so what would be the rational legal definition

[stephaniec]

so just to clear the argument of what constitutes being transgender legally would be defined as any one who is pre op would be transgender under law and any one who has been through the operation is female or male. Just wondering if for all practical purposes the umbrella stops at the operation and is this the way it should be , even through everyone has the given right to live the way they choose to.

[mrs izzy]

Me i was and always been Human.

Society wants to label everything.

Me if we must label i was a person who had GD. Now i am just a person who no longer has GD.

Isabell

[stephaniec]

makes sense

[stephaniec]

It's probably a better way to define as having or not having GD

[AnnaCannibal]

Legally speaking, I believe it varies from state to state in the US.  Some states require you to have surgery before legal status is given, some don't.  I don't know about the rest of our wonderful world though.

[Carrie Liz]

I don't know if this is country-wide, but in Ohio all I had to do was have my therapist fill out a form that stated what my birth gender was, what her professional opinion on what my identity gender was, and whether I was either "in transition" or my gender change was "complete," which may or may not lead to further surgical intervention.

Basically, with the provisions being proposed by trans advocacy groups, once your therapist deems that you're ready to have your gender marker changed, you can change it. If the change is deemed to be "in transition," it changes your gender marker, but you have to get it updated every time you renew your license, where if it is deemed "complete," (which means that you're full-time and not going back, regardless of surgical status,) it changes it permanently.

Basically, by the legal definition, regardless of your operation status, you can be either just male or just female, as long as a medical professional can verify this identity. (They have to put their license # on the form.)

[Randi]

I'm so glad the legislatures and courts have stayed away from these definitions.

Personally, I don't think any transition is so complete and perfect that you are no longer transgender.  The dysphoria may go away, and things may be better all around, but you still made the journey.

[Misha]

Our Czech legislation covers this in quite some detail. For the transition period shortly before starting HRT and ending with SRS there's a special zone in our laws. And to explain Czech birth numbers (something like social security number in the US) contain information about legal sex in the third digit.

So it pretty much goes like this:

1.) Therapist writes a recommendation to birth registrar for name change to "neutral form" first. Legal sex remain the same but the purpose of this is that one sex can't be identified from the name (which is otherwise very easy in Czech language given how surname grammar works).

2.) Unless the selected name is rejected all legal records with original name are replaced and new birth certificate is issued. You could practically say that old identity is erased. As mentioned, legal sex remain the same though as is still present on the birth certificate.

3.) After SRS the therapist writes another recommendation for second name change, issuing a new birth number and full conversion of legal sex. The birth number change along with conversion of legal sex is processed at the Home Office. Name change by the birth registrar.

4.) After like a month of bureaucracy only the new identity exists with the only record of sex change being a small note in the book of births in your birth town to which the access is highly restricted. Once processed everything is recorded and looks as if you were already born as a member of that sex.

Before I forget: given the legal sex conversion an existing marriage prior to HRT start must be divorced and new one must not be made until the conversion. I've also read that some therapists demand that should patient have a child that the parent-ship is voided but that is not in the law and general advice is to seek another therapist.

EDIT: One interesting additional note. My therapist told me this process is based on possibility to change legal sex which was introduced in our part of Central Europe in 18th century by a ruling lady who had like 20 kids. So I guess one of her children shared our problem. I didn't do additional research so it might as well be a fictional story though.

EDIT 2: Added an extra paragraph

[Paulagirl]

Canada is such a forward thinking place. Essentially, though there are some easily surmounted loopholes, your legal sex is what you say it is.
Sounds overly simple, because to change all your documentation you have to get a Doctor or therapist to sign off that they agree you say what you are, but...many WILL, on your first meeting. My best girlfriend got her gender letter from her Doctor the day she was prescribed HRT. I waited, out of misplaced courtesy, but it was easy. Essentially, in Canada, we can say 'Hey, Ottawa (the nations capitol) I'm a girl', and they respond 'Okay, here's your new I.D.'.

[EmoAlice]

Canada is such a forward thinking place. Essentially, though there are some easily surmounted loopholes, your legal sex is what you say it is.
Sounds overly simple, because to change all your documentation you have to get a Doctor or therapist to sign off that they agree you say what you are, but...many WILL, on your first meeting. My best girlfriend got her gender letter from her Doctor the day she was prescribed HRT. I waited, out of misplaced courtesy, but it was easy. Essentially, in Canada, we can say 'Hey, Ottawa (the nations capitol) I'm a girl', and they respond 'Okay, here's your new I.D.'.

The laws for this are not nation wide, it's under provincial law.  Not all provinces have it this easy.  Getting there though.

[LittleEmily24]

I feel that our gender shouldn't be a product of our genitals.... because calling a woman who has a penis a man is about as logical as calling a cismale a woman if he loses his junk in a car accident... its just as arbitrary.

Though in terms of legality, i think it varies ~ I am able to legally change my gender marker by simply having a letter from my endo. I'm sure that US Database-wise i'll either always be male, or stay male until the operation, but if I change my gender marker in FL to F, i'm pretty sure it applies anywhere I go; I was actually in shock to see how easy it is.

Though to be honest, im not sure if gender marker is truly just changing a letter without any actual meaning... idk if that means i'd be able to change my gender on other things , but i guess i'll just have to wait and see

[stephaniec]

good to know, didn't know just the letter from the doctor was the main ingredient