think it would be easier to move forward to approach trans as 3rd gender

[peky]

well , having my brain being female all my like answers all the questions of why I am what I am.

we are what we are because a biological accident!

An accident that did not happen in our brain but rather to the rest of our body, in other words it is our body that is not congruent with our brain....

[Lonicera]

I agree with those suggesting it could merely serve to firmly entrench the othering of trans people and would perpetuate existent bigotry. Personally, I can't even see it as a reasonable stepping stone since I worry a legal third gender for all trans people would make future campaigning even harder via giving cis people something prominent and definitive to point at as being enough to placate us.

Also, I could imagine it being harder to get a third gender option accepted in the first place since I'd suggest the erasure and unique harms suffered by non-binary people demonstrate that the binary can eventually somewhat handle a minority of people shifting from one position to the other but cannot readily handle things that blatantly attack its fundamental legitimacy. The binary seems to hate transgression of any kind but I can't imagine the fervour with which it'd attack something that so blatantly threatens its survival as a concept.

Being labelled 'trans' rather than 'woman' would also be very harmful personally since it would just give people an authoritative tool to deny my womanhood if they so desire.  I'd rather 'transgender' remain a process that I'm doing and not something opponents can use to legitimately exclude me.

As for 'passing,' I regret I can't see why having a legal third gender helps eliminate concerns about that except in very selective scenarios. I don't see how it would tackle the origin of the problem in a way that alternative approaches wouldn't manage too. In my mind, the fundamental cause of the pain is gender as it presently exists so I would rather focus on the root. There's been a lot of progress towards breaking down the restrictiveness of gender so I'd like to dedicate my time to continuing that effort in whatever tiny way I can in the hope humanity will one day see all gender expressions, identities, etc as equal and as a varying or fixed component of how each person engages with the world as they choose.

Finally, I think I should note that what I've written above pertains to my view on gender and a third gender legal status as it exists in many Western nations rather than anywhere else.

[Kylie]

Like it or not though, we are not exactly like cis-women.  Birth biology aside....our life experiences, development, socialization and identity are still very different from theirs. I can understand their pause in accepting us as one of their own.  God bless the ones that do though.

[Yulaiyre]

Personally, I feel the option should be there for a third gender, but for those of us that wish to go stealth, i feel it's a little unfair to just out us. Though  Icould see this having some rather severe repercussions.

The system works as it is, if it aint broke, dont fix it,

[Lonicera]

Like it or not though, we are not exactly like cis-women.

I wouldn't disagree but I would stress that there isn't a singular type of cis woman too. I'd argue differences from one cis woman to another or from one cis woman to a trans woman are entirely dependent on context. In a significant number of cases, the difference between the two cis women is greater than the difference between the trans woman and the cis woman because we have to account for factors like race, religion, income, education, disability, sexuality, locale, etc. For me, this means the difference between a given trans woman and a cis woman isn't sufficient to warrant a separate third gender in the same way that there's no reason for distinct legal separation between cis women based on collections of other extremely important details.

Birth biology aside....our life experiences, development, socialization and identity are still very different from theirs.

Again, I think it's important to stress context and to generally avoid generalising such fundamental aspects of life experience on behalf of other trans women. I acknowledge that my experience with those things isn't the same as other trans women, many of whom did have experiences that are not 'very different' from many cis women and girls at all.

[stephaniec]

well, There wouldn't be this problem if society could totally accept diversity . If the collective world societies were advanced enough to accept people the way they are, these kind of problems of labeling and segregation wouldn't occur. we've probably got a ways to go to get to the best possible world. the problem is what's the best way to get there. Or does society really want to get there. there is no doubt that being trans has some high hurdles to overcome. How do we solve the problem of being seen as just another aspect of a "normal" society where we can be as free as anyone else. we all can't be invisible

[Kylie]

@Lonicera - i totally understand where you are coming from, and trust me, that is the way i wish it was, but i also see the other side as well.  It is a difficult proposition because either way, you risk invalidating one groups identity. Some people don't care, but then for others, it speaks directly to the essence of who they are and if they don't have that recognition, they don't have anything.

[Kylie]

How do we solve the problem of being seen as just another aspect of a "normal" society where we can be as free as anyone else. we all can't be invisible

True dat!

[Jess42]

Uhhh, yeah. For all of those that disagree with a third gender, there are cultures still today that recognize a third gender. Just google third gender and then cultures. Also it seems like it's not a brand new concept either. It seems to be way more common than not. It is a Samoan tradition, the Hindu god/godess Shiva, native american cultures recognized a third gender. So it may not be such a really bad thing it just seems like it is not really embraced in modern more "intellegent" cultures.

[stephaniec]

I think India just passed a law about third  gender classification. I'm not necessarily espousing this ,but just trying to figure things out

[Tysilio]

I find the idea of a single, third gender to be a bit problematic. I don't, as a trans guy, think I belong to the same gender as trans women, so right there, three isn't enough. Once you allow that you need two, where do you stop? What about people who don't identify with just one gender, or with none?

A more practical goal, IMO, is to work toward making gender irrelevant for legal purposes. In today's society, the only thing I can think of for which gender status has actual legal consequences (at least in the US) is registering for the draft. In every other area, men and women are equal under the law, so why is the distinction necessary? (I'd argue that it would more equitable in any case to require everyone, or better yet no one, to register for Selective Service.)

If legal requirements for gender identification were removed, it would leave everyone free to identify as they wish -- or not.

[Kaylee Angelia]

Uhhh, yeah. For all of those that disagree with a third gender, there are cultures still today that recognize a third gender. Just google third gender and then cultures. Also it seems like it's not a brand new concept either. It seems to be way more common than not. It is a Samoan tradition, the Hindu god/godess Shiva, native american cultures recognized a third gender. So it may not be such a really bad thing it just seems like it is not really embraced in modern more "intellegent" cultures.

Exactly and some cultures actually had four genders which allowed for MtF and FtM genders. It wasn't until colonization took place that the two gender system was "forced" upon the world.

Of course they didn't have SRS back then but the 3 - 4 genders were and still are a natural part of the human family.

The reason why Taiwan has so many SRS surgeons is because it was never colonized and the third gender has always existed there.

I am female but I personally consider myself third gendered or "Two Spirited" as my transition is also part of my spiritual journey so I plan to be open about my trans status. Having said that I support 100% anyone who wants to go stealth.

[stephaniec]

Exactly and some cultures actually had four genders which allowed for MtF and FtM genders. It wasn't until colonization took place that the two gender system was "forced" upon the world.

Of course they didn't have SRS back then but the 3 - 4 genders were and still are a natural part of the human family.

The reason why Taiwan has so many SRS surgeons is because it was never colonized and the third gender has always existed there.

I am female but I personally consider myself third gendered or "Two Spirited" as my transition is also part of my spiritual journey so I plan to be open about my trans status. Having said that I support 100% anyone who wants to go stealth.

well, I think Ideally if society could advance enough everyone will be stealth because will all be part of the whole it won't be an issue. It would be like having blonde instead of brunette hair

[Olivia P]

South east Asian culture has ancient roots to perceiving trans as a third gender, and in that region it still exists today.

[Lonicera]

Oh dear, I hope people don't mind this post but I don't think my single sentence earlier did a good enough job of emphasising that my perspective on matters relates solely to prevalent white supremacist ideas of gender in places like Western Europe. I apologise for that profusely and hope the clarification doesn't just add further harm to anyone. I just don't think a single legal status for all trans people can be transposed into Western society easily and prefer to pursue other options. I would never knowingly seek to imply that it's the only legitimate path for humanity or that other cultures must comply with it too.

[Kaylee Angelia]

well, I think Ideally if society could advance enough everyone will be stealth because will all be part of the whole it won't be an issue. It would be like having blonde instead of brunette hair

I totally agree. Hopefully we'll get there someday.

[Kaylee Angelia]

Oh dear, I hope people don't mind this post but I don't think my single sentence earlier did a good enough job of emphasising that my perspective on matters relates solely to prevalent white supremacist ideas of gender in places like Western Europe. I apologise for that profusely and hope the clarification doesn't just add further harm to anyone. I just don't think a single legal status for all trans people can be transposed into Western society easily and prefer to pursue other options. I would never knowingly seek to imply that it's the only legitimate path for humanity or that other cultures must comply with it too.

I think you're right about that. It would be very difficult to achieve in western society and may never happen. The good thing is that strides are being made from an equality standpoint and hopefully, like stephaniec alluded to, we'll advance as a society to the point that it won't really matter anymore.

[kelly_aus]

I'm feeling the lack of acceptance is not the same here in Australia.. In the 4 years since I came out, I've never faced any of the hate that is talked about here on Susan's and in the media..

On that note, I don't think a 3rd (or 4th) gender is the answer as it would only serve to 'other' trans people and take away from those that do have a good fit to the binary. In fact, I can see that adding to the list of gender would simply add opportunities for discrimination.

[Kylie]

Oh dear, I hope people don't mind this post but I don't think my single sentence earlier did a good enough job of emphasising that my perspective on matters relates solely to prevalent white supremacist ideas of gender in places like Western Europe. I apologise for that profusely and hope the clarification doesn't just add further harm to anyone. I just don't think a single legal status for all trans people can be transposed into Western society easily and prefer to pursue other options. I would never knowingly seek to imply that it's the only legitimate path for humanity or that other cultures must comply with it too.

I didn't feel that way about your post at all, and I don't see anything that you need to apologize for.

[Susan522]

"I might not be making sense , but I try"

I think that you are making sense.  You have posed a valid question which has engendered many informative responses.  I believe that  3rd gender would work well for many in the trans* community, giving them the equal rights and protections already afforded the cis-population.

It seems unreasonable to create the distinction between cis and trans*, and then insist that the distinction does not exist.