennis and YES, figure skating.
So what is acting masculin or feminine? Other than sitting with your legs crossed and talking with a limp wrist or walking sort of bull legged and sitting with the legs spread.
Older people don't seem to accept that the borders between the sexes are disappearing. This day and age even men get their hair dyed, have waxing done and are being MR. moms.
I think, because of the changes we're going through, we seem to be more self conscious about this subject. Thinking " Am I acting or behaving the right way to pass in society? Society has its image of the way boys and girls should act and behave, but the truth is, it's really a load of bull! The days where all the girls sit together in one room and the boys in the other, will be and are seeing their final days!
 

[Berliegh]

I've seen many people after they have had GRS in the U.K and they act and sound just like men, have no feminine traits, mannerisms or persona.....it's very weird and hard to understand.....This is not anything to do with hobbies or pastimes but their overall projection is that they are a man.

[melissa90299]

Gina,

I have met a couple people like that and they puzzle me, there is a definite way that women comunicate, even butch women, that is entirely different from the male species.

Again, the Buddha teaches me not to judge, but those types sure test my Buddhist teachings.

[melissa90299]

The Buddha taught that men lead unpure lives were punished by being given female bodies in their next life. That is no longer the belief. I don't know how many transwoman the Buddha met, proabably quite a few.

=================================

I have to concur with Gina vis vis her experience  with other transwomen, I sm wondering though...most transwomen I have met are the ones who go to support groups on a regualr basis, quite frankly many of those impress me as CDs even though they ID as trans. If you guys attended so many women only recovery meetings as I did, as well as mixed groups, you would see how differently the sexes communicate although that was obvious to me all my life but only truly validated recently. I have an even harder time understanding men than GGs do but I guess that is natural as they have spent their whole lives relating to men as women.

[melissa90299]

The Buddha taught that men lead unpure lives were punished by being given female bodies in their next life. That is no longer the belief. I don't know how many transwoman the Buddha met, proabably quite a few.

i appear to have transgressed in a past life and have been given the Buddha's body as punishment.

Which form?

Posted on: July 25, 2007, 11:00:52 PM

Know what you call a girl whos not girly yet not a tomboy.... Athletic...
Im in a punkrock band and I play the drums......  yeah really girly...

i played guitar in a punk band.


chick bands are hot!

I think the main thing that held me back from being a success in music was dealing with male musicians. Working with women musicians is so much easier, it is so damn hard to find good female bassists and drummers though.

[Berliegh]

I think the main thing that held me back from being a success in music was dealing with male musicians. Working with women musicians is so much easier, it is so damn hard to find good female bassists and drummers though.

I experienced some of that as well......especially towards the end. We had an album and deal and the guys were gradually cutting me out.

[Lxxy]

I'm one that subscribes to gender being much more cultural than innate, even if someone who is female has some different qualities than their male counterparts.

So, in one statement: yes, you can be female and not be 'feminine.'

What is feminine? Go from cultures around the world, and many will give you different answers through their culture and tradition.

Personally, when I first came out, I plunged in deep. As I got older, I peeled away the layers of facade and have begun to re-emerge as a normal chick again. Not barbie perfect, not cosmo material by any means. But deep down, who really is? I like being girly, feeling pretty, and all that jazz.

But its just skin deep.

xx

lxxy

[Erin]

I haven't read any of the replies yet (though I will) because I already knew my answer.  YES YOU CAN!!  I know PLENTY of true-to-life females who don't act feminine at all.  Some are hetero;  Some are bi;  Some are lesbian.  As well, I know a few males who are JUST AS feminine as the girliest of girls.  Femininity and masculinity are both mental states.  Mental states do NOT have to "coincide" with physical states.  As a human, you have the right AND the means to be whoever you want to be emotionally, physically, and mentally.  Simply put, be what is most comfortable for you and you will find the most comfort.

[deviousxen]

Interesting topic/thread. I really wish the stereotyping didn't exist personally, especially with parents doing it. I could write ALOT about what I fear...

[Tak]

I bet we could all write a lot about what we fear. I know I could write a book.

Oddly enough, putting society as a whole aside, my worst fear is hay. o-O; Yeah, society, then hay.

The key is dealing with it in a way that isn't crippling. I have ridiculous panic attacks once a week or so, and smaller anxiety attacks here and there in between. Used to be every day.

Y'know what's helped me? Not prescription drugs, that's for sure! They made it worse! >-<;

[Melissa]

My mom said something like this.  I just pointed out to her that both *her* and my daughter will not act stereotypically female at time either.  That settled that one pretty quickly.  She used to brag how she wasn't afraid to do things that some boys did. >

I agree with that. I girl can act like a tomboy and its acceptable

Quite true but it's very different for us, MTF transsexuals. Unless you're very passable, you can't get away with acting like a tomboy & be perceived as female.

Um, since I can get away with acting like a tomboy and still be perceived as female, does that qualify me as "very passable"?

[Nero]

Time for Nero to put his line in.

Disclaimer: This is Nero's view and his alone.

Hobbies and interests do not matter. I was a nerdy fat kid who hated sports, would duck rather than catch a ball, read the encyclopedia britannica for fun, loved writing and art etc. Not exactly the picture of masculinity.
There are girls who hate dolls, hate cooking and sewing, etc.
Maybe these things denote maculine or feminine, not male or female.
Of course you can be a tomboy, or simply a woman whose interests are more stereotypically masculine.

That being said however, it is my firm belief that transsexuals who were born with the mind of their target gender display obvious behavioural signs from a young age. This doesn't escape the adult figures in the child's life. At least in early childhood before all the pressure to conform set in, this should have been noticeable.
The parents of a TS know their child is different and doesn't behave properly for their birth sex.
How could something as fundamental as a child not behaving in accord with their birth gender escape a parent's notice?  

[Melissa]

The parents of a TS know their child is different and doesn't behave properly for their birth sex.
How could something as fundamental as a child not behaving in accord with their birth gender escape a parent's notice?

Simple, there is an overlap of behaviors for genders.  Many people (regardless of being TS or not) actually do fall into this overlap and these behaviors are generally perceived as the sex you appear to be.  For females that fall in this overlap, they will be usually be seen as tomboys (or possibly normal females since they have a broader range of acceptable behaviors) and for males, they will usually be seen as quiet and reserved.  Occasionally (and this seems more common for FTMs in my observation) what happens is that the person's behaviors will be far enough over into the gender they identify as that parents will have no choice but to notice the child acts "different".  In this case, females are always seen as tomboys and males are always seen as sissys.

I'll use myself as an example here.  I clearly fall into this overlap.  Back when I was seen as male, I pretty much acted as who I really am, but all my behaviors were perceived as male 100% of the time.  I had some feminine mannerisms, but few people cared (I did get picked on occasionally growing up though) by a few kids that "just didn't like me" for some reason.  Now that I am living as female, I behave in almost exactly the same way, yet now I am perceived as female 100% of the time.  I still do all the hobbies I did before transition, with the addition of knitting.  I even liked sewing and cooking before, which wasn't questioned.  I still work on my car (perhaps even to a greater degree) now than I did before.

How can my behaviors be seen as both genders 100% of the time (depending on my appearance) without changing hardly anything unless there is an overlap.  That's certainly my belief how it can be.  My likes and behaviors do fit somewhat better in a female context than as a male one though.

[Sarah Louise]

Back to the original question "Can you be female if you don't act like it?"

You should ask that question to two of my sister-in-laws, genetic girls.  I think their answer would be, Yes.

Playing with dolls, cooking, sewing, etc., have little to do with being a girl.  Those are just things assigned by society.


Sarah L.

[Melissa]

I did play with other boys but never did super hero stuff or pretend war and those kind of games...

I used to play a lot with my younger brother.  We *did* do some super hero stuff, but I usually played the role of batgirl.   I did quite a bit of gender variant stuff without realizing it was something to be ashamed of at the time.  Like playing the batgirl or the number of cool "trendy girl toys" I liked and bought.  I really wasn't teased for any of my gender variant behaviors, nor had them pointed out to me either.  It was just considered acceptable to be how I was.

A lot of parents are very dense about their kids, especially if those children are outside the parameters they knew when they grew up. That, and they're scared sh*tless their child is going to end up marginalized. While teaching elementary school, I used to have parent-teacher conferences with parents who had literally no idea about what was going on with their children or who they were as people. So sad.

So true.  That probably explains why I was allowed to be how I was.

[Nero]

The parents of a TS know their child is different and doesn't behave properly for their birth sex.
How could something as fundamental as a child not behaving in accord with their birth gender escape a parent's notice?

Simple, there is an overlap of behaviors for genders.  Many people (regardless of being TS or not) actually do fall into this overlap and these behaviors are generally perceived as the sex you appear to be.  For females that fall in this overlap, they will be usually be seen as tomboys (or possibly normal females since they have a broader range of acceptable behaviors) and for males, they will usually be seen as quiet and reserved.  Occasionally (and this seems more common for FTMs in my observation) what happens is that the person's behaviors will be far enough over into the gender they identify as that parents will have no choice but to notice the child acts "different".  In this case, females are always seen as tomboys and males are always seen as sissys.

I'll use myself as an example here.  I clearly fall into this overlap.  Back when I was seen as male, I pretty much acted as who I really am, but all my behaviors were perceived as male 100% of the time.  I had some feminine mannerisms, but few people cared (I did get picked on occasionally growing up though) by a few kids that "just didn't like me" for some reason.  Now that I am living as female, I behave in almost exactly the same way, yet now I am perceived as female 100% of the time.  I still do all the hobbies I did before transition, with the addition of knitting.  I even liked sewing and cooking before, which wasn't questioned.  I still work on my car (perhaps even to a greater degree) now than I did before.

How can my behaviors be seen as both genders 100% of the time (depending on my appearance) without changing hardly anything unless there is an overlap.  That's certainly my belief how it can be.  My likes and behaviors do fit somewhat better in a female context than as a male one though.

Nero reeeeally trying not to ruffle feathers here.

Well, apparently my behaviour went beyond the famous 'tomboy safety net' even though I was not the typical sports playing, dirty, muddy tomboy. If my gender variant behaviour as a genetic girl was noted even with the acceptable 'tomboy safety net', then a TS genetic boy's gender variant behaviour should have been much more obvious than mine as there is no 'sissy safety net'. Regardless of the TS genetic male's hobbies or interests.
Because I was as you say - a child who didn't show typical boy or girl interests. I played with both stereotypical boy and girl toys. Played boy and girl games. Played pirates, and soldiers, war, etc. Played with stuffed animals.
And yet I was still seen as abnormal for a little girl. Too masculine. Not feminine enough.
I realize that as a TS child gets older, the need to conform is strong, but gender variant behaviour should have been noticeable at least in the early years.


Posted on: August 07, 2007, 07:40:22 PMAnother thing - my parents didn't even know what a transsexual was, so they didn't think 'oh this is really a boy', but they knew I wanted to be and that I acted like it.

[Melissa]

Well, apparently my behaviour went beyond the famous 'tomboy safety net' even though I was not the typical sports playing, dirty, muddy tomboy. If my gender variant behaviour as a genetic girl was noted even with the acceptable 'tomboy safety net', then a TS genetic boy's gender variant behaviour should have been much more obvious than mine as there is no 'sissy safety net'. Regardless of the TS genetic male's hobbies or interests.
Because I was as you say - a child who didn't show typical boy or girl interests. I played with both stereotypical boy and girl toys. Played boy and girl games. Played pirates, and soldiers, war, etc. Played with stuffed animals.
And yet I was still seen as abnormal for a little girl. Too masculine. Not feminine enough.
I realize that as a TS child gets older, the need to conform is strong, but gender variant behaviour should have been noticeable at least in the early years.

As I said:

Occasionally (and this seems more common for FTMs in my observation) what happens is that the person's behaviors will be far enough over into the gender they identify as that parents will have no choice but to notice the child acts "different".

I *did* definitely have some obvious gender variant behaviors (as I noted in my previous post), but for some reason nobody seemed to care and just accepted it as me just having some quirks.  My parents never attempted to raise me to some standard they thought a boy should be, they just accepted their children as they saw them at face value.  When the parents don't have gender specific expectations, you can do almost anything and they still won't notice.

Another thing - my parents didn't even know what a transsexual was, so they didn't think 'oh this is really a boy', but they knew I wanted to be and that I acted like it.

I certainly brought up many of these things, but they seemed to just shrug those things off and claimed I acted very male growing up.  However, what they did is turn a blind eye to any feminine things I did and just saw the more masculine activities I did.  Plus I wasn't usually in their presence when I did any feminine things.

My brother actually liked participating in many of the feminine activities as well.  Here's some more things I experienced as a child:
My sister loved dressing me and my brother up as girls.  He didn't seem to care, but I loved it.  She'd dress us up and put makeup on us.
My sister loved doing role playing things like pretending to be a school teacher and having me and my brother in class.  I had fun doing the pretending stuff (which tends to be a girl thing), but my brother would usually get bored and wander off.
I loved playing with toys in the bathtub and making up these really long stories with characters that were parts of families.  This also tends to be a more female activity.
I liked drawing, artwork projects, and even doing some crocheting as a kid.
Cooking (and especially baking) was another favorite activity of mine.
There's many more, but I gotta go now.  As you can tell, it should have been obvious to my parents, but probably due to me not being around them much (because they both worked), they rarely saw me doing any of these things.
Of course they did find my stash of female clothes and made a big deal out of that.  I definitely brought that up when I came out to them.

Now that I think about it, I *do* remember my Dad making some comment when I came out to them about them worrying about "something like this happening" while I was growing up.  However, in recent conversations, my mom refused to admit to any of this stuff.  That could just be a result of the denial she has been in since I came out to her though.

Maybe you're right after all.  Oh well.

[Rachael]

I had this argument with my parents before they kicked me out, my lack of femininity as a child was used by them to say i wasnt a girl. Dispite the fact they punished me for femininity and encouraged my masculine interests.
to be honest, im a tomboy, i still wear mens baggy jeans, because thier comfy and look cool with a nice tanktop and chunky belt. ok, im on the skaterish side of fashion, so what? i play a combat sport? meh, so do a lot of girls. Femininity doesnt = female, female is what a woman is. women define themselves.

R

[Nero]

I had this argument with my parents before they kicked me out, my lack of femininity as a child was used by them to say i wasnt a girl. Dispite the fact they punished me for femininity and encouraged my masculine interests.
to be honest, im a tomboy, i still wear mens baggy jeans, because thier comfy and look cool with a nice tanktop and chunky belt. ok, im on the skaterish side of fashion, so what? i play a combat sport? meh, so do a lot of girls. Femininity doesnt = female, female is what a woman is. women define themselves.

R

Your situation was a little different, as your parents apparently were terrified this would happen, and did all they could to make you a normal boy. That's different.

What puzzles me is that I've consistently heard how bad 'budding mtfs' have it growing up and that they go through so much more than ftms who have it easy because of the 'tomboy safety net', so I always assumed and expected that mtfs were punished daily by their parents and school officials for gender variance. I imagined  a scenario with a poor sweet mtf girl cowering and weeping in a corner everyday. I imagined all kinds of scenarios that would be pure hell and way worse than my childhood, so I really expected mtfs to have these horror stories of childhood as a budding mtf.
While I've heard a few like what I'd imagined (Amy comes to mind), most the stories here don't match what I had been told.

[Tak]

Eh.

Growing up is going to be a different experience for everybody. My sister has been saying for years that I'm different, but my parents never picked up on it. She said, after I got older, that she figured it must've been because my mother babied me. She didn't, my sister just saw what she wanted to. After I came out to her, she said it all suddenly made sense -- and doesn't doubt in the slightest, unlike my parents who are... just seeing what they want to. My frugality (fix-it myself attitude) they consider a masculine trait. I practice programming in my spare time. I love to drive my car just for the sake of driving it, and I like small, sporty vehicles. I read a lot. I love horror movies. My parents consider all of these masculine things, but it's only because they're looking for them to be masculine. My sister does most of the same things and it's fine, normal girl behavior. When I write poetry, they think I'm trying to be girly -- but I consider it a normal, androgynous thing. I hate sports too, but somehow that's normal boy behavior as well.

People will see what they want to see. They (for the most part) ignore or disregard facts to support their own "truth" to make them sleep better at night... or whatever. That's why congress sucks, but I don't want to talk politics. I hate politics.