On passing: Overall presentation helps, but isolate the face - still passing?

[Evelyn K]

This is more of a question for non FFS passing gals here. Actually two fold.

1. If you are passing, are you passing with just your face alone (and no makeup)?

2. How many months into HRT would you say this began to happen?

It sounds like another "how long before you started passing" question, but there's an interesting common denominator being removed here. And that is overall feminine presentation. Sans the breasts, makeup (within reason), voice, all fem clothing and accessories. I want to concentrate on HRT facial changes only.

I was wondering about this all day today. The word passing gets thrown around a lot and I was curious how much was actually attributed to breasts, hair and fem presentation. I mentioned in another thread that I hold myself to a high standard regarding passing. My yardstick personally is all face, if I can be mam'ed by my facial appearance alone while wearing camoflauge waders then I can truly say I pass.

Some gals here do truly pass. These are the gals I'd like to chime in. I'd like to learn from their experience at what point in their HRT regimen did their face really start passing. But a bit of discretion and honesty is needed to keep feminine presentation bias out of it.

Any takers?

[Joan]

I'm not sure you can isolate it.

There are mannish-faced CIS women. I sometimes wonder when I see them. People less sensitive to these things than transgendered individuals like ourselves probably wonder as well. The way these women move and speak takes the doubt away.

I think overall presentation is what counts unless you're going to deliberately walk like a football player just to see if you still pass.

[Dahlia]

Some MTF look ultra femme in pictures or vids...but are unpassable IRL. Because of a huge head, thick neck, overall sizes.

A MTF face can look very femme, but it's the size of it that actually makes it passable in the final analysis.

And so called FFS procedures can make a MTF even less passable. Cheekimplants for instance, augmented lips, a too tiny nose tend to make even a cis woman's face look harsh and older and can make a MTF face look bigger too.

[HoneyStrums]

I ironic thing is.  Cis woman can look female in face, but then have femininity questioned due to manly manerisems and behavoures.  My sister long before i came out, constantly got asked if she was supposed to bé a man. And acused of it. She doesent lok like a man at all.

So passing is realy just a term for "to me all thingsd considered this person is female. But as evalyn said for people that dont know your behavoures passing is on. A basis of lookes primerily your face" now if your atractive passing gets harder because when your atractive you atract a closer inspection :p

I think what the op is trying to ask is how long if possible to determin so could people pass at a glance from a distance without interation without doubt before a closer inspection?

Passing is largely circumstantial. But maybe the main focus of this is to get an idea how long it might take before one doesnt need to take a hundred pics to get one that paases :p

[Sammy]

Since I dont wear makeup in public, all my cases of "passing" have been sans-makeup. Sometimes, while wearing the same clothing I pass without issues (even despite my voice) and then later with other people, they instantly gender me as a guy.
One common observation might be - as long as You wear stuff which would accentuate Your shape (for me its hips and butt, cause my bewbs are quite small, but noticeable when wearing only top) - so as long as those are denim capris or other stuff which also tightens around waistline, then it is almost like instant pass.
Yet, I have also passed despite deliberately wearing totally male clothes (cause I wanted to make sure that I pass as a guy to avoid awkward situation in party event) - I was gendered as female by taxi driver, but upon my introduction in the party, everyone treated me as a guy.
So I would say, it is shape first, then manners, then as they come to see You closer - facial features, haircut, then voice. If all the former are satisfactory, then having a deeper voice wont be seen as "groundbreaking" issue.

[HelloKitty]

Well, I'm an ultra femme (natural and not overdone!) so there is nothing about my personality, mannerisms or body language that ever sayanything but female. So that helps!

Now as to my face. In my avatar pic I am not wearing any makeup so you be the judge (I pass, people are completely clueless all the time.One or two rare acceptions).

I dont pass any better with makeup on but it makes me look more pretty.
I am not quite 9 months on hrt.

I passed BEFORE hrt. Just lucky I guess but back then, my hhairstyle made the difference whether I passed or not. Well, I had a wig I wore back then lol

Now, I can put my hair up and still pass.

It's all YMMV but I think it'a common for people to femininze a sufficient amount to pass, in...6-14 months or so?

[Misha]

No aesthetic surgeries besides hair multiplication in January to cover missing hair for me. And I don't plan any. Also I use very little make-up (since my eye-sight is really bad I would most likely do more damage than good) to cover gray spots after shaved of remnants of facial hair. Fortunately laser depilations make it easier and easier.

The current avatar picture you see was taken by my colleague when we were shopping last Friday. And those clothes are for occasional use so don't think I go out in that every day. That would attract way too much attention :-) . Whether it passes for you is up to you to judge. Since I can't really see myself I can't really even do that myself :-) .

My personal conclusion? No previous masculine skull or body structure. I had both a rather feminine skull and figure prior to HRT. I almost looked like a copy of my older sister. Which always incredibly confused me in the past: do I feel like a woman because I'm one or because my body looks so feminine?

EDIT: So I guess I'm just lucky...

EDIT: Removed a sentence which may be misinterpreted

[Megan Joanne]

1. If you are passing, are you passing with just your face alone (and no makeup)?

I work in retail, stocking shelves during the day, so I'm out there for all to see. When people come up to me asking where something is or if we have such and such item, I don't ever get any questioning looks to make me feel anything other than female. Even with that damn adam's apple they look me in the face and refer to me with ma'am or such respectable female pronouns. Haven't gotten a sir in ages, thank goodness (if I got one now I'd freak because I'm so sensitive a the moment). I spent several years wearing no make-up at all back in North Carolina, and aside from those that knew I was trans I rarely got any questioning stares that'd make me feel someone thought differently of my femininity, that I was a woman and not simply a feminine man. Now I wear a little bit of make-up, lipstick/lipgloss and mascara, and rarely eyeliner, that's it. But I think all that does is pretty me up more with a touch of color since otherwise my face is very bland without. While at the moment some days I feel and see a not so female face (body and everything else), like looking at a man with softer features, others don't seem to see what I sometimes do when feeling down and critical with myself.

As for my mannerism, voice, choice of clothing (though this probably wouldn't make a difference), the whole package, I feel total secure and comfortable with my passing. Just another cis-girl (seemingly) walking her dog, out shopping with her mom, or working hard like so many others. It don't matter what angle I'm seen at, front, side, behind, I don't get the wrong pronouns or strange looks anymore.

2. How many months into HRT would you say this began to happen?

Hard to recall, I never did keep any records or accounts of what happened during early transition. Less than year seems right though, being about the time I started working at a floral shop early 2002 (I started HRT in the spring 2001) and it was family owned, I was already passing most of the time, they never treated me anything other than female, if only they knew otherwise I'd probably been fired, especially with how much the owner flirted with me each day. By the next year at a video rental place I started getting asked out a lot, I turned them all down of coarse, though some were quite persistent. Always ever they would try to get me to smile, and of coarse I did, yeah, they shy girl pretending to take no interest, liked the attention despite playing impossible to get.

[Emily1996]

I think that in order to pass, it's important to pass with the face, and mannerism, I mean even if you don';t have a C cup, during the winter (no it depends where you live), since we dress more for the cold then your shapes are kind of hidden already...

[LittleEmily24]

idk, im honestly beginning to think of the notion of "passing" as arbitrary and varied by location. I've seen women who look all sorts of ways and men who look all sorts of ways ~ I guess if you live in a place filled with critical people, passing has a different definition than if it would in a place with people who are not so mini-detail oriented. I'm sure what is passing in Rhode Island might not even come close to passing in California.

I've been ma'amed before without make up and with a shadow showing, and i've been sir'd before with an impeccable make up job. Alternatively i've also gone out with my wife and been referred to as "ladies" while in a mostly andro-ish outfit (jeans and a t-shirt), and I've gone out in my best dress, best shoes, best makeup and best hair-do and been called "sir" directly...

What is passing? I don't even know anymore. Pre-HRT, i went to a halloween thing dressed as little red riding hood with a wig, mediocre make up job, obviously male features, no voice practice... and had 4-5 guys dance with me and think I was female... fast forward to now and guys avoid me or ignore me like they're afraid of me, and I look way more female than I did 4 months ago.

If it's any help ~ maybe self-perception plays a bigger role than we allow ourselves to believe... the last couple of days since leaving/returning to/from Key West, i've been leaving my house under the mental motivation and impression that "i've always been female, today is just another day", and so far its been good... even went to the gym feeling like I looked like ->-bleeped-<-, and the SAME guy who sir'd me without even looking at me in that post i made not too long ago, referred to both me and my wife as "ladies"... so honestly, the whole "passing" thing to me is a catch 22... as long as i'm not discriminated against, i'll just go with the flow because honestly, the passing thing has made me mentally exhausted, you can't keep track of it all and you can't please anyone. So i've ultimately gathered that If you feel like you pass, then you pass (can't say the same applies in reverse though... some people who think they don't pass turn out to pass very well but can't see it)

as for mannerisms ~ well, having been close friend with primarily women all my life, i've met girls who should have been guys because they stomp when they walk, slouch, speak in sluggish male tones and even have visible facial hair.... never misgendered (at least not when i hung out with them). So again, its just too exhausting a concept, if you believe you pass; then perhaps your "passing" energy, will convince others that you pass.

buuuuuuuut thats just my opinion I guess if i were going on an actual appearance guideline ~ my passing achievement will be awarded to me the day that men start talking to me like i'm a woman, and not treating me like im some sort of ticking politically correct time bomb, or if they stop ignoring me lol... I think that might be a pretty good indicator that I "pass".

[Carrie Liz]

Seeing as how I pretty much followed the "I'll go full-time once I'm male-failing" regime, I can definitely give you at least one data point here.

I started being gendered female for the very first time, despite wearing men's pants, men's shoes, and a completely unisex work top, at pretty much exactly the 1-year mark. It would happen maybe once a week or so, a random person would call me "miss" or "she." As I was nearing the beginning of the 14-month mark, I was starting to be gendered female several times a day, and most people that I'd never met before were asking me what my name was before gendering me. (And this was despite being forced to completely hide my long hair, tucking it under so that it wasn't even visible.) So yeah... my face was read as female by someone for the first time at 12 months, and then it crossed over such that most people were gendering me female around 14 months.

At that point, I was fired from my job, so I went full-time, and started wearing more feminine clothes, and pretty much immediately began to be gendered female close to 100% of the time, so that's all I can say on the matter. I still have a long way to go, mainly my hair, but I've reached the point where I can go through an average day now, wearing only androgynously-female clothes and no makeup, and expect to not get gendered male by anyone.

I didn't start transition with long hair like others do, so that has admittedly really held me back from passing sooner, but from watching others' transition videos, the one-year mark does indeed seem to be the point where one's face really hits the crossover mark and starts looking more female than male, depending on age, genetics, and how many bony masculine features once's face has. And the 1-2 year transition timeline is where everything really starts rounding out and settling into a more or less completely-feminine appearance. (Again, depending on age, bone structure, and genetics.)

[Lady_Oracle]

1. If you are passing, are you passing with just your face alone (and no makeup)?

Yes, the only makeup I wear if I do is eyeliner and sometimes foundation to cover the dark spots under my eyes.


2. How many months into HRT would you say this began to happen?

about 12 to 18 months

I'd say voice is number one and that took me out about 2 years to train and now have an awesome fem voice. I sound like my younger sister. I'm at the point where I can wear whatever I want and still be gendered correctly finally.

[ZoeM]

My turning point was somewhere around the 5-6 month mark. I began passing in a sweater I'd had since I was 16-ish, two months before I went "full time".
As for my face, I'm pretty sure it was on track at that point or before. I was always impressed with how my face looked in the mirror, even when the rest of me was fat and ugly.
Since then I've gone out makeup-free all the time and never had a problem.

[Joanna Dark]

As far as the face, I started passing around 3 or so months into HRT. But it was iffy. My face changes a lot. But I pass(ed) facially, within a year all the time, without makeup (even with shadow) but then people would say "Why does you girlfriend have facial hair?" If I wear makeup, I pass no matter what, all the time. I know this cause I have a discount card for public transportation and I'm not allowed to use the card in that case.

As far as body, I have a femme body: I'm 5'6, 120 lbs, 13 inch shoulder with small hand,  no adam's apple, and I'm tiny. My boobs are like a 32D.

Basically, i pass as a woman or a trans woman no matter what. I can be wearing very manish/boyish clothes and stillpeople think I'm a woman. It makes it very awkward when I have to show my ID. But within a year. But I've only been on a transitioning doe of HRT for nine months. Before the it was very low dose.

[Jenna Marie]

Around six months on HRT, I went to a hockey game in men's jeans, combat boots, T-shirt with hockey jersey on over it, baseball cap over ponytail, no makeup. Basically, the best guy drag I could manage, because I wanted to get a beer there, and I knew they checked IDs.

They refused to sell to me and said my driver's license that said "male" was not me, and to go get my brother and make him use his own darned license to buy for us. I gotta assume that's a serious male fail.

I still managed to pass as male with people who knew me previously for a little while longer, but that was the last time I expected to be able to fool strangers (and my last "sir" was shortly thereafter).

[Ashey]

I started HRT around mid-October 2013, and I was passing half-time by mid-January 2014. The turning point there was when I got my eyebrows waxed. xD That really totally changed everything for some reason. It's tricky to narrow it all down though, but I think earlier in January I got my first ma'am since starting to transition, and that was with guy clothes on and carrying a small purse (and I had longish hair). And that was even talking like a guy. Surprised me a lot, but it happened. After that it was hit or miss, but there was a point where I realized I passed as long as I didn't say anything, so it was only my voice that was giving me away. If I didn't talk or if I faked a feminine voice, I passed consistently. By March, I went full-time and haven't been sir'd since. I've gotten better with my voice too, and now it's full-time as well. It all happened pretty quickly but I think that January and February where were I shifted into 'male-fail', and actually had a difficult time with deciding to go out as a guy or a girl because it was about as much effort to look like a guy at that point. That was actually probably the worst part, because I hated the inconsistency, and that's probably what drove me to go full-time.

Now, I've only recently started going out with makeup on. Before that, I'd be plain-faced and passed just fine. And passing to me is just getting ma'am'd consistently by everyone and not getting any weird looks. I blend in just fine. I've traveled across the state and been to quite a lot of places, been to various stores shopping for women's clothing, gotten my nails done twice (in a room full of women, actually talking with them), been to the beach, used various women's restrooms, and went to a theme-park with hundreds of people around me. In all these places, I've never had any confrontations, weird looks, never got sir'd, never had any problems. In fact, I've even gotten some compliments. Astounds me every time that I pass in all these instances.. Heh, and at the theme-park, I went on rollercoasters and saw my pic afterwards. Still passed! xD I was actually quite surprised that I still looked female even making a weird face and fighting g-forces. What I noticed was that my face looked rounded, and appropriately fatty. My makeup was subtle so couldn't really be seen in those pics, so I'd say it was all just the shape of my face and maybe some undefinable quality. Part of this I'm sure is due to HRT, and part of it is probably genetics and luck. But yes, I do pass fine without makeup and probably in guy clothes as well. And if I held my hand over my crotch, I could probably pass nakey too. xD

I have wondered about all this though. I think people pick up on different things, and hopefully you have enough of those things to consistently pass. Body, face, makeup, purse, hair, clothes, walk, talk, gestures and other body language, scent?, attitude, confidence.. there are a lot of things one can pick up on, and go by to gender someone. Really, I sometimes feel I get gendered as female because of simple things, like carrying a purse. As long as you don't go out of your way to seem masculine, I think obviously feminine things like that are enough to pass with. Of course, I could be wrong. Please don't go testing my theory if you aren't confident.

[Lady_Oracle]

Yeah pretty much everything what ashey said I found to be true. For the longest time I thought I wouldn't be gendered correctly if I didn't wear makeup cause my beard shadow was really heavy. But despite that I would still get gendered correctly even in male clothes. Now 5 sessions of laser later its like not even a worry about someone clocking me. I guess it was more of a personal thing really. My confidence has gone from like a 2 to 100 since I began laser.

I was presenting half time prehrt and would go out presenting as female and back then I'd get the stares and weird looks lol. I found some guys checking me out too, it was a strange time. Either way, passing has so many variables to it. But like I said in my earlier post, voice is number 1 to get down. If you have that then you're set mostly. Feminine and Masculine mannerisms aren't a super big deal imo. I'd say thats the least thing someone should be concerned about when it comes to passing. Since both men and women have mannerisms that aren't super fem or masculine. If it's forced it'll just raise a red flag for everyone.

As far as the face, I started passing around 3 or so months into HRT. But it was iffy. My face changes a lot. But I pass(ed) facially, within a year all the time, without makeup (even with shadow) but then people would say "Why does you girlfriend have facial hair?" If I wear makeup, I pass no matter what, all the time. I know this cause I have a discount card for public transportation and I'm not allowed to use the card in that case.

As far as body, I have a femme body: I'm 5'6, 120 lbs, 13 inch shoulder with small hand,  no adam's apple, and I'm tiny. My boobs are like a 32D.

Basically, i pass as a woman or a trans woman no matter what. I can be wearing very manish/boyish clothes and stillpeople think I'm a woman. It makes it very awkward when I have to show my ID. But within a year. But I've only been on a transitioning doe of HRT for nine months. Before the it was very low dose.

ugh yeah I know that ID awkwardness all too well. I'm excited since I'm finally about to fix all of that, been putting it off for certain reasons. Once I do I shall finally be free to do what I want without having to worry about the legal stuff.

[Ashey]

For the longest time I thought I wouldn't be gendered correctly if I didn't wear makeup cause my beard shadow was really heavy. But despite that I would still get gendered correctly even in male clothes. Now 5 sessions of laser later its like not even a worry about someone clocking me. I guess it was more of a personal thing really, my confidence has gone from like a 2 to 100 since I began laser.

Oh yes.. I will add that I got rid of the majority of what little facial hair I had in the first laser session, but for a while I still had an upper lip shadow. >_< That drove me crazy! But even then I still passed. So I went through stages regarding my passability with that; paranoia, then skepticism, and finally acceptance. It's faded a lot by now, still slightly present, but I don't think about it most of the time. If I want to feel extra-passable I throw some concealer over it. But really, I don't think I'd get clocked over it anyway since A) I'm half-Cuban and so a bit of an upper-lip shadow or some stray hair might not be as abnormal, and B) some women have hormonal issues regardless of their heritage. So if someone were to clock me over that, I'd consider them very rude and insensitive, so I'm not going to give any credence to what they say. But that's some leftover paranoia. In reality, who's honestly going to say 'you're not a woman, look at your upper-lip shadow!' Maybe on the interwebs, but not to my face.. Seriously Ashley.. -_-

[Lady_Oracle]

haha exactly ashey! Still though, I live in the south so my paranoia still runs a bit high sometimes *shrugs

I'm a 100% puerto rican (super hairy family basically) and one of my cousins had lots of upper lip hair that she never shaved but despite that she had a ton of confidence and it never got in her way.

[sad panda]

When I have seen trans women who didn't pass in public, the first thing that I notice is never their face. Unfortunately, I think what Dahlia said is true. It's a lot about proportions and just basically not looking somehow off.