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If there is a genetic and biological basis for gender...

Started by Olivia P, June 06, 2014, 12:22:22 PM

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0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

helen2010

Quote from: Jill F on June 18, 2014, 01:57:00 AM
I don't know exactly why I'm trans.  Genetics, epigenetics, DES, XXY, PAIS, THC, something in the water or demonic possession? I suppose for the sake of humankind that it would be nice to have a definitive answer as to why people experince GD, but at the end of the day it has become irrelevant to my day to day existence. I'm trans and that's the way the cookie crumbled.  I could never corner my mother and grill her for answers, and she even has a doctorate in this sort of thing.  As far as I'm concerned, the "why" factor is moot, and I can't dwell on it any longer.  I'm here, I'm me and I just need to move on and make the best out of however much time I have left.  Who wants cookies?
Jill F

I agree.  It is what it is.  I am trans and the fact that I experience dysphoria is my reality.  Just so long as there is a cure or treatment aka HRT (in my case low dose HRT) then all is good.  Just make sure that there is the right amount of E and spiro in each cookie!  I am then more than happy to transition as appropriate.

Aisla
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Olivia P

Thing is, greater understanding of what it is, gives greater power to help others not directly affected understand, and therefore allow full equality and tolerance to be achieved
To be beautiful means to be yourself. You don't need to be accepted by others. You need to accept yourself. - Thích Nhất Hạnh
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Jessica Merriman

Some will never accept it even with scientifically proven conclusions. Societal conditioning and long held non tolerant views would trump anything found. Throw in the religious zealotry on the subject and I think things and prejudices would still remain in force.  :)
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Olivia P

Social and cultural pressure is the driving force that fights against those that would prefer we didn't exist, its that driving force that will make them the outcasts for having such views. The effort is worth it.

Just look at how much has changed in the last 100 years.
To be beautiful means to be yourself. You don't need to be accepted by others. You need to accept yourself. - Thích Nhất Hạnh
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Jessica Merriman

Quote from: Olivia P on June 18, 2014, 02:30:10 AM
The effort is worth it.
Oh I agree the effort is worth it, but for every step forward we still have situations like the Southern Baptist Resolution making the progress slower than it should be. You could show them all the scientific evidence on a big screen and they will still refuse to believe it.
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Olivia P

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 18, 2014, 02:33:06 AM
Oh I agree the effort is worth it, but for every step forward we still have situations like the Southern Baptist Resolution making the progress slower than it should be. You could show them all the scientific evidence on a big screen and they will still refuse to believe it.

Yes they may slow the progress, however their making an example of themselves that won't go down well in the future.

Similar to how bad their position on slavery made them look.
To be beautiful means to be yourself. You don't need to be accepted by others. You need to accept yourself. - Thích Nhất Hạnh
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Jessica Merriman

Quote from: Olivia P on June 18, 2014, 02:41:43 AM
Similar to how bad their position on slavery made them look.
Oh they don't bring that up at all!  ::) I will say things are much better now than when I was a kid. Just being gay could get you run out of town, no utility service or jobs. I guarantee one thing when it starts to hit them in the tithe plate it is miraculous how many things will be accepted.  :)
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Jill F

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on June 18, 2014, 02:47:04 AM
Oh they don't bring that up at all!  ::) I will say things are much better now than when I was a kid. Just being gay could get you run out of town, no utility service or jobs. I guarantee one thing when it starts to hit them in the tithe plate it is miraculous how many things will be accepted.  :)

Oh Jessica, you so nailed that one.  It's amazing how religious institutions can loosen up their positions on longstanding or "sacred" things when the powers that be start feeling it in the pocketbook.  I spent a long time studying religion and culture, and history will always repeat itself in this fashion.  It also blows my mind how Leviticus and Deuteronomy are either in play or out of play depending on the verses that are cherry picked.  See, LGBT is still an abomination, but eating pork and shellfish, working on the Sabbath and wearing blended fabrics are somehow not.   I know I'm probably sounding like a broken record, but you know you've chosen the right religion when your God hates the same people you do.  Remember when black people supposedly had the "Mark of Cain" according to some fundamentalists?  In the end, that wasn't so hot for the coffers either.
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Jess42

Quote from: Jill F on June 18, 2014, 01:57:00 AM
I don't know exactly why I'm trans.  Genetics, epigenetics, DES, XXY, PAIS, THC, something in the water or demonic possession? I suppose for the sake of humankind that it would be nice to have a definitive answer as to why people experince GD, but at the end of the day it has become irrelevant to my day to day existence. I'm trans and that's the way the cookie crumbled.  I could never corner my mother and grill her for answers, and she even has a doctorate in this sort of thing.  As far as I'm concerned, the "why" factor is moot, and I can't dwell on it any longer.  I'm here, I'm me and I just need to move on and make the best out of however much time I have left.  Who wants cookies?

I blame demonic posession. I tried split pea soup one time and got really bad sick afterward so.... Just sayin'.

Yeah a definative answer would be nice but really I am to the point and old enough that I really don't care how people see me. Hell I really don't care how I see myself anymore. I'm just me and whatever the demon does that is controlling me, she does with my consent. ;)
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helen2010

Quote from: Jess42 on June 19, 2014, 07:38:24 AM
Yeah a definitive answer would be nice but really I am to the point ...  that I really don't care
Agree.  Consensus still eludes us re the basis of gender... while support for a genetic or biological basis would be enormously validating ... gender dysphoria exists, it causes the tg community intense anguish and we deal with it as best we can.

Aisla
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Jess42

Quote from: Aisla on June 19, 2014, 04:36:20 PM
Agree.  Consensus still eludes us re the basis of gender... while support for a genetic or biological basis would be enormously validating ... gender dysphoria exists, it causes the tg community intense anguish and we deal with it as best we can.

Aisla

What really gets me though, say there is no biological or genetic reason for it. Hypothetically say it is 100% psychological. It is curable in most cases just like schyzophrenia or major depression disorder sometimes through medication ie HRT or corrective surgery ie SRS. Why is it so taboo in society if it is nothing more than a legitimate psychological disorder? People suffering other psychological disorders don't face the persecution that we do in society and as a matter of fact they usually get quite a bit more sympathy. That is if it was purely psychological which I don't really think it is.

I personally think we scare people by threatening their own sense of self. I mean most people are this or that and the outside is like the inside and they are comfortable with it. Then we come along and our internal self may be 180 degrees different than our external self. This may lead to them questioning their own self identity on a subconscious level and make them maybe not as secure in it as they once were. And usually people lash out, belittle or laugh at what scares them the most.
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Olivia P

What doesnt help is that in the middle ages the west kinda had events that tried to eliminate any trace of anything other from birth binary. In other places like india there is still a level of respect there, seen as sacred etc, hand out blessings. And the two spirit people of native america. Problem is the return of people openly being themselves is now challenging that established way of thinking that foolishly thinks sex and gender is xx/xy and nothing else.

There are many more cultures before modern day western that had some concept of stuff other than natal m/f, although sadly you have to dig to find out about it as the history books written by todays civilization decided to ignore it. Thats a common issue with history tho, it is written by the victors, and alot of stuff gets lost.

And sadly the middle ages are so long ago, most people dont care to make the effort to inform themselves and just accept whatever they have been told as absolute fact.

This Carl Sagan quote captures this issue very well...

Quote from: Carl Sagan"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It's simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back."

This article seems to be a nice summary of the past too:

QuoteOn nearly every continent, and for all of recorded history, thriving cultures have recognized, revered, and integrated more than two genders. Terms such as transgender and gay are strictly new constructs that assume three things: that there are only two sexes (male/female), as many as two sexualities (gay/straight), and only two genders (man/woman).

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/map.html

This part on the indian culture shows what i mean by what the west did to eliminate the idea of anything beyond binary:

QuoteDuring the era of the British Raj, authorities attempted to eradicate hijras, whom they saw as "a breach of public decency." Also during British rule in India they were placed under the Criminal Tribes Act 1871 and labelled a "criminal tribe," hence subjected to compulsory registration, strict monitoring and stigmatized for a long time, after independence however they were decriminalized in 1952, though the stigma continues.
To be beautiful means to be yourself. You don't need to be accepted by others. You need to accept yourself. - Thích Nhất Hạnh
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Jess42

Sometimes the human race is indeed a sad thing. Yeah I knew about other cultures and the Native Americans.

I think Carl Sagan got it right. A lot of history has been wiped out, the Myans and their texts are a perfect example. If there writings and historical documents would not have been destroyed, maybe we could have truly understood the significance of the year 2012 instead of all the hype and speculation.

The middle ages truly were the dark ages and our real history may never be known or how many different cultures were wiped off the face of the earth.
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helen2010

Quote from: Jess42 on June 20, 2014, 10:40:36 AM
What really gets me though, say there is no biological or genetic reason for it. Hypothetically say it is 100% psychological. It is curable in most cases just like schyzophrenia or major depression disorder sometimes through medication ie HRT or corrective surgery ie SRS. Why is it so taboo in society if it is nothing more than a legitimate psychological disorder? People suffering other psychological disorders don't face the persecution that we do in society and as a matter of fact they usually get quite a bit more sympathy. That is if it was purely psychological which I don't really think it is.

I personally think we scare people by threatening their own sense of self. I mean most people are this or that and the outside is like the inside and they are comfortable with it. Then we come along and our internal self may be 180 degrees different than our external self. This may lead to them questioning their own self identity on a subconscious level and make them maybe not as secure in it as they once were. And usually people lash out, belittle or laugh at what scares them the most.

Jess

I do agree with you but my best understanding is that dysphoria is biopsychosocial in nature.  The importance of each element and their interaction remains unclear.  It can be 'treated' successfully but even here binarism and social pressure is often debilitating because of the stigmatisation of dysphoria.

I guess my point was that while it is important and natural to seek and to share a complete understanding of the causes of dysphoria, we do know that it can be treated successfully and, for me, this was a revelation and perhaps the most important learning.

Aisla
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peky

Quote from: Olivia P on June 06, 2014, 12:22:22 PM
If there is a genetic and biological basis for gender, doesn't that mean sex and gender is in reality the same thing and that the separation of the terms are simply left overs from the days of science thinking gender is purely psychological?

Research of the past 14 years had produce a body of evidence that indicates that gender identity and sexual orientation are biological determined.

However, the brain centers involved in gender identity are different than the centers involve in sexual orientation, that is there are two different systems.

These discoveries first accepted and embraced by the endocrinologist, neurologists, neurobiologists, geneticist, and pediatricians, and later on by surgeons, have not sway some of the psychiatric and/or psychology establishment, who still hold to rather obtuse and outdate psychobabble theories of gender identity and/or sexual orientation development... that is not surprising as these field are empirical fields
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helen2010

Peky

Is there an 'idiots guide' on this subject?  When you are a lay person like me it feels like trying to understand this is akin to navigating an ever changing maze of often confusing and contradictory opinion and 'evidence'.

Aisla
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peky

Quote from: Jill F on June 18, 2014, 01:57:00 AM
As far as I'm concerned, the "why" factor is moot, and I can't dwell on it any longer.

The why = "biologically determined" is of tremendous importance legally and socially. President Obama move to cover SRS/HRT under medicare was "based on medical and scientific evidence"

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peky

Quote from: Aisla on June 20, 2014, 05:02:21 PM
Peky

Is there an 'idiots guide' on this subject?  When you are a lay person like me it feels like trying to understand this is skin to navigating an ever changing maze of often confusing and contradictory opinion and 'evidence'.

Aisla

yes, you are right, scientist are not the best communicators, and the papers out there are for them rather for the common folks...

Yeah, a Biology of Gender Identity 101 would be a great book to have.... let me dig in my files, I can remember a well written review written by Saab and collaborators a few years back... stand-by

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peky

Hi, Aisla,

I do not know how to attach a pdf, so I am pasting the whole thing below

Sexual differentiation in the human brain
D.F. Swaab1, A-M. Bao1, T. Ishunina1,2
1Netherlands Institute for Neuroscience, Amsterdam, The Netherlands, 2Department of Histology, Kursk State
Medical University, Kursk, Russia
Functional sex differences are expressed from early childhood onwards, e.g. in our playing
behaviour and drawings. Sex differences in cognition, reproduction, gender identity (the
feeling to be male or female) and sexual orientation, and in the incidence of neurological and
psychiatric disorders in adulthood are presumed to be based upon structural and functional
sex differences in the brain. Many of such sex differences have now been described in the
human brain. They arise during development by an interaction of sex hormones and the
developing neurons, although direct genetic effects are probably also involved [1]. Factors
influencing structural [2] and functional [1, 3] sex differences in the brain are genetic factors
like mutations or polymorphisms in the sex hormone receptors, abnormal prenatal hormone
levels and compounds such as anticonvulsants, Diethylstilbestrol (an estrogen-like
compound) and environmental endocrine disrupters. When given during pregnancy they
interact with the action of sex hormones on the fetal brain. An influence of postnatal social
factors on gender or sexual orientation has not been established. In rodents, masculinization
of the brain in development is due to estrogens that are formed by aromatization of
testosterone. In sexual differentiation of the human brain direct effects of testosterone seem
to be of primary importance based upon evidence shown e.g. from subjects with mutations in
the androgen receptor, estrogen receptor or in the aromatase gene [3].
In transsexuals we observed a reversal of the sex difference in the central nucleus of the bed
nucleus of the stria terminalis. The size, type of innervation and neuron number agreed with
their gender identity and not with their genetic sex [4,5]. Various structural and functional
brain differences related to sexual orientation have now also been reported [1,6,7].
There is a clear sex difference in psychiatric disorders such as depression: the prevalence,
incidence and morbidity risk is higher in females than in males, which may be due to both
organizing and activating effects of sex hormones on the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal-axis.
Fluctuations in sex hormone levels are considered to be involved in the susceptibility to
depression, seen e.g. in the premenstrual, ante- and postpartum period, during the transition
phase to the menopause and during oral contraceptives treatment. It was found that about
40% of the activated corticotropin releasing hormone (CRH) neurons in the hypothalamic
paraventricular nucleus in mood disorders expresses also the estrogen receptor (ER)- [8].
Estrogen-responsive elements are found in the CRH gene promoter region, while estrogens
stimulate CRH expression in animal studies. An androgen-responsive element in the CRH
gene promoter region has also been identified recently, which initiates a suppressing effect on
CRH expression [9].
In addition, there are sex differences present in the way the brain ages and in Alzheimer
neuropathology [3, 7]. The field is becoming extra complex by the presence of splice variants
(and isoforms) of ER- and the local production of steroid hormones in the brain. In the
human medial mamillary nucleus and hippocampus we detected, using RT-PCR, ER splice
forms skipping entire exons 7, 4 and 2 and we identified two novel variants: 1) MB1 that is
lacking 168 nucleotides in exon 1, and 2) TADDI, in which 31bp are missing in between exons
3 and 4, while 13bp are inserted from the middle of exon 2 [10,11]. In our recent work we
investigated whether canonical and alternatively spliced ER-mRNA and protein are affected
by age, menopause and Alzheimer disease (AD) in the hippocampus that is essential for
declarative memory. Experimental and clinical studies indeed suggested beneficial effects of
estrogens on hippocampus-dependent cognitive functions. Such positive effects have,
however, not been obtained in late AD stages. Interestingly, nuclear ER
immunocytochemical expression was prominently higher in young women (34-50 years of
age) than in young men (31-64 years of age), possibly due to higher plasma estrogen levels.
Moreover, nuclear ER, aromatase and the Golgi complex size which is indicative of neuronal
metabolic activity, enhanced during aging in women. Our data suggested that the elevated
expression of nuclear ER in postmenopausal women versus pre- and perimenopausal
women is due to a drop in circulating estrogen levels that seems to cause an increase in the
local estrogen production in the hippocampus, which may subsequently up-regulate ER.
Furthermore, locally synthesized estrogens may stimulate hippocampal neuronal metabolic
rate in postmenopausal women via rapid non-genomic mechanisms. In AD cases canonical
and alternatively spliced ER-mRNA, and aromatase gene transcripts were down-regulated,
suggesting reduced local estrogen levels and diminished signaling through ER. Whether this
finding may be related to a general genetic shut-down in the AD hippocampus remains to be
elucidated. Concluding, structural and functional sex differences in the brain are present in all
stages of life, and are involved in many functions in heath as well as in diseases.
References
1 Swaab DF: The human hypothalamus. Basic and Clinical Aspects. Part I: Nuclei of the
Hypothalamus, Handbook of Clinical Neurology; in Aminoff MJ, Boller F, Swaab DF (ed. Amsterdam,
Elsevier, 2003, vol 79.
2 Swaab DF, Fliers E: A sexually dimorphic nucleus in the human brain. Science 1985; 228:1112-1115.
3 Swaab DF: Sexual differentiation of the human brain: Relevance for gender identity, transsexualism
and sexual orientation. Gynecol Endocrinol 2004;19: 301-312.
4 Zhou JN, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF: A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to
transsexuality. Nature 1995; 378: 68-70.
5 Kruijver FP, Zhou JN, Pool CW, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF: Male-to-female transsexuals
have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000; 85: 2034-2041.
6 Swaab DF, Hofman MA: An enlarged suprachiasmatic nucleus in homosexual men. Brain Res 1990;
537: 141-148.
7 Swaab DF: The Human Hypothalamus. Basic and Clinical Aspects. Part II: Neuropathology of the
hypothalamus and adjacent brain structures. Handbook of Clinical Neurology. Amsterdam, Elsevier,
2004.
8 Bao AM, Hestiantoro A, Van Someren EJ, Swaab DF, Zhou JN: Colocalization of corticotropinreleasing
hormone and oestrogen receptor-alpha in the paraventricular nucleus of the hypothalamus in
mood disorders. Brain 2005; 128: 1301-1313.
9 Bao AM, Fischer DF, Wu YH, Hol EM, Balesar R, Unmehopa UA, Zhou JN, Swaab DF: A direct
androgenic involvement in the expression of human corticotropin-releasing hormone. Mol Psychiatry
2006; 11: 567-576.
10 Ishunina TA, Swaab DF, Fischer DF: Estrogen receptor-alpha splice variants in the medial mamillary
nucleus of alzheimer's disease patients: Identification of a novel mb1 isoform. J Clin Endocrinol Metab
2005; 90: 3757-3765.
11 Ishunina TA, Fischer DF, Swaab DF: Estrogen receptor alpha and its splice variant
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peky

so, yeah, what I posted above is still pretty techie but if you dispense of the detail the gist of it is that gender identity, sexual orientation, and other gender specific behaviors and attributes, are due to hard-wired structures on the brain. This circuits are wired under the influence of drugs, hormone, and genes, in the womb, and shortly after birth.
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