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why do you think the non-trans have such a hard time understanding the trans

Started by stephaniec, July 12, 2014, 01:36:58 PM

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stephaniec

just curious if anybody can put a clear finger on why the transgender is so misunderstood. is it a form of racism or genetic discrimination or societies  morality standards etc.
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PoeticHeart

I think issues like this are intersectional, with many meeting causes bringing about one effect.

The biggest one I would say would be the lack of comparable experience. They simply have no point of reference for what it's like to experience dysphoria and therefore, find it easier to discriminate due to a lack of empathy.
"I knew what I had to do and I made myself this solemn vow: that I's gonna be a lady someday. Though I didn't know when or how." - Fancy by Reba McEntire
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RosieD

Are you asking why cis-folk have troubles understanding trans-folk or why they have to be impolite about it?  I ask as the title and the question seem, to my limited comprehensive abilities, to be asking two different things.

If it's the former then I am not sure that anyone entirely understands anyone else regardless of any commonalities they may have.  If it's the latter, that's cultural.  I get very little (as in two VERY minor incidents in over two years) any abuse here in the UK.  It seems (to an outsider at least) that folk in the US are more ready to be unpleasant.

Rosie
Well that was fun! What's next?
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stephaniec

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mrs izzy

The umbrella term is whats making so much trouble.

To many different negative looks of what is seen as trans and how trans act.

GD needs somehow a way to break out away from the umbrella.

I always hated the term transgender but i had to use it. Do not get me started on the word ->-bleeped-<-, WTF

My nickels worth.


Izzy
Mrs. Izzy
Trans lifeline US 877-565-8860 CAD 877-330-6366 http://www.translifeline.org/
"Those who matter will never judge, this is my given path to walk in life and you have no right to judge"

I used to be grounded but now I can fly.
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Jill F

Apathy and ignorance are usually enough to make the rest of the dominoes fall against us.

If you don't care, you won't care to understand.  People fear what they can't understand, and people too often hate what they fear.
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sad panda

I'm confused? How is it misunderstood?

In my experience cis people have been a lot more understanding of my own transition than I personally have. Cis people have always accepted me, but I can't accept me. :-\

Maybe they just don't understand why a lot of trans people don't really fit in with their new gender roles? They judge other cis people like that too anyway.
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stephaniec

Quote from: sad panda on July 12, 2014, 03:02:41 PM
I'm confused? How is it misunderstood?

In my experience cis people have been a lot more understanding of my own transition than I personally have. Cis people have always accepted me, but I can't accept me. :-\

Maybe they just don't understand why a lot of trans people don't really fit in with their new gender roles? They judge other cis people like that too anyway.
I was just wondering because of the everyday conflicts that pop up in the news about transgender issues in high schools and discrimination issues in the work place and assorted legal issues and the murders that happen. third world countries have a big issue with tans people. Issues popping up about choice of bathrooms etc. why is trans even an issue in the perception of others, not all others , but it is an issue. Some trans are terrified of even walking around and being seen as trans.
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Umiko

from my experience its religious belief. my friend thinks i'm just mentally ill and that seeing a psychiatrist would fix me. she also goes on to say it doesnt matter because yout biology will stay the same so why even think changing your body would make a difference. people just dont understand that its not biology but psychology. no one will know your biology unless they do a chromosome test or you tell them
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the old mare

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Jill F

Quote from: Vampire Brianna Terryal Onyx on July 12, 2014, 03:16:38 PM
from my experience its religious belief. my friend thinks i'm just mentally ill and that seeing a psychiatrist would fix me. she also goes on to say it doesnt matter because yout biology will stay the same so why even think changing your body would make a difference. people just dont understand that its not biology but psychology. no one will know your biology unless they do a chromosome test or you tell them

Not my experience at all.  There are haters out there who try to justify it with their religion, but almost every ex-friend that shat upon me after transition wasn't remotely religious.  I also have plenty of religious friends who are fine with me, some of them being trans themselves.
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sad panda

Quote from: stephaniec on July 12, 2014, 03:13:44 PM
I was just wondering because of the everyday conflicts that pop up in the news about transgender issues in high schools and discrimination issues in the work place and assorted legal issues and the murders that happen. third world countries have a big issue with tans people. Issues popping up about choice of bathrooms etc. why is trans even an issue in the perception of others, not all others , but it is an issue. Some trans are terrified of even walking around and being seen as trans.

Well that happens to everyone who is visibly different. If trans people weren't visibly different, most people wouldn't care, (some people would, but believe me, not the majority) so it's not exactly because someone is trans, it's because someone is outside of people's expectations. People struggle to accept someone as a woman who doesn't strike them as being similar to other women, and I think it's sort of fair for them to struggle with that. I mean, again, cis women are forced into the same standards, and it's going to be a long time before those standards are gone.

Beyond my family, surprisingly, I can think of about 14 cis people that I've told I'm transitioned, and not a single one of them has said a single ill word about it or treated me any differently at all.
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Annabella

Putting on my neurology/biology/evopsych hat for a moment to explore a single angle on this question:

I think one thing that makes life very difficult for trans people is that there was a selective pressure in human evolution toward being able to clearly identify gender. The differences in build and facial structure between men and women for example is there to signal to the opposite sex "hey, if we copulate, we can have babies and won't that make our selfish genes happy!".

When someone transitions, it is very difficult to go from one gender to the other completely, and people (uneducated people) experience something akin to the uncanny valley when looking at them. The uncanny valley comes out of robotics research, and basically it is the sensation of discomfort that increases the more human a robot becomes until it passes a certain threshold where it appears "quite human" to them. It comes (from what I have read) from being geared to identify illness in others.

When a person is transitioning genders the same thing occurs. There is a point where the ambiguity of gender will cause discomfort in an uneducated person.
Now I know I said a lot about evolution, but I would be remiss not to add this very salient point:
A person's perception of where that uncanny valley between male and female is has a great deal to do with their socialization. They are taught growing up what signs of fertility and gender are prevalent in that culture and they subconsciously use that when evaluating others. This is why, I think, the visibility of transgender/transexual individuals in media is so important.

Once a person is exposed to enough images of transgender people, their perception of the boundaries between male and female presentation becomes more blurred, and they become more accepting subconsciously of the grey areas in-between. This is why I find the hollywood obsession with extreme archetypical presentations of gender to be harmful. Movies and television are one of the primary ways that young people are taught to view gender in society. I won't say many good things about Japanese cinema, but I will say they treat transgender people a lot more favorably and frequently than the US media.

Of course, I could be wrong about a lot of that, and I am always happy to be corrected.
"But you can only lie about who you are for so long without going crazy."
― Ellen Wittlinger, Parrotfish
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Umiko

Quote from: Jill F on July 12, 2014, 03:21:10 PM
Not my experience at all.  There are haters out there who try to justify it with their religion, but almost every ex-friend that shat upon me after transition wasn't remotely religious.  I also have plenty of religious friends who are fine with me, some of them being trans themselves.
idk, my friend is pentecostal and she firmly says god made us the way we are so what is our right to change our genders and bodies when we were never meant to be the other gender or have that other gender's body. oh course she's says she'll force herself to accept me. there are the occasional homophobes and haters but from my side, i get those religious nuts, thus why i havent told my father's side of the family
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Annabella

Quote from: Vampire Brianna Terryal Onyx on July 12, 2014, 03:31:39 PM
idk, my friend is pentecostal and she firmly says god made us the way we are so what is our right to change our genders and bodies when we were never meant to be the other gender or have that other gender's body. oh course she's says she'll force herself to accept me. there are the occasional homophobes and haters but from my side, i get those religious nuts, thus why i havent told my father's side of the family

I don't think the problem is religion persay, as you could easily come up with a religious doctrine which is supportive or even promotes trangender (I think there are actually culture/religions that do this but they escape me at the moment). The problem in western religion imho is twofold, one is that christian scripture speaks against gender ambiguity, and the second is that conservative culture which predominates western religious culture is obsessed with binary idealized family models and shuns non-conformity. As a result many people within those communities are trained to have a disgust reaction to any non-normative presentation of gender or sexuality. It is this isolationism and idealization of norms that produces the majority of the damage IMHO, and not the scripture. More often than not the scripture is used as an excuse for an existing personal position, just as it was during US slavery.

Also by your friend's logic we should let people die of hiv/aids, shouldn't do facial reconstruction for birth defects, and shouldn't allow plastic surgery, shouldn't do organ transplants, etc etc.. so... yeah.
Some people don't take their logic to it's absurd conclusions and it ends up making them look silly.

-Anna
"But you can only lie about who you are for so long without going crazy."
― Ellen Wittlinger, Parrotfish
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Kylie

I think all of the issues brought up so far play a part.  I think point of reference, misogyny and closed mindedness make up the holy trinity though.  How can we expect someone to truly understand/accept something many of us who are transgender can't understand/accept ourselves?  Also, whether people want to acknowledge it or not, the US looks down on women, and being like women.  A woman may be valued individually, but femininity itself is not valued for much beyond beauty and care taking.

Religion also plays a role especially with immediate family.  I think religion goes along with closed mindedness for many but not all.  I know the reason i haven't come out to my family is because of their attitudes based in religion.  It doesn't allow for them to be open to homosexuality or transgender people.
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Foxglove

Excellent question, Stephanie, and one I have given some thought to.  I can't claim to be able to give you a definitive answer, mainly because that would require me to be able to read cisgender people's minds.  I'm not a mind-reader, and anyway a lot of the real hard-core trans-haters don't seem to have too much in the way of a mind that could be read.  But I can give you some conclusions I've come to based on the things I've seen cisgender people say on various forums when trans issues arise.

(1) The first reason a lot of cispeople fail to understand us is that they don't want to.  Like gun control and abortion, e.g., ->-bleeped-<- is a hugely emotive issue.  Trans-haters don't want to think about it, don't want to understand it.  They simply want to condemn it.

(2) Cisgender people seem to be exclusively "body-oriented".  That is, their concept of sex/gender is based solely on what sort of genitalia a given individual has.  If you've got male genitalia, you're a man.  If you've got female genitalia, you're a woman.  For them, the question is that simple.

When discussing ->-bleeped-<-, either among ourselves or with cispeople, we need to bear in mind that a cisperson's definition of "a man" is "a cisgender man"—that is, someone with male genitalia.  A cisperson's definition of "a woman" is "a cisgender woman"—that is, someone with female genitalia.  These are their concepts of "man" and "woman" because they don't have our experience.  So that if we're talking to cispeople and we're using the terms "man" and "woman", they're automatically going to be thinking of "cisgender man" and "cisgender woman".  They can't help it.  Those are the only concepts they have.  Which means that we're not going to be able to communicate with them.

They want to leave the brain/psychology/mind (whatever you want to call it) out of the equation because they don't seem to see it as relevant.  It's hard to say why that is.  I think they simply see the body and mind as a package deal.  If you've got certain genitalia, you've got the corresponding psychology.  They can't imagine it being any other way.

We want to talk about the psychology because that's how we define ourselves.  They want to bring everything back to the body because that's how they define themselves.

(3) So we have a failure to communicate.  I myself have been searching for some way to break the deadlock.

Cispeople fail to understand the distinction between sex and gender—that is, between body and mind.  But the standard explanation of that distinction that we transpeople propose seems to me inadequate.  We often define "gender" (as opposed to "sex") as your perception of yourself.  If you perceive yourself as female, you're female by gender.  If you perceive yourself as male, you're male by gender.

But I don't think this gets us anywhere.  Because the trans-haters will simply retort, "Well, you're a man (because you've got male genitalia), but you perceive yourself as female.  You're clearly deluded."  Or, "You're a woman (because you've got female genitalia), but you perceive yourself as male.  You're clearly deluded."

This standard explanation also strikes me as inadequate simply because I don't merely perceive myself to have a female psychology.  I do in fact have a female psychology.  I don't want to talk about perceptions when what we're dealing with is plain fact.

So I'm looking for different terms in which to explain ->-bleeped-<- to the uninitiated.  Here's an analogy that I've come up with recently  and that I find a very good explanation of how I feel about myself.  Let's put it in "spiritual terms", because this is something that most people (even the non-religious like me) can get a handle on:

The body is merely a shell that houses the soul, and what is truly important about a person is the soul because that is their true self.  Now somewhere out there, up in heaven perhaps, there's a host of souls waiting to be implanted in bodies in order to enjoy their time on earth.  Some of them are male souls, some of them are female souls.

When a woman conceives, if that embryo has XX chromosomes, a female soul is assigned to it.  If it has XY chromosomes, a male soul is assigned to it.  But sometimes a mistake is made.  The angel (or whoever) in charge of assigning souls to bodies nods off, and it can happen that a female soul is assigned to an XY embryo or a male soul is assigned to an XX embryo.  When that happens, you have a transgender person.


So this is the way I'd explain myself to a cisgender person: I was born a female soul in a male body.  And how do I know that I have a female soul, that I am a female soul?  Well, because I prove it every day.  I live female, I'm drawn to things female, I feel at home in the female camp, I find peace in the female camp.  Let the trans-haters or anybody else disprove that notion.

With this analogy I move people away from the limited definition of sex/gender being linked solely to one's genitalia.  I am a female soul, regardless of my physical configuration.  You can talk about my body all you like.  I'm talking about my soul.  You can insist as often as you like that I was born with a male body.  I've already conceded the point.  You can insist as often as you like that someone with male genitalia is "a man".  But I'm talking about my soul, which is female—and it is my soul that makes me transgender.  A man like you, my trans-hating friend, doesn't have a female soul as I do.  That is the difference between us.

Now the trans-haters won't like this analogy.  That's OK, because they don't like anything.  But most cispeople (at least in our part of the world) aren't trans-haters.  They're merely puzzled.  Perhaps this analogy that I use, or something similar to it, will give them a notion of ->-bleeped-<- that they can get a handle on.
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Dahlia

It depends on....when a TS was feminine pre everything, most people will understand and support her.

But who on earth will understand a very masculine MTF who wasn´t only very masculine to start with, but also has a wife and is a bio-father to several children and at early/mid 40's claims to be a woman, no less than 100% woman?

Only similar MTF within the MTF community will understand and support them.
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Annabella

I don't think that is quite so broadly true Dahlia.
Most people who are educated in modern sociology, psychology, feminist discourse etc. know that sexuality, gender, and identity can be fluid.
I look at it this way:
You have people who want life to be simple and want to stamp out all the difference so that the world can be their version of beautiful.
Then you have the people who want life to be complex and find that complexity and difference to be the beauty in the world and are pissed off at the people trying to stamp it out.
I think you know which camp I am in.
"But you can only lie about who you are for so long without going crazy."
― Ellen Wittlinger, Parrotfish
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Ms Grace

"who on earth...?" - I think you'll find a lot of cis people do in fact understand that group of sisters which you just backhanded. And if other trans women can't understand them just because they are under forty, were not masculine and not parents, then they must be missing some major empathy.
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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