What non binary feels like?

[Pandion]

I have been trying lately to describe to my partner why I feel my gender is non-binary rather than a woman with body dysphoria and I cannot seem to find the words.

So how would you describe the feeling of being non-binary?

Cheers,

Lou

[ativan]

Sometimes when I talk about it, I use the words she, he and I. They are all me, I am them and they are my gender.
There really isn't a she or he as separate people, that would be an identifiable disorder.
They are intertwined in my thoughts like reflections of the genders that the binary world insist's on using.
Some people come equipped to only deal with one at a time, usually the same one assigned to them at birth.
Sometimes they find out that the system of assigning doesn't work.
But some people still insist on using it, like it's going to matter to a newborn baby.
So explain to me how it's hard to understand how I think again?
I find it pretty hard to understand how anyone can think in only one gender when there are more.
Why do people only use one?
Ativan

[VeronicaLynn]

If I were to wake up and had the body of a woman, with my same mind, I still don't think I'd be quite cis. People are still going to tell me I can't do this and must do that, and I still wouldn't like it. I used to not care and did whatever I wanted, and I was happy with myself, even if others had some not nice things to say. I'm starting to not care again, and am starting to be happy again.

[androgynouspainter26]

For me, being non-binary is more of a statement about the nature of gender than an identity per se-I'm very much a fan of Kate Bornstein, who does a great job of explaining just how flexible and fake the entire concept of gender really is.  Beyond the body itself, I don't believe that there men and women are any different, and to me they way I act, dress, and everything else is really a personal choice.  I identify as non-binary because I don't believe in the gender binary, and my identity is a way of rejecting that.

[helen2010]

For me, being non-binary is more of a statement about the nature of gender than an identity per se-I'm very much a fan of Kate Bornstein, who does a great job of explaining just how flexible and fake the entire concept of gender really is.  Beyond the body itself, I don't believe that there men and women are any different, and to me they way I act, dress, and everything else is really a personal choice.  I identify as non-binary because I don't believe in the gender binary, and my identity is a way of rejecting that.

This .. and by nature, I think that as a fully functioning human I can and should be able to access any quality or attribute, regardless of how they are 'gendered'.  Gendering anything outside of biology is a nonsense and extremely limiting.   

I apologise if the following sounds like babble but communicating my non binary identity as a MAAB with grace and nuance, is something that I find extremely challenging but am working with this.  All too often, it is misread as an indicator as to sexual preference.   This does not seem to be as much of an issue for a FAAB who is FTA, or for a MAAB who becomes MTF,  in order to present as androgynous, gender fluid etc.  The Ruby Rose video really brought this home to me but in spite of the apparently greater amplitude and range of safe expression available to a female bodied non binary, it is still not sufficient for me to seek a binary physical transition and continue to identify/present as non binary.  Perhaps this is part of my journey and my destination is still in flux.  Or perhaps I am just a wanderer with no destination in mind or indeed required.

Does this make sense?

Safe travels

Aisla

[androgynouspainter26]

Aisla,

That makes perfect sense, and I'm a very similar position.  When a female-assigned person goes against traditional norms and shaves their head or identifies as genderqueer, it's seen as cutting-edge, cool, intriguing, and subversive in the best possible way.  When a male assigned person wears makeup, it's just considered pathetic.  The answer from a feminist perspective is that we still view things that are considered feminine as "less" than traditionally masculine traits, garments, etc.  And the idea that one cannot present the way they choose without undergoing medical treatment is proof that in our community, we still can't seem to separate the concepts of sex and gender, even if that's the beginning of every single trans 101 lecture I've ever had to sit through.

I suppose I'm proof that the two are completely separate because I consider myself both transexual (MtF) and Transgender (genderqueer), and they are two related but separate parts of my identity.  I don't believe in traditional gender.  I cut my hair short, some days I wear makeup and others I don't.  There are nights when I wear a black dress, and others where I sport a three piece suit...no wonder I was always so obsessed with Annie Lennox...but when I do all of these things, I still feel like physically I should be female.  I take hormones, and one day I probably am going to have surgery.  That I need to prove what I believe about gender because of my desire to transition physically is completely infuriating!  I am not enforcing the gender binary by having the surgery, my desiere has nothing to do with gender.  It has to do with sex.  I swear, this entire topic exhausts me.

[helen2010]

AP

Thank you.  Your perspective is enormously validating.   I find that a different color shirt, buttons on the left rather than the right, a different cut of jeans, a heeled boot, longer hair, a hairless face, manicured nails and brows etc are massive and to some extent they are.  To the extent that they are not part of the traditional range of uniforms acceptable or available to a MAAB - they feel ridiculously significant, to me.  But when compared to the range of presentation and potential nuance in expression available to a FAAB or MTF non binary, they are limited and pallid to say the least.

Need to keep working on this.  Having much more luck in changing my attitudes, building relationships, coming out, understanding and accepting myself but the presentation options are pretty limiting.  Disappointing that we can't provide the cues and find the amplitude of expression that we so very much need as a male bodied, non binary.  Pathetic, isn't it?!

Safe travels

Aisla

[androgynouspainter26]

No, it's not pathetic in the slightest!  From the moment we're born until they day we die, we are all bombarded with these idiotic and arbitrary rules surrounding gender, and it's very hard to break free of them in order to find an identity that feels genuine.  I think part of the beauty of identifying as nonbinary is that we have the privilege to essentially transition on our own terms-it gives you complete creative freedom with your gender. 

When it comes to presentation, you just need to find that dream look, and try to create it for yourself.  What clothes would you wear in a perfect world?  What about makeup?  If you are male bodied and nonbinary, makeup is a great place to express your identity-I discovered it my last year of high school, and I've been addicted to the white powder (brush) ever since.  I found that when I want to create a more androgynous look for myself, just browsing pictures of what people have done in the past can give me a huge insight into what might be interesting.  I'm sure you'll find a presentation that speaks volumes about who you are in time-we all do!

Best,
Sasha

[bunnymom]

Sasha and Aisla, You are so right about the arbitrary nature of what 'society' accepts for presentation of male-bodied persons vs. FAAB. I can present any way I wish, with only a mild 'is she or isn't she' Mind you, I have a petite frame and BIG hips, so I cannot pass as male. I guess I'm just a 'butch' female 'pretending' to be male. Seems pretty stupid that gets few second looks while someone being judged as femme male 'pretending' to be female. I can see the disadvantage of a male - bodied non-binary person.
For some reason,  sexual orientation seems to be everyone's big deal.
Better than 75% of women in my profession are viewed as 'butch'. It seems that we have trouble taking them seriously in their roles thinking they are 'girly'.
I admit guilt for that, too.
Anyway, when my trans daughter came out to me, It hit me that I don't know what it means to be a girl or a man.... It confused me, because I am FAAB and not subject to the same scrutiny that a person MAAB non-binary or trans person is.
It really makes me feel awful to think what life would be like in that world.
I've been asked if I'd like to be male. Answer, "no"
But I also don't want anything to do with the solid female gender stereotype, either.
Hence.... I believe I'm non-binary. Although I have no interest in changing my physiology.
Is that anything like what you see?

[EchelonHunt]

I am not enforcing the gender binary by having the surgery, my desire has nothing to do with gender.  It has to do with sex.

Interesting that you bring this up! Upon my discovery of being non-binary, I stopped caring about having a complete binary body - at least, in terms of genitals and sex. Mainly because I have no use for a vagina or a penis! My asexuality plays into that a fair bit and because I do not feel connected to any gender and in fact, none at all, it makes sense to me - along with my asexuality and severe lack of interest/arousal in partnered sex, that I desire a sexless body.

It's quite exhilarating to think about and I hope one day I can achieve the body I once had... The body before puberty destroyed by adding secondary sexual characteristics that I did and still do not desire.

In regards to the topic, being non-binary feels liberating, only I feel trapped by my body that is now a mix of female and male in terms of characteristics so I feel quite distressed even if I am finally at ease with my (lack of) gender identity after so long.

[Pandion]

I wonder how much of our gender identity is social construct fuelled by inaccurate stereotypes. This is the question my partner asks me.

Not fitting either gender stereotype does not make one non binary. Nor does dressing androgynous, plenty of cis and binary identified trans people do this. Lacking ability to identify with people of either binary gender doesn't really mean anything. Do we all experience dysphoria? I know I do but I'm not sure this is true of all non binary people. My partner says she is pretty indifferent about her own chest, finds it annoying more than anything else so maybe I just experience dysphoria with body parts rather than my gender as a whole.

I can completely understand not believing in or understanding the gender binary but I can only assume that give the presence of binary-identified trans people that people to fall at the poles of the spectrum. Perhaps this is a minority.

[Satinjoy]

I am enjoying this.

Non binary is an inclusive statement so we all get to play here.
It is a differing experience for all and a wonderful freedom, with commonalities.

I am mtf no op, I thought I was mtf but knew I was different, and in here, I am me.  Full hormones, female driven sexuality, attracted to woman and specifically one very special one, my long suffering wife, feeling gender is a misconceived mess and a prison for most, and living laughing.

So its complicated, but how does it feel?

It feels great darlings, it feels delicious.

Love to all here

[ativan]

Non binary is an inclusive statement so we all get to play here.
It is a differing experience for all and a wonderful freedom, with commonalities.

So true!

When I said earlier that she and he are a reflection, they aren't a reflection of my self.
They are merely a reflection of the binary that exists for reasons that seem to me to be nonexistent, yet I live in a world that they do.
When I think in those terms, I experience a sense of my thoughts as intertwined, yet come from different perspectives and have different conclusions.
When I don't think in those terms and I am just self, I am my gender, I am self and nothing more.
I assume that everyone does, but to different degrees of conclusion in thoughts.
Quite simply skewed one direction or the other. If they are comfortable in doing so, that's just fine, that's good for them.
I do like to think that I have a range of thinking that extends beyond a binary, yet I really don't know.
Gender is a reflection that society says is there, I see no real reason for it, yet it exists in words that are used.
It's a curious thing. This is a really good thread, a topic that is personal, yet very communal by it's nature.
Ativan

[Pandion]

So its complicated, but how does it feel?

It feels great darlings, it feels delicious.

I love this. It's great to see such positivity, often discussing trans related things can be really focused on the tough stuff. This made me smile so thank you.

[VeronicaLynn]

AP

Thank you.  Your perspective is enormously validating.   I find that a different color shirt, buttons on the left rather than the right, a different cut of jeans, a heeled boot, longer hair, a hairless face, manicured nails and brows etc are massive and to some extent they are.  To the extent that they are not part of the traditional range of uniforms acceptable or available to a MAAB - they feel ridiculously significant, to me.  But when compared to the range of presentation and potential nuance in expression available to a FAAB or MTF non binary, they are limited and pallid to say the least.

Need to keep working on this.  Having much more luck in changing my attitudes, building relationships, coming out, understanding and accepting myself but the presentation options are pretty limiting.  Disappointing that we can't provide the cues and find the amplitude of expression that we so very much need as a male bodied, non binary.  Pathetic, isn't it?!

Safe travels

Aisla

The presentation options are often not as limiting as what we limit ourselves to. If no one pushes the boundaries, then they stay where they are.

It really is wonderful to be non-binary, why can't one be happy about it? Most of the world closes themselves off to 50% of the possibilities this world has to offer. In activities, in dress, in possible lovers too...and perhaps most importantly in feelings. Why not experience everything this world has to offer, or at least not limit yourself based on some stupid set of rules assigned to you at birth?

Sorry beer commercial, I'll violate the man code every chance I get. What are you going to do?

[helen2010]

The presentation options are often not as limiting as what we limit ourselves to. If no one pushes the boundaries, then they stay where they are.

I'll violate the man code every chance I get. What are you going to do?

VL

This is the $64 question.  If past behavior is a guide than socially I will be taking small positive steps and try to keep moving the boundaries.  Less boundary movement likely when in work mode.

Aisla

[VeronicaLynn]

Work mode is, no matter what situation, always about the money, even if we have to lie and say we like helping customers, or whatever to get the job. No one really is totally truthful in work mode, don't feel bad that you don't show up in a skirt. Work isn't somewhere you should push certain boundaries, especially if it's going to keep you from getting a promotion....

[Satinjoy]

Personally still enjoying this.

Ready for a laugh?

I'm on heavy E dosage.  Love it.  But it has strong side effects with memory and feeling like I am on serious tranquilizers.

So I thought I dressed appropriately for work, suited up, showed up, in my body armor of jeans, loose shirt, suit jacket and leather dress boots.

I showed up to work wearing slippers instead and didn't clue in on it till I was in the door.

Glad they aren't the pink furry ones.



On another note, even pushing to andro clothes doesn't work for me as an estimator in construction.  So I mute it, and I appreciate the comments in here.  I would love to show up with calf high boots with spikes, to wear something tighter and more revealing, but its much more stealthy than that.  Still there if you look, but not out there saying here, take a right hook at me for being courageously different.

Too threatening for my family.  I so wish that wasn't so, but reality is what it is until we gain more acceptance in this world.   But Susans, and all of you, gave me the self acceptance I need to deal with it head on, and they will get the truth if they ask, of who I am, provided it is not malicious.

I am so glad I can be comfortable in any role I am called upon to play, based on the way I am constructed....

Blessings and warmest comforts...

Nails out, but not much else, and thank God I don't paint the toenails, just realized that one a second ago.   Sooooo Funny..  What a kick.  Slippers to a construction job.


HA HA HAH HA.....LOL LOL ROLF

Love these HRT meds when they raise them.  It will pass, it takes a few weeks to adjust.