Am I really Trans?

[Illuminess]

I completely agree, there's so much more that's been removed too!! I could yak for hours about this, how long have you got!? xxx

As the saying goes: I'm here all week! Except now it's nap time.  I took my Adderall a bit later in the day yesterday after a bit of a hiatus and it's kept me up for far too long. I'm finally knackered...at 6am  Whatever you have send me a PM and we'll exchange conspiracy theories.

[Hannah Samira]

As the saying goes: I'm here all week! Except now it's nap time.  I took my Adderall a bit later in the day yesterday after a bit of a hiatus and it's kept me up for far too long. I'm finally knackered...at 6am  Whatever you have send me a PM and we'll exchange conspiracy theories.

I'll be honest with you, most of it is just me trying to stick up for my religion against the people who are ruining it for the rest of us 

[GenTechJ]

You shouldn't feel the need to stick up for your religion. There are crazies in every group. Believe what you believe. For me, it's "An ye harm none, do as ye will". My main religious beliefs? Don't be a jerk, treat others the way you want to be treated, people have different mindsets.

But, that's just me. I'm not a fan of organised religion myself.

[Hannah Samira]

My main religious beliefs? Don't be a jerk

I love that!! xxx

[GenTechJ]

I love that!! xxx

I think it's pretty straightforward, should be a given even. Just, don't be a jerk.

[traci_k]

As for seeking help from the university. At least here in the States, many student health insurance policies now include transgender care coverage and most have someone devoted to LGBTQ issues.

Just a thought.

Wishing you well on your journey of discovery!

Hugs,

[Hannah Samira]

As for seeking help from the university. At least here in the States, many student health insurance policies now include transgender care coverage and most have someone devoted to LGBTQ issues.

Just a thought.

Wishing you well on your journey of discovery!

Hugs,

We don't have health insurance in the UK because of the NHS, not that I can complain about that though

[GenTechJ]

As for seeking help from the university. At least here in the States, many student health insurance policies now include transgender care coverage and most have someone devoted to LGBTQ issues.

Just a thought.

Wishing you well on your journey of discovery!

Hugs,

I didn't know that. A friend of mine is going to take me to my local community college to get me back on track for my Computer Science degree and she's well aware of my transgender issues. I'll have to look into that, thank you. Also, sorry for derailing the topic there.

[helen2010]

For me being non-binary, or trans, is a choice, and not a particularly wise choice.

Susan

With the greatest respect, identifying as trans* is not a choice.  Gender identity is not a choice.  If it were a choice, then I suspect much suffering could be avoided by simply electing to identify in the gender consistent with that assigned at birth.  Dysphoria could be banished by choice and we could all live happily ever after.   Unfortunately for those of us who identify as trans*, dysphoria cannot be simply wished away.   If only it were this simple.

Safe travels

Aisla

[Susan522]

Susan

With the greatest respect, identifying as trans* is not a choice.  Gender identity is not a choice.  If it were a choice, then I suspect much suffering could be avoided by simply electing to identify in the gender consistent with that assigned at birth.  Dysphoria could be banished by choice and we could all live happily ever after.   Unfortunately for those of us who identify as trans*, dysphoria cannot be simply wished away.   If only it were this simple.

Safe travels

Aisla

I think you are engaging in what I think is referred to as "identity politics".  I am not sure that is the right term., but it seems to me that how one identifies can vary from day to day, even hour to hour and may not bear any relevance to how others identify you. 

Self identifying as trans* is to accept and identify oneself as something other than male or female.  There is another thread on here about trans* as a third gender.

In any case it seems that we have a simple difference of opinion.  Nevertheless, I think that Imight have some idea to what you are referring to but the language is what is causing the difficulty.

I see one's sexual identity as distinct to one's gender presentation.  what I am/was making reference to was one's sexual identity which is in my view immutable, whereas I generally "butch" or "femme" up at will.

[helen2010]

Susan

No biggie.  Your language did cause confusion.  I think that we are on the same page but wish to restate my understanding to confirm same.  I agree that gender identity is innate to the individual, it can be fluid, it can be fixed and it shouldn't be confused with sexuality.   Gender identity is not a choice,  it is innate, it is as you say, 'immutable'.   It may be binary or it may be non binary.

In contrast, gender presentation normally involves an element of choice.  The goal of most  trans* (an umbrella term covering those whose gender identity is other other than their birth assigned gender) is usually the alignment of gender identity with gender presentation. Once someone identifies as trans* most need or choose to change their gender presentation in order to feel authentic and to be seen and recognised as the gender in which they identify. Others may choose to make a political statement so that while they may identify as M or F etc they may choose to present as GQ.  Another may identify as M or F etc but choose to present as A etc, while others may choose, as you put it, to 'butch' or to 'femme' up.   

Aisla

[Susan522]

" The goal of most  trans* (an umbrella term covering those whose gender identity is other other than their birth assigned gender) is usually the alignment of gender identity with gender presentation. Once someone identifies as trans* most need or choose to change their gender presentation in order to feel authentic and to be seen and recognized as the gender in which they identify."

I guess I just don't see it that way.  I have met and interacted extensively with some delightfully androgynous or GQ people.  For the most part they tended to be female who presented androgynously and/or just didn't buy into or act out in what could be described as generally accepted male or female behavior.
Nevertheless they still had female sexual characteristics.  They actively chose to identify as androgynous or GQ but, despite their identity, they were still female.

I see a clear distinction between these folks and someone like Jamison Greene who after much soul searching finally came to his personal truth that he was in fact male, despite being born with female characteristics.

[helen2010]

" The goal of most  trans* (an umbrella term covering those whose gender identity is other other than their birth assigned gender) is usually the alignment of gender identity with gender presentation. Once someone identifies as trans* most need or choose to change their gender presentation in order to feel authentic and to be seen and recognized as the gender in which they identify."

I guess I just don't see it that way.  I have met and interacted extensively with some delightfully androgynous or GQ people.  For the most part they tended to be female who presented androgynously and/or just didn't buy into or act out in what could be described as generally accepted male or female behavior.
Nevertheless they still had female sexual characteristics.  They actively chose to identify as androgynous or GQ but, despite their identity, they were still female..[/i]

Susan

I think I can now see where the language may be causing an issue.  Gender identity is not sexual identity; Gender identity is not determined by sexual characteristics; Gender presentation is not necessarily a reflection of gender identity; and gender presentation should not be confused with sexuality.  As trans* the focus is on gender identity not sexual or birth identity.

You appear to be focused on birth gender and the physical characteristics that then follow as defining whether someone is male, female or non binary.  As trans*, birth gender does not reconcile with gender identity.  Addressing this disconnect is the trans* experience.  Presentation, physical modification and therapies including hrt are commonly used to bridge this chasm.  Some may elect to use all, some or none of the methods to address their dysphoria.

In your example your friends appear to be F who have chosen to present as non binary so their gender is not non binary as they still identify as F.  They are simply F who like to play with their presentation.

However if your androgynous friends present as non binary and gender identify as non binary,  then they are non binary, primary sexual characteristics notwithstanding.  They may or may not have taken or choose to take steps to align their gender identity with their physical body, chemistry etc.

Gender identity is unique to an individual.  Their appearance may be gendered and may provide a clue as to their gender identity and may be consistent with their birth gender or it may not, and gender identity is more than a simple classification as F or M.

Aisla

[missymay]

unfortunately this is a question that can only be answered by you, and a therapist would help you reach a conclusion through a written test that is more definitive than the COAGATI, and also through conversations with him or her that would allow you to express your true self. Also, a therapist may recommend that you attend a transgender group meeting, which would allow you to meet with other trans women in person.  And if you haven't had the opportunity to see your self in women's clothing with a full wig and makeup, doing so will allow you to see a glimpse of your true self (if you are really trans), and help you in making a decision.  As far as physical traits are concerned, hormone replacement therapy will help to feminize your face and body in a few years, and plastic surgery is an available option as well; you can get facial feminization surgery, breast implants, liposuction for a feminine contour, hip and butt augmentation, etc., but our height, and hand/foot size is what it is.  Another important procedure you will need to help you pass is laser hair removal and electrolysis; it is extremely important and should be started as soon as possible.   

[Susan522]

" As trans*, birth gender does not reconcile with gender identity.  Addressing this disconnect is the trans* experience....In your example your friends appear to be F who have chosen to present as non binary so their gender is not non binary as they still identify as F.  They are simply F who like to play with their presentation."

I must have missed that memo.  I don't see people being born with gender.  I see gender as a social construct which helps society differentiate between male and female.  As for my friends, you are wrong.  Being an inquisitive type, I inquired deeply into just what this meant, (this non-binary/androgynous presentation).  I was clearly told that this was who/how they identified and it was who they were.  Because we are friends, I was able to explore more deeply and they were clear to me that their sexual orientation, (the people that they were attracted to sexually), was "all of the above, M/F/whatever.

So yes we come from different schools of thought.  I believe that we are all born male or female, (or in an infinitesimally tiny minority, intersex or sexually ambiguous.)   I think that from that moment of birth we are taught/conditioned to behave in that manner deemed appropriate to our sex at birth.

In the case of the transsexual, for reasons yet to be fully understood, that conditioning runs contrary to the innate sexual  identity of that child, resulting in that desperate dysphoria which usually ends in either a full medical transformation or death. 

In the case of the transgendered or trans* individuals, the results are as myriad as the nuanced colors on a spectrum.

"Gender identity is unique to an individual.  Their appearance may be gendered and may provide a clue as to their gender identity and may be consistent with their birth gender or it may not, and gender identity is more than a simple classification as F or M."

Again...you are speaking about social construct, a fungible choice, or maybe even a paraphilia, I don't know as I am certainly no expert in trans* culture or experience.  Nevertheless I do understand what it means to be born with the wrong sexual characteristics, (genitals), and I can assure you that that is NOT a good thing or a pleasant experience.  But...it can be remedied and the sooner the better.

[helen2010]

" As trans*, birth gender does not reconcile with gender identity.  Addressing this disconnect is the trans* experience....In your example your friends appear to be F who have chosen to present as non binary so their gender is not non binary as they still identify as F.  They are simply F who like to play with their presentation."

...I don't see people being born with gender.  I see gender as a social construct which helps society differentiate between male and female. 

So yes we come from different schools of thought....   I think that from that moment of birth we are taught/conditioned to behave in that manner deemed appropriate to our sex at birth.

In the case of the transsexual, for reasons yet to be fully understood, that conditioning runs contrary to the innate sexual  identity of that child, ..

In the case of the transgendered or trans* individuals, the results are as myriad as the nuanced colors on a spectrum.

"Gender identity is unique to an individual.  Their appearance may be gendered and may provide a clue as to their gender identity and may be consistent with their birth gender or it may not, and gender identity is more than a simple classification as F or M."

....I don't know as I am certainly no expert in trans* culture or experience.  Nevertheless I do understand what it means to be born with the wrong sexual characteristics, (genitals)

Susan

Many thanks for your response   It is now clear that we do differ in terms of the definitions used, our understanding of the trans* experience and our view of the underlying cause of trans.  You are not alone in seeing it as a purely social construct and I am not alone in seeing it as a bio/psycho/social phenomenon

Our language and our narrative differs.  I respect your perspective and wish you well.

Safe travels

Aisla

[Hannah Samira]

Just a quick update on how I'm feeling

These past 2 days I've been keeping score on how many times I feel I'd rather be male and how many times I'd rather be female. So far the score stands at...

Female - 20
Male - 1

The weird thing is, I felt really upset about that getting that 1 (I think I was on 7 for female at the time). Also, it was more of a feeling of "right now I don't mind being male, whereas all 20 of the female scores were "I want to be a woman right now!"

xxx

[Hannah Samira]

unfortunately this is a question that can only be answered by you, and a therapist would help you reach a conclusion through a written test that is more definitive than the COAGATI, and also through conversations with him or her that would allow you to express your true self. Also, a therapist may recommend that you attend a transgender group meeting, which would allow you to meet with other trans women in person.  And if you haven't had the opportunity to see your self in women's clothing with a full wig and makeup, doing so will allow you to see a glimpse of your true self (if you are really trans), and help you in making a decision.  As far as physical traits are concerned, hormone replacement therapy will help to feminize your face and body in a few years, and plastic surgery is an available option as well; you can get facial feminization surgery, breast implants, liposuction for a feminine contour, hip and butt augmentation, etc., but our height, and hand/foot size is what it is.  Another important procedure you will need to help you pass is laser hair removal and electrolysis; it is extremely important and should be started as soon as possible.

I've unfortunately never had the privilege of meeting another transwoman in person so those group meetings would be nice! As for women's clothing and makeup I've only been able to try on my mum' sand my sister's clothes when I'm home alone - no wigs and never full makeup (only lipstick) that said, when I have dressed as a female I've felt so comfortable and so relaxed, the feeling is amazing!! xxx

[Lonicera]

Just a quick update on how I'm feeling

These past 2 days I've been keeping score on how many times I feel I'd rather be male and how many times I'd rather be female. So far the score stands at...

Female - 20
Male - 1

The weird thing is, I felt really upset about that getting that 1 (I think I was on 7 for female at the time). Also, it was more of a feeling of "right now I don't mind being male, whereas all 20 of the female scores were "I want to be a woman right now!"

xxx

I think it's understandable to be upset about the 1 given that a lot of people seem to internalise the idea that they aren't valid and genuine if they ever deviate or ever doubt or ever question or ever have a moment where dysphoria doesn't rule all. Nonetheless, I think it's entirely natural to do those things since there's a lot of social pressure against transgressing gender designations and gender norms. Our cultures inflict a lot of harm on trans people for existing so sometimes feeling like avoiding it seems natural to me, as does appreciating the nature of advantages of being designated male in a patriarchal world. Out of curiosity, may I ask why you're keeping count? Is it to try to 'quantify' your sense of legitimacy?

[GenTechJ]

I think it's understandable to be upset about the 1 given that a lot of people seem to internalise the idea that they aren't valid and genuine if they ever deviate or ever doubt or ever question or ever have a moment where dysphoria doesn't rule all. Nonetheless, I think it's entirely natural to do those things since there's a lot of social pressure against transgressing gender designations and gender norms. Our cultures inflict a lot of harm on trans people for existing so sometimes feeling like avoiding it seems natural to me, as does appreciating the nature of advantages of being designated male in a patriarchal world. Out of curiosity, may I ask why you're keeping count? Is it to try to 'quantify' your sense of legitimacy?

My one question for you Sophie, was that one point because it was a "male" thing you liked that caused you to think that? I think the whole idea that men and women like different things and you are judged based on the things you like rather than who you are is wrong. This is a societal problem and not a problem with you at all. I as a woman prefer dresses and skirts and will dress the way I like. However I will always love video games, wrestling, action movies, paintball/airsoft. I'm tomboy in thought, but girly in dress. But again, the problem is this preconceived notion of what is female/male.

So was that 1 point because you liked something stereotypically "male" or felt like you could stay male?