Early coming out / male socialisation / expectations to behave like a woman?

[spacerace]

Another thing is that identification influences your socialisation. Imitation is social learning, and as a child you have a certain control over what you imitate and what not (provided your families gives you freedom to do that).

This is an interesting point because it also has implications for people who found themselves socialized as female. If someone knew the world saw them as female and felt pushed into acting out that role as they were a kid and entered puberty, attempts at imitation in the context of social learning could actually be difficult and come across as inauthentic; the imitation could never be processed and made into something that was truly their own.

Unfortunately, I think this was true for myself - I was always faking what I was supposed to be and could never build the right foundation because I kept trying to fulfill the social roles expected of the other gender. I failed miserably at it.

I think there is just something fundamentally mismatched, no matter the socialization. People socialized female might be able to fake it better though.

[sad panda]

This has obviously gone off on a tangent, and I'm not quite sure why. Is it a sensitive topic?

Socialisation is not a static, monolithic thing, it depends vastly on the environment and culture and that can change too. I know trans people who spent their whole childhood passing until puberty in the "other" gender role, with everybody assuming them to be their internal gender. Their socialisation might not have been 100% male or female because their parents knew about the situation, but nobody else did.
Their socialisation was noticably different from what others have experienced. These people function very differently on a social level, even if they were later on forced to live as their assigned gender.

I also know people who are not trans who have at least partial "cross" socialisation, for example if they grew up with only men or only women.

Children being raised as the "other" gender when there is a social need for a male or female person in the community (families without sons etc), is still very common in rural areas (I'm not from the US). In my family, one girl was raised mainly in the male role because of that. This was accepted and supported by the rural community.
She IDs as female, but functions *very* differently from women on a social level. See also the sworn virgins of Albania who do not ID as trans. They were mostly male socialized.

Another thing is that identification influences your socialisation. Imitation is social learning, and as a child you have a certain control over what you imitate and what not (provided your families gives you freedom to do that).

So I just don't see how you can say it's black or white with socialisation. All socialisation is a mix, some are more common while others are very unusual. 

And now I have forgotten what my initial question was

Well I agree with you on a lot of those points, but I just don't think, beyond actually being perceived as the opposite sex from childhood on, that the effect is similar to anything you could call a "cross-socialization," and I think it's only a sensitive topic because people need to be aware of socialization to stop perpetuating it. Calling yourself male socialized is sweeping a lot of things under the rug, y'know? Like injustices of both male and female socializations.

I think also, a lot of people are tempted to say, "I didn't understand girls/female culture, I was male socialized," b/c it's kind of validating, but again it is also validating and reinforcing that culture, as if just having been like them would make it an appropriate socialization, rather than recognizing that that culture can be exclusivist and stifling of womens' individuality. A lot of female-identifying FAAB people struggle with talking to and "acting like women" and being in groups with women simply because that social space does not value individuality and the more broad range of personalities of FAAB people. It's diminishing even to the people who appear to fit into it, and having to choose between that and being labeled as a tomboy and as unfeminine is one bad thing about female socialization. A lot of women-identified FAAB people who went through that feel and internalize the idea that they are masculine and inferior only because they struggled to adopt a stereotype-ridden, fake, overt femininity--they don't celebrate or even recognize their true femininity, cuz they have conflated femininity with various levels of some beauty queen archetype.

[Bombadil]

I am not going to say I was male or female socialized.

I do think it was interesting that what sad panda described is what I experienced. That need to prove myself I know well. In fact, I felt that because I was FAAB I had to prove myself even more. Where sometimes a MAAB might be given a bit of slack, I was not because I was FAAB.

I am sorry if I'm continuing that tangent, I just really found it interesting because that need to constantly prove myself, to be "tough", etc was such a huge influence on who I am today.

My brother had a violent temper. He was bigger than all the other kids and could be quite aggressive. Kids were scared of him, with good reason. One of the ways I would get accepted by the boys is he would rough me up hard enough to leave bruises and no matter how much it hurt I would laugh. That's how I proved I was one of the boys.

Again I'm staying out of the "socialized" debate by and large but you all took me down memory lane

[Bunter]

Sad Panda-
I don't have time right now to get more deeply into this, but my problem with your arguments is that you assume that everybody internationally has a roughly similar environment, and male and female socialisation are basically the same thing everywhere.
For example, where I grew up, "beauty queen" standards where virtually unknown, or if know, they were seen as ridiculous. Women were mostly expected to work physically and hard, not to look good.

Why is it such a problem to say that someone had "male socialisation". If someone is hanging out a lot with boys and men, that person is bound to pick up a lot of behaviour patterns, speech pattern etc of men, also the lack of social contact with girls and women can lead to a lack of knowledge about female social behaviour, which in turn can lead to integration problems with female groups.
Male or female socialisation are not some magical essential thing for me, but a huge mass of different elements that can come in all types of mixes.

I'd really like to return this thread to the initial intention of discussing social integration problems. not in the sense of boasting about masculinity or "realness", but as a serious discussion about the social problems that can come out of such a social constellation when one is not (yet) transitioning and has to navigate job situations etc. I'm addressing people who have actually had "different" childhood and youth upbringings.
(also I'm not claiming that socialisation makes you more or less trans, if that's the problem here. I believe that socialisation mostly just happens to you, depending on the environment.)

MTF are also invited to discuss their integration problems pre-/non-transition.

[sad panda]

Ahh, I'm really sorry if I derailed the thread!! I'll shut up XD

[Ephemeral]

What does male socialization even refer to this context? Socialization as in being socially read as male and therefore having to live up to expectations of masculinity as opposed to femininity? Because I otherwise fit the bill quite well because I had male friends as a young child (I think I actually preferred them but this is very hazy as I became very socially withdrawn past the age of 6), male interests etc, though I didn't dress in boy's clothing. Always been more drawn towards doing "male things" though overall and I totally get feeling awkward with female groups and female socialization as in how you are expected to behave in female-only groups etc. I agree that butch is still female at its core, they just look more male. There is a distinct difference between butch and transmen, definitely.

Most of all though, I think what is a really striking feature in my life almost more so than how I felt about my body is that I always felt awkward in female social roles, female socialization as a whole, etc. None of those things never quite felt like me. While one can argue that I lacked a female role model in my life in that my mom died when I was 6 years old, I did have my grandmother and later stepmom so I can't say that's quite true, personally. There were women in my life I could turn to if I wanted, but at some point I did feel I fell much more closely to a male spectrum than female. I just thought I was an atypical female/tomboy for a very long time but I wasn't happy being one. I think that is an important distinction to make, because there are otherwise FAABs who most definitely experience themselves as atypical but they do not relate to this to their gender identity per se.

I think this is probably quite common as an experience among most transmen, and I definitely looked up to my dad despite, I should add, being very physically and socially distant in my life, than I did to the women who were present. I always felt like I "got" male group socialization more than I did female despite never being an explicit part of any male social circle aside a forum I trolled for a while in my teens where I never told the people in there my gender, so they assumed I was a guy and I participated in typical male group talk (there's a difference, definitely).

[Bunter]

What does male socialization even refer to this context?

I'm talking about people who have at least partially socially transitioned in their childhood or early teens and lived in male social environments for a prolonged period.

Meaning, constantly worn clothes of the "other" gender, being read as the "other" gender by strangers, hung out with peer groups of the "other" gender and more or less no contact to groups of the assigned gender. Maybe name change, and getting the constant feedback that one is very "different" (when people know about the assigned gender).

I just want to share experiences with people about managing that "other" socialisation when you are not (yet) transitioned and have to present/integrate as female socially, for example at work or in larger social groups.
I'm not talking about clothes, or having to straight-act.

I'm talking about the problems that happen when you behave in a way that would be normal in a male group and is seen as completely inappropriate in a female group (or vice versa) and you can't control it because you're not even aware that you have "male behaviour". 

[Declan.]

I've tried to post about this in another sub forum, but I don't seem to find people who are in my situation.

So again-

I'm looking for people who came out early and/or had an early male socialization (hanging out only with boys + few or no female friends + all male groups later on + "male" interests and behavior or speech patterns).
Basically, you don't know how to properly speak "girl", don't understand girl, feel really awkward in all-female groups (even all-butch groups), while all-male groups (either straight or gay) are no problem, etc.

*and* you are not an early transitioner, that is, you have/had to live with a male socialization while people think you are an adult female.

If you know what I'm talking about, please post.

This fits my experience, except I'm not sure I count as far as late transition goes. I began medically transitioning when I was 22.

This thread blew up as I expected it would, but I was socialized more as a male than a female. I wasn't particularly socialized as either, but because I was so masculine, that's how I was raised. Generally speaking, we don't have gender roles/expectations here. There are still people who are "stereotypically masculine" and "stereotypically feminine," but it's not expected to behave a certain way. You are who you are.

I had some friends that were girls, but most of my best friends were guys. We all did the same stuff together. Played Pokemon and caught frogs in the woods. If you couldn't see or hear people here, you wouldn't be able to tell who's male and who's female. It's very "blurred" compared to the rest of the country.

Men and women share the same physical jobs, the same corporate jobs, the same teaching jobs. Most of the people in high positions here tend to be female, actually. Most of our teachers and principals are women too. About half our police officers and firefighters are women. Lots of stay-at-home dads, or they share the job. The "beauty queen" standard is something I never even heard of. Nobody - male or female - is raised to repress their feelings or act a certain way. Women open the door for men, and the other way around. The server puts the receipt for a date in the middle of the table instead of giving it to the man when it's a straight couple, and so on. No one cares.

I went to the south for a year when I was 13 and was in for a horrible treat. The gender expectations and gender roles were oppressive in a way I couldn't imagine. I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around it.

Edit: Just saw you're from Europe. That might explain why we had similar experiences. I live in a borderline rural part of New England, which is very similar to Europe as far as culture goes, and both regions are largely progressive.

[Silver Centurion]

I'm talking about people who have at least partially socially transitioned in their childhood or early teens and lived in male social environments for a prolonged period.

Meaning, constantly worn clothes of the "other" gender, being read as the "other" gender by strangers, hung out with peer groups of the "other" gender and more or less no contact to groups of the assigned gender. Maybe name change, and getting the constant feedback that one is very "different" (when people know about the assigned gender).

This is pretty much me. I grew up on several military bases with a drill instructor for a father and by the time I was four I pretty much refused to do anything remotely feminine which didn't please my mom all that much. There were struggles with how I was raised and it escalated the older I got because of what I was into, how i presented and people constantly assuming I was male then going  when they were told my name or that I was a girl (I never told people I was a girl). I wish I could help you with the rest of your question Bunter but I don't socialize with women all that often. I am literally the odd man out in that situation because I just don't fit in with what they wish to talk about or even how the group speaks. I end up feeling terribly uncomfortable and wanting to bail. The women that do hang out with me know that I'm more than likely going to bail on them the second the boyfriends/husbands show up and they're cool with that.

[Bunter]

Hey,

so do you hang out with the  guys then?
At work, when I'm longer at one job, with the same team, the men usually understand I belong to them, and include me without discussion.
The problem is when I have to mingle with people that don't know me well, or customers and so on.
It's just really difficult either way I try to manage this-

The men feel uncomfortable at first when I come to their groups (a woman in the room! Stop the tits talk!! ) --> awkward!!
When I try to fake it with the women, they sense it's fake, and I make many social mistakes anyways. --> more awkward!!
When I just keep to myself people think I'm impolite/weird. --> equally awkward.

All is also problematic for career stuff.

[Silver Centurion]

Hey,

so do you hang out with the  guys then?
At work, when I'm longer at one job, with the same team, the men usually understand I belong to them, and include me without discussion.
The problem is when I have to mingle with people that don't know me well, or customers and so on.
It's just really difficult either way I try to manage this-

The men feel uncomfortable at first when I come to their groups (a woman in the room! Stop the tits talk!! ) --> awkward!!
When I try to fake it with the women, they sense it's fake, and I make many social mistakes anyways. --> more awkward!!
When I just keep to myself people think I'm impolite/weird. --> equally awkward.

All is also problematic for career stuff.

I do hang out with guys primarily. I work with male lab partners at university and hang out with them outside of class. I socialize with the dads of my sons football team and have for years. I have a few tomboy friends and go to a FTM group as often as I can.

Forgive me but I'm a little confused. So the people you work with have accepted you as yourself which is awesome but it is strangers that is causing the issue? I think the best thing is to just present yourself as you are. If you're trying to fake something it's probably never going to work like the situation with socializing with the wimmenz. It's just my opinion but if you want to hang out with women just hang out and don't try to conform to anything. From what I've read I'm assuming that you're not presenting as male if they know you are female but if I'm wrong please correct me. The same sort of thing goes with engaging men socially. Just be yourself and that will remove a lot of awkward and the more they become comfortable with you the more natural things will become.  I suck at trying to put things the right way but there is truth in that men will tone down conversation and change how they behave if they know there is a woman among them. If you're transitioning at all socializing as a man will change that dynamic.

[Bunter]

I do hang out with guys primarily. I work with male lab partners at university and hang out with them outside of class. I socialize with the dads of my sons football team and have for years. I have a few tomboy friends and go to a FTM group as often as I can.

Forgive me but I'm a little confused. So the people you work with have accepted you as yourself which is awesome but it is strangers that is causing the issue? I think the best thing is to just present yourself as you are. If you're trying to fake something it's probably never going to work like the situation with socializing with the wimmenz. It's just my opinion but if you want to hang out with women just hang out and don't try to conform to anything. From what I've read I'm assuming that you're not presenting as male if they know you are female but if I'm wrong please correct me. The same sort of thing goes with engaging men socially. Just be yourself and that will remove a lot of awkward and the more they become comfortable with you the more natural things will become.  I suck at trying to put things the right way but there is truth in that men will tone down conversation and change how they behave if they know there is a woman among them. If you're transitioning at all socializing as a man will change that dynamic.

My job requires that I change teams or that new people come in a lot. Also I have customer contact.
In my old firm, I kept to myself mostly, but after a couple of years, the men knew me well enough to include me automatically.
But this doesn't happen when I have to work at different places, where people are just weirded out when I go and join the all male groups during breaks instead of the all-female groups, and so on. It's just not done.

The situation seems to get worse the older I get- a 20 year old "tomboy" is accepted in all male groups much more easily than a person that's going 40 or older.

I don't want to hang out with the female groups at work, but I feel they take it personally if I don't join in with their chit chat. This doesn't help with my career chances esp. with female superiors.
So I make an effort to participate when they include me. But I'm just no good at it.

So you could say, most men accept me after getting to know me (apart from the queer bashers), they recognize that I can interact with them on a male/male level, but the women (no matter if straight or lesbian) don't accept that I prefer male company, or even understand the situation.
And when I come to new groups where the men don't know me, I'm really the square peg.

I have had this recurring experience with women (no matter if gay or straight) that they want to include me, and if I don't manage to join in with them, they get miffed, no matter what I do. Even if I say I feel I don't belong they get pissed, so I just can't win ;-)

As I said this is something that has gotten worse the older I got, as if people can accept variance in youth but from a certain age, you need to be one or the other.

Also the older groups are more gender segregated again (compared to 20-somethings).

I'm really surprised that nobody seems to have social problems when they don't follow the gender rules.
Because the world seems to be organized pretty much along gender lines.

Another example: Very few women have close male friends. A problem that comes from that is that the wives of my straight male friends see me as a threat because I bond with their husbands in a way that a "woman" just isn't supposed to do.
I share their husband's interests and hobbies and speak the same language. I've had two wives of close male friends throw fits during the last years because they were jealous of me (despite the fact that I'm mostly seen as lesbian, i.e. no threat). 

Btw. a trans male friend of mine works in a lab too, and even before transitioning this seems to have been a really good place for him (Mostly male scientists, but not macho).

[Silver Centurion]

There's definitely a lot going on in your workplace. Seems odd that there's such a segregation of gender at your workplace. I've never experienced something quite like that so I don't know what to say. Not to say that it doesn't exist but even at the university level it exists to some extent. For example on the first day of lab there are often tables that fill up with all men and all women before the rest are left sitting at the remaining tables. Do you really care about what the women think though? I know you've said you're uncomfortable socializing with them. It might be time to just engage the men at your work and be polite with the women you work with to keep a positive environment. Maybe sit down with your supervisor and bring up the troubles you are having to get their input.

I don't think the age thing really matters either. A tomboy is a tomboy no matter the age. My mother knows a few that are well into their 50s and do just fine among men and women. It really depends on the person and the circles they hang out in. You mentioned women getting jealous and such and that's really their being insecure. It's a sad state of affairs but it happens. You know the saying: You can't please everybody all the time? That seems to apply to your situation Bunter. You gotta figure out what's best for you and find a way to get through to those that react poorly. Have you thought about hooking up with a therapist to tell them about the social struggles you are having to see if they can give you any ideas on how to work through it? I really wish I could be of more help but I haven't really come up against the situation you have at your work.

[Bunter]

There's definitely a lot going on in your workplace. Seems odd that there's such a segregation of gender at your workplace. I've never experienced something quite like that so I don't know what to say. Not to say that it doesn't exist but even at the university level it exists to some extent. For example on the first day of lab there are often tables that fill up with all men and all women before the rest are left sitting at the remaining tables. Do you really care about what the women think though? I know you've said you're uncomfortable socializing with them. It might be time to just engage the men at your work and be polite with the women you work with to keep a positive environment. Maybe sit down with your supervisor and bring up the troubles you are having to get their input.

I don't think the age thing really matters either. A tomboy is a tomboy no matter the age. My mother knows a few that are well into their 50s and do just fine among men and women. It really depends on the person and the circles they hang out in. You mentioned women getting jealous and such and that's really their being insecure. It's a sad state of affairs but it happens. You know the saying: You can't please everybody all the time? That seems to apply to your situation Bunter. You gotta figure out what's best for you and find a way to get through to those that react poorly. Have you thought about hooking up with a therapist to tell them about the social struggles you are having to see if they can give you any ideas on how to work through it? I really wish I could be of more help but I haven't really come up against the situation you have at your work.

Short answer, maybe more later-

I haven't experienced the gender segregation so much in the past (at university etc), but it's getting more and more. Men and women cluster a lot at normal jobs, at partys, etc.

With the men (as long as they aren't queer haters), they just see that I'm different, and come to me after a while. My uncle has been bonding over "male stuff" with me recently because he feels lonely as the only guy in his all-female family (we had a discussion about this and he counted me into the male category, even though he doesn't know I'm trans).

But when I try to talk with women about what's going on, they always take it as some king of "do you think you're better than us?" "you're only making this up, there are not big differences between men and women" and so on. But I don't think I'm better, and I'm not making this up.

There are also some "men are dumb/yucky/a nuisance, and you're a traitor if you don't bond with us against them" elements thrown in.

From my experience, even most lesbian butches cluster in female groups and do the male-bashing.
E.g. when they are joking "men are such oafs, they do this and that" and want me to participate, I'm in trouble because I do the same things. 
When I tell them that - *awkward silence*.  So I just shut up.

We don't have the whole tomboy terminology over here. Tomboys would just be seen as normal women.