Nonbinary and considering surgery

[androgynouspainter26]

Hey all,

Just wondering if there's anyone else out there who is considering a full physical transition (i.e. top, facial, and bottom surgery) but doesn't identify as male or female.  I'm planning on getting FFS soon, and a lot of people in the nonbinary community have been slamming me for it...what do you all think?  Can someone be transsexual and also nonbinary? 

[eli77]

I've had facial surgery and SRS. I'm "female" in so far as that's the most comfortable category for my physical form. I don't really do gender though. I roughly fit under the "agender" label, I guess.

I didn't realize there was a non-binary community to have opinions about things. But generally, having an opinion about someone else's body is pretty pointless unless you are looking to have sex with them.

It's your body, your flesh, your skin. Nobody but you gets a vote.

[Kassie]

You are the only one who knows your body what you are comfortable with etc. I have been living for other people my whole 30 years tried suicide several times etc. Woosh I have stood up sooner or been successful on suicide you cannot please everyone you have to do what you feel is best

[suzifrommd]

Hey all,

Just wondering if there's anyone else out there who is considering a full physical transition (i.e. top, facial, and bottom surgery) but doesn't identify as male or female.  I'm planning on getting FFS soon, and a lot of people in the nonbinary community have been slamming me for it...what do you all think?  Can someone be transsexual and also nonbinary?

I'm not doing facial or top surgery, but I am doing bottom surgery. I am living as a female 100%, and even pass most of the time.

I consider myself non-binary, because I don't feel like a woman. This is the most natural presentation for me, but I still feel like a man a lot of the time.

IMO, non-binary people have just as much right as binary folks to transition to the presentation that feels the most comfortable. We are NOT required just to sit on the sidelines and cheer on the binary folk.

So the answer to your question is YES.

[ativan]

Can someone be transsexual and also nonbinary? 

Yes.
If your body, your presentation as it is, happens to be male and you are non-binary, how does changing your presentation, your body to female change that?
It could be the other way around, how would that change it?
Are non-binaries supposed to look androgynous of a sort? Or can we just go with what feels right...
I've defined transsexual as binary and having a desire to go through a full transition,.. in general.
I've been feeling guilty for using that as an example at times, because it isn't completely true.
There are plenty of people who thought of themselves as binary transsexual and have landed somewhere in the non-binary. Why not?
There are people who thought of themselves as non-binary and then discover that they are transsexual and binary. Again, why not?
I should be defining transsexual as someone who wishes to go through a full transition and leave the binary/non-binary up to them.
Times have changed and so have definitions. *I need to be more careful in how I define things, I shouldn't define anyways, it's not my call.
These are not binding rules of absolutes, there really aren't any that I can think of...
Terms and descriptions are always changing and are generalizations at their best, totally wrong for some at their worst.

Who has the right to tell anyone what their presentation should be or not be based on their gender, whether binary or non-binary?
Who has the right to tell you what your gender is? Is it based on presentation, whether non-binary or binary?
Do I now have the right to tell them what I think they should present as? I don't think that whole idea works very well, for anyone.

There does seem to be little changes in definitions going on.
Which is just fine, it shows more awareness of just what it is to be trans... Regardless of who you are.
Something that as a community, (binary, and non-binary, and others), we need to be able to explain if we are to have equal rights.

A little fine tuning here and there is good, but there isn't a way of keeping presentation and gender in a single rule, they are two different things.
Trying to force presentation and gender together as an explanation of self is complicated in itself as it is.
If someone needs to ask about it, you have to go through all the explanation of what each is and why...
Just like using labels in the first place, it boxes you into something you will probably need to find a way out of sooner or later.

I go with 'be descriptive, not a description'. You are who you are and nobody can tell you that you aren't.
Nobody has that right, unless they want to give it up for themselves as well...
Full transitions don't belong to anyone, anyone can do that if they want to. Nobody owns that.
To say something along the lines that only certain people can do that is pretty narrow minded and it's boxing people up into neat little packages.
Individualism is probably one of the most distinguishing characteristic of the trans community as a whole.
Ativan

[helen2010]

Hey all,

Just wondering if there's anyone else out there who is considering a full physical transition (i.e. top, facial, and bottom surgery) but doesn't identify as male or female.  I'm planning on getting FFS soon, and a lot of people in the nonbinary community have been slamming me for it...what do you all think?  Can someone be transsexual and also nonbinary?

androgynouspainter

I am with the majority on this one.   If you desire a change in physical presentation then it is your call and this should be respected.

On my side I have sought a more A, less M, more F and a touch GQ in presentation.  Why - because it feels right and closer to my identity ie who I am on the inside, and to that which I aspire to be.   So less aggressive FFS (FAS if you like) made sense to me, in hindsight not so sure, as low dose  hrt may have been, in time, enough.

I can understand a non binary also electing GCS if their centre of gravity is more consistent with, and enabled by, a fully female physical transition.  For me this is not needed or appropriate.

Aisla

[Kimberley Beauregard]

Your call, not other people's.  I think it's sad that you're getting slated for considering surgery.

I have to admit, I'm considering "FAS" myself.

[androgynouspainter26]

A lot of it comes down to the changing face of the trans* community.  Among people my age, non-binary identified individuals outnumber the "classic" trans men and women by a huge margin.  I can honestly say I know more genderqueer people than I do trans* men AND women combined...It's a testament to how this generation sees gender as something to be deconstructed, disobeyed, and outright ignored-and for the most part, I love it. 

Many of these people don't really experience dysphoria; rather, gender (or gender expression, whatever you choose to call it) is an IDENTITY to many of them-something to be chosen based on preference, and what seems to fit best.  And while this is something I positively love, a lot of them don't really know what it feels like to be born into the wrong body-or at least for that feeling to be so intense.  "Gender is how you identify, not what's between your legs-so why change what's between your legs"?

And then there's the political aspect of this, too-There are so many now who choose not to have surgery, because your genitalia doesn't make you a man or a woman-and therefore, by choosing to have surgery, you are enforcing the notion that you must have specific features to be a certain gender-And I must admit, there's some merit to that idea.  Furthermore, by having surgery, you are giving into societal pressures to conform to a certain norm.  The truth is that gaining acceptance from others is a huge factor in my decision-not the only one, for sure-but is any decision made in the presence of those pressures a valid one? 

It's wrong to shun this way of thinking.  On an intellectual level, I completely agree.  But I still cannot be rid of the need I'm experiencing for my body to be different.  Perhaps I am both transgender (genderqueer, specifically) and and transexual-that is, the way I present myself is at odds with traditional gender norms, but I also feel the need to actually change my physical sex from male to female.  I'll rock a dress one day and a tuxedo the next, I strive to look as androgynous as Ziggy Stardust; but I need to do all of these things as what we are biologically coded to think of as a "woman". 

[VeronicaLynn]

A lot of it comes down to the changing face of the trans* community.  Among people my age, non-binary identified individuals outnumber the "classic" trans men and women by a huge margin.  I can honestly say I know more genderqueer people than I do trans* men AND women combined...It's a testament to how this generation sees gender as something to be deconstructed, disobeyed, and outright ignored-and for the most part, I love it.

As someone from the previous generation, I find this interesting. I only found out about the concept of non-binary a year ago or so. I perhaps could have earlier, but was trying so hard to stay in denial I wasn't looking for more info. I'm not entirely sure what I am, or if I would feel differently if non-binary options were something I knew about when I was younger, but I do still sometimes want the surgery just as much as I did when I first heard about it as a kid, for the same reasons as back then, I don't want to be a man.

[Jessica Merriman]

Though provoking question to say the least. I am curious what the Therapist would say and if they would sign off on surgery though. Remember two letters are required. Just wonder what their take on this would be. If you find out let me know. 

[Natkat]

Can someone be transsexual and also nonbinary?

what is transexual and nonbinary?

For me it terms who really depends on where you are and who you ask, the same goes for words like stealth, queer and so on.
I have experience in some comunities people would decribe themself binary because they wanted/had transitioned, and lived full time as a guy/girl and in other comunityes the same type of folks would decribe themself as non-binary because of there mindset on how living as the other gender had learn them some fact about genders. some comunityes also used gender neutral words are a way to state that they where in-between and nonbinary where other comunitys could use gender neutral words as a "it just not important what gender I have" no matter if you identified binary or nonbinay.

so if we look at it as the perspective that gender all depends, (and so dose these trans* definitions we use) on where we are, then sure it can be posible to be transexual and non-binary.
you already answer alot of your own question yourself by decribing your comunity and there view on trans* which for them is the norm, and your transness as being outside the norm. for me
it very opposite of where I live.
--
I really dont think you should let people decide for you if you want threatment or not its a personal decidion. to get more personal
one of my friend have transition and gone full time as a woman, but she identify as genderqueer. I personally identify as non-binary transexual* (* because I dont use transexual in my non-english everyday life because it not really a good word here) and well I also have transition and so. deep down it just important what you feel confortable with.

And then there's the political aspect of this, too-There are so many now who choose not to have surgery, because your genitalia doesn't make you a man or a woman-and therefore, by choosing to have surgery, you are enforcing the notion that you must have specific features to be a certain gender-And I must admit, there's some merit to that idea.  Furthermore, by having surgery, you are giving into societal pressures to conform to a certain norm.  The truth is that gaining acceptance from others is a huge factor in my decision-not the only one, for sure-but is any decision made in the presence of those pressures a valid one? 

you dont really gain acceptence by having surgery, specialy not bottom surgery. My friend exemple still got some transphobic comments even when she have had surgery, Jerks are still going to be jerk no matter, and friends are going to keep being friend no matter surgery or not.

the agument however that surgery dosen't matter is crap, I will take another exemple: if someone is overweight and the person is fine with it, then it would be rude saying they should lose weight when they dont really have any wish to just because the beuti in now-days sociaty is skinny folks.
yet, if you are overweight and you really dont feel confortable in your own skin due to your weight then it would also be wrong saying you could not lose weight because it would suport the view that you had to be skinny to be pretty.

well life is not that black and white, Is all people who colour there hair black suporting the thought that blonde haired people is ugly?
is all people who wear contact linse suporting the idea that you shouldnt wear glasses?
I belive sociaty do have a efford no matter which time we are, however, you have a choice and your choice should be what make you feel good and not what sociaty expect.
if you feel good about your body and dont want surgery then its fine, and if you want surgery then it also fine.

[eli77]

There are kind of a lot of assumptions built into the way of thinking you are describing. I've encountered it before and... I find it limiting.

"Gender is how you identify, not what's between your legs-so why change what's between your legs?" is a really crappy question. I don't identify as any gender. Suggesting that I altered my flesh DUE to my gender (not that I have one) is just as limiting as saying I MUST alter my flesh to be a certain gender. It comes down to the same old "this is how it is for me" ergo "this is how it must be for everyone else" nonsense.

I don't "shun" the idea, I just think it's incomplete - especially given that it has to write people like me out of existence to even have a coherent theory. I also think it fails to account for the actual trauma that a lot of trans people experience in regards to their forms. And that discomfort, and the need for self-determination, trumps the politics every single time for me.

[Lyric]

I suspect the people "slamming" you about getting FFS have their own problems going on and it doesn't have much to do with you. Lots of people get facial plastic surgery for various reasons. It seems reasonable to me that if you're a genetic male "nonbinary" person, changing your face to look more feminine might be an option to consider. To me, though, such an extreme measure a surgery is best only done as a last resort-- after considering or trying other things. Perhaps it's because I'm a shameless gender crosser myself, but I actually find certain masculine facial features on a feminine person rather appealing. And I've seen so many post FFS folks who kind of look like they just walked out of a flying saucer. One thing about plastic surgery is that it really is always a gamble as to how it will really look after finished and healed.

[androgynouspainter26]

Thanks for all of the great ideas; it's good to hear some friendly voices!

I'm pretty sure it just has to do with the idea of endorsing traditional standards of gender.  It's something I have a very hard time wrapping my head around personally.  If everyone in the world accepted me for who I am, didn't harass me, didn't just fire me from my job, and if my gender wasn't the cause for more than a year and a half of celibacy-I'd reconsider having FFS in a heartbeat.  A huge part of this is having the option to fit in -even in the queer community, there's a huge stigma associated with being trans, being friends with trans people, and especially with dating them.  In other words, I'm not sure I'd make the same decision if the isolation I'm experiencing at least partially because of my inability to pass for female  (even though I don't like thinking of myself as a woman) wasn't so severe, constant, and ceaseless.  I suppose that's where all of this vitriol is stemming from.  Part of this IS for me-but only part of it.

Also, Jessica, for FFS and BA, generally letters aren't actually required.  Anyways, my therapist and psychiatrist have no problem writing letters for someone who in non-binary.  As long as it seems like surgery might be able to help, they'd both happily sign on.  It's an idiotic policy anyways-nobody should have to prove their gender to anyone.  Period. 

[ativan]

Just as gender is so diverse, so are the reasons and feelings behind dysphoria.
Whether it is even recognized as such or not, it is more important to the individual than what society has to say about it.
Major piercings and tats are so common place, even surgeries to change oneself into a version of people that doesn't exist naturally.
It's become a normal for society. Why is FFS or SRS any different?
And that's really the bottom line here. You are you to do as you see fit for yourself.
The reasons really are nobodies business but your own.
Your body, your rules.

When I was in my teens and twenties, just defying the rules of fashion of the day freaked people out.
The start of radicalism began back then, Woodstock, Stonewall, LSD, a sexual revolution was taking place.
Being radical became a normal for many teens and twenty something's.
A certain amount of defiance from teenagers and those in their twenties is normal behavior and some of that seems to have been lost for a while.
The last decade has seen a lot of changes in behaviors both good and bad, and being radical is really being a part of the normal again.
A lot of communities are tightening up, even groups or communities within the larger communities.
Polarizing different groups has also become a normal, it's a sign of societal sickness in a way.
To have to follow that kind of polarization within a community that you are a part of is wrong, it's following that sickness.
But is seems that things are turning around from what I perceive of the younger generations.
Your statements of how your generation is defining gender is an indication of both sides of this.
I hope they end up flipping society on it's side and let that become the normal. It needs it...

There is never anything wrong with being who you are, despite what anyone has to say about it.
I told someone the other day when they said the phrase 'Life Begins at the Edge of Your Comfort Zone', that's true.
It is where it begins. Starts right there...
But 'Stepping Past the Edge is Living Your Life'. Your comfort zone expands the further you go, always right behind you.
You can step right back into it anytime you want to.
When others tell you that you shouldn't or worse yet, that you can't, it's because of their fears that their Edge will now move farther away from them.

When I was your age, I was off on an adventure that turned into a kind of hell that people shouldn't have to go through.
I made decisions almost everyday that were life or death for not only me but others as well. It became the normal. For me.
I doubt many people would agree that it was. I stepped so far past that Edge that it broke me for awhile.
I could've walked away at any time I wanted to. And for everyone I knew, that's exactly what they told me to do.
By the time I did stop and had to heal, I was so far past that Edge that those I had hung around with were lost in theirs.
I had a need to be true to myself at the time and made the decision to.
I wouldn't have it any other way, despite losing my friends because I was just being me.
I ended up with better ones, people who could keep up.
Don't let others define what the Edge is for you.
Live your life, it's your's to do with as you need to.
Ativan

[Satinjoy]

Another enormously powerful non binary thread. 

First, physical dysphoria hurts, it bites, won't let go easily.  There are ways to sooth it but it remains intensely powerful and must be handled with full knowledge of that power.

Surgery is permanent stuff.  You just have to be sure that it is what you want/need/desire and  that the outcome will have positive effects and not negative, on you, loved ones, etc.  And where it puts you on Ativan's edge and comfort zones.

Self deception is disasterous.  Self awareness is great power.

So if it makes you feel better and soothes the dysphoria, why not?

As to the bashing, posh on that.  Peer pressure or peceived peer pressure almost destroyed me.  I needed to id where the negs were coming from and isolate from  that which makes me sicker and not healthier.  Whether on or off forum.

Many can help, many will project thier unbalances, fears and stigmas onto someone else, innocently probably.  Naively.  Its ok.  We all need each other big time.

For me, I identify as phyically mtf, but not presentationally.  I am loaded with female hormones.  My body is changing.  Surgery is not necessary, not desired and not an option.  I present as genderqueer and its sublte, I read as a male.  Yet my body and physical dysphoria is entirely female. I have to do what is necessary to remain happy and healthy.  Screw society and their norms.  I am not one of their norms, I am unique and beautiful and finding my design.

Do what you need to dear, but with your eyes wide open, look at the long term picture so that there will be no regrets, only joy in living.  If there is a gut feeling that something is off, wait and find out what the core of that is.  If there is a deep gut feeling of joy and approval associated with the change, that is a wonderful thing.

Then you will be safer in your choices.

As to the whole mtf mta mtanything deal, freedom from self deception, knowing the core, and being true to yourself is the only thing that matters.  All other labels or social pressures are meaningless.  Consequences of presentations are one thing, but crushing your core is another altogether, and physical dysphoria for me HURTS.  None has the right to force me to keep that hurt active.  They may help me with it - I have found acceptance in genderqueer with support here on the forum, for it keeps my life safe - they may have keys to acceptance, but they do not live in your body and cannot know your pain, only their own as a guide.

My take on it.  And the shrinks are good at helping make sure deception and consequences are clearly known to you.  Just make sure they know that the heck they are doing before you entrust yourself to them.  Mine happens to be great.

Blessings to all here.  Nails out, hair down, eyes wide open.

[Kaelin]

Gender is not a ternary concept any more than it is a binary concept.  Just because you are non-binary like other non-binaries doesn't mean you have the same gender as them.  Furthermore, even non-binaries who are arguably the same gender don't have a moral obligation to meet a non-binary ideal any more than women and men do for their respective genders.  You've got to be you, and if that calls for a body that happens to be "feminine," so be it.

As others have mentioned, though, there are no refunds or returns on bottom surgery, and surgery elsewhere is not something you want to mess with too often.  You want to make sure they are right for you before proceeding.

As for the question whether non-binaries can be transsexuals, then assuming we're talking about non-binary gender, I would say non-binaries almost have to be transsexuals by definition: their gender does not align with the one assigned to them (unless they were assigned a non-binary identity somehow), and that is the rough requirement of being transsexual.  Being a transsexual does not *require* fancy things like surgery, even if some amount of body-manipulation is typically desired; often non-op is not a matter of choice, but sometimes it is (and Susan's even has a non-op board for TSs).

[ryanjoseph]

you're not the only one! i'm considering top surgery and possibly bottom surgery. basically i want to be ~male-bodied in the traditional sense, but still be non-binary.

[Charr Lee]

yes,there are some non-binary transsexuals like F/MtX, F/MtA or F/MtN (And others)