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Do I NEED GRS to be able to legally marry a man?

Started by Andreja Silvija, October 02, 2014, 02:19:11 PM

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Andreja Silvija

I'm pretty far away from this decision on the transition timeline as I see my endocrinologist for the 1st time on the 29th this month. I could ask my psychologist next week, but I would like to hear from other transwomen experienced on the issue. So without further ado, my question.

I think like most other girls, I dream of a big fantastic wedding with Mr. Right. My problem with my dream are the laws surrounding the LGBT community. I know I want to get an Orchiectomy eventually. But, I am rather terrified of the prospect of GRS/SRS. Not only the cost, but the procedure itself and healing process as well. Also I am unsure of it's practical use and would not want to hurt myself with a partner. Anyway, my fear of GRS aside. Is it impossible to legally change my gender without the procedure? Will I have to move to a gay marriage state to have a "gay" marriage? 
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Blue Senpai

That depends on where you live and what is required to change the gender marker on your birth certificate, which is what's going to be needed for marriage. For example, New York City still requires SRS and a letter from the surgeon who performed the operation to change it despite New York State dropping that expensive requirement.
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Jill F

OK, rant time.

It really sucks that there are different requirements for changing your gender marker depending on where you were born.  If you were born in TN, OH or ID, then you are simply SOL (Ridiculous!).  There needs to be a uniform nationwide policy about how this is done (read: simple) because NOBODY CAN CHOOSE THEIR BIRTHPLACE.

/rant
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Athena

Also if you do live in the US it seems like the gay rights groups are headed to Washington with tons of cash. By the time you do want to get married you might not even have to change your gender marker, gay marriage is looking like the unstoppable force. It will take time but the tide is turning in favour of gay marriage.
Formally known as White Rabbit
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mrs izzy

Go to any state that has gay marriage and get married.

You are under federal law protected.

You need not live in a state to get married there.
Mrs. Izzy
Trans lifeline US 877-565-8860 CAD 877-330-6366 http://www.translifeline.org/
"Those who matter will never judge, this is my given path to walk in life and you have no right to judge"

I used to be grounded but now I can fly.
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Andreja Silvija

Oh wow! That's a lot of replies and I only just went to take a shower! Thank you all for your answers. I was born in Hawaii if that matters. My hometown is Tacoma, Washington and I would like to go back there someday. Unfortunately, I currently reside in Louisville, Kentucky. I just don't want to be legally wed as a gay couple if you know what I mean. Is it too much to ask for a normal wedding if I have gender dysphoria... In the end it's just paper I guess. Still a little bummed out, but thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions!
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Athena

I am not sure how it is in the states but I believe here in canada the requirements for changing your gender marker is based on where you were born. Something to look into.
Formally known as White Rabbit
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herekitten

Oh the stories I could tell on this subject ;). It does make it easier from a legal and documentation standpoint, to have GRS and be legally married.  I am assuming you are living as your true female self and are of legal age, since you and your fiancée are looking into marriage. If this is the case, most states only require that you have photo identification when applying for your marriage license (driver's license is perfect). A drivers license is easier to change legally. If you have that, with 'female' on it, you are good to go. A birth certificate is dependent on where you were born and can be a headache (Jill F -- I hear you sister!). After your marriage, don't forget to visit your social security office to change your name, if you are taking his surname. Otherwise, you might get a letter from the IRS stating your names don't match. 

I understand how you feel about not wanting a gay marriage. Be aware that if something tragic were to happen and your pre-op status was made known, it can have dire consequences on the legal grounds of your marriage and any inheritances, etc. (depending on the state). If you and your husband make any Wills, ENSURE that they are worded in such a manner that the validity of the documents cannot be contested. The laws are changing so fast, that I am hoping I am completely wrong.
It is the lives we encounter that make life worth living. - Guy De Maupassant
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Kayla

Sadly, birth certificates are not dispositive of whether a state will accept you as that gender. There are a number of cases of post-op transsexuals with conforming birth certificates being denied marriage to their partners: Littleton v. Prange (Texas App.), In Re Nash (Ohio), Kantaras v. Kantaras (Florida), and In Re Gardiner's Estate (Kansas). While an amended birth certificate may help the state recognize the marriage as "valid" (read: heterosexual), a number of states have stated that the agency issuing marriage licenses can ignore gender markers on them in favor of birth sex. So, relying purely on your birth certificate may not help.

Second, the rules for amending the gender marker on your birth certificate is that you must have reassignment surgery.* Unfortunately, you can only amend your birth certificate in the state of your birth** So, if you want to amend your birth certificate, then you are kind of stuck with surgery and a recovery vacation to Hawaii. The good news is that states are beginning to back away from surgical requirements, the bad news is this is slow.

Finally, while you may not want a "gay" marriage (I totally understand), it may be all that there is. Kentucky is part of the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals and there is a case going on there that may legalize gay marriage in Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky, and Tennessee. While this alone is good news, the collateral effect is that a state cannot just look into your past and void your marriage license because it found out you are trans. So, as HereKitten pointed out, you could get a "heterosexual" marriage if you have a driver's license listing you as female, and if the state looked into your past (and gay marriage is allowed), the state still must accept.

But, the problem with Kentucky is that it will not amend the gender marker on your driver's license unless you present an amended birth certificate or receive SRS.*** So, if you want to get the license to reflect female, to get the heterosexual marriage, then you're sadly out luck. The only advice I can give you would be to move to Virginia or Maryland, get a driver's license there, and then get married there and go to Kentucky. From my experience, VA amended my name and gender marker on my license with only a therapist recommendation and $41 in state fees. But, I doubt moving is a realistic, or ideal, solution.

Best of luck with everything, though. Hopefully some of these policies change a bit by the time you meet Mr. Right and planning that wedding.

*Haw. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 338-17.7(a)(4)(B) (2005)(stating "(a)The department of health shall establish, in the following circumstances, a new certificate of birth for a person born in this State [if]... (4)(B) The birth registrant has had a sex change operation and the sex designation on the birth registrant's birth certificate is no longer correct; provided that the director of health may further investigate and require additional information that the director deems necessary;")

**There is an exception in which Connecticut allows its courts to issue amended birth certificates for Connecticut citizens born elsewhere.

***The Kentucky DMV, like most state DMV's, does not make this information readily findable on google. In its place, I found two conflicting reports about what Kentucky requires:(1) from Lambda Legal requiring an amended birth certificate, and (2) a great article by Dean Spade called "Documenting Gender" that requires SRS, but not necessarily an amended birth certificate.
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Missy~rmdlm

Not in Missouri, Proof of birth (as female for this example) can be provided through a passport. No surgery is needed to update the passport and therefore all descending documents. Those documents are satisfactory for marriage licenses in MO. I wouldn't advertise the fact that a BC isn't changed though. That is where things like objectors can gain standing in proceedings.
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herekitten

Completely forgot about the passport. Big yes on that one.  And yes, it was the easiest of all documents to obtain reflecting the correct gender "F" (it was for me).

I so wish the laws would catch up with the times regarding this. The thought of having to rely on the 'gay' crutch to protect my marriage, if were ever necessary, is saddening to me but it is what it is for now.
It is the lives we encounter that make life worth living. - Guy De Maupassant
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Jess42

Quote from: Jill F on October 02, 2014, 02:34:26 PM
OK, rant time.

It really sucks that there are different requirements for changing your gender marker depending on where you were born.  If you were born in TN, OH or ID, then you are simply SOL (Ridiculous!).  There needs to be a uniform nationwide policy about how this is done (read: simple) because NOBODY CAN CHOOSE THEIR BIRTHPLACE.

/rant

Yep, kind of like driver's licenses. States honor driver's licenses from other states. Unless It is a CDL which is a more or less federal DL, other states do not have to honor another state's DLs, but they do. Should be the same with marriage licenses. If you are in a place where gay marriage is legal and move to a state the it isn't, that state should still honor it. But I think marriage should be illegal all across the board. All it does is make a state money. I can promise and dedidcate my life to anyone and go to a lawyer and have that person be a beneficiary for everything I own and vice versa. I can even have a little ceremony to mark the occasion and wear a white dress even. Maybe not sanctioned by a religious entity or the federal government but marriage is nothing more than a ceremony sanctioned by the state in which you live and supposedly in the eyes of God. ::) But I can dedicate my life to someone without the state or an established religion giving us permission to do so. But the trend seems to be going in favor of free marriage to who you love and not between two separate physical genders.
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androgynouspainter26

You can marry a man even if your sex is listed as male in a number of states...even if your state doesn't allow it, you can always elope.  It might feel wrongish, but keep in mind-that letter is just a letter.  It's what I would do, if I ever decided to marry a man.
My gender problem isn't half as bad as society's.  Although mine is still pretty bad.
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itsApril

Quote from: Andreja Silvija on October 02, 2014, 02:19:11 PM

I think like most other girls, I dream of a big fantastic wedding with Mr. Right. My problem with my dream are the laws surrounding the LGBT community. . . . Is it impossible to legally change my gender without the procedure? Will I have to move to a gay marriage state to have a "gay" marriage?

I realize this is an old and inactive thread, but just thought it would be good to bring it back up and close the loop on it.  In light of the Supreme Court rulings this year on marriage, this should no longer be an issue.  States are dealing with this in various ways.  In my state (California), marriage licenses no longer carry "bride" and "groom," just "spouse 1" and "spouse 2."  There's no need to disclose gender at all - it's no longer relevant to marriage in California.

The big picture is that the same should now be true throughout the United States, though there may be different wrinkles on it from state to state about the specific documents.  If some troglodyte county clerk tries to stand in your way (like that awful Kim Davis in Kentucky), get a lawyer and force the issue - you will win!

This is not to say that gender doesn't matter, of course.  "M" and "F" still appear on all sorts of documents like drivers licenses and identity cards that have a big impact on how we live.  But on marriage, the battle is over here in the US.

May your big, fantastic wedding be everything you hope for!
-April
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SashaGrace

For us in the UK it's more ambiguous than it first appears.

If you want a hotel or registry office then it doesn't matter too much as it's a marriage be it a hetro or homo marriage it's seen equal in law.

If you want a church it's a little more difficult, most churches accept it but some don't the Church in Wales haven't gained the legal right to authorise a marriage where the bride and/or groom are trans. The vicar we spoke too really wanted to marry us but couldn't due the churches rules. Even though I haven't had my GRC yet and am still legally male and I married a cis girl he couldn't marry us. We were married in a hotel instead by a registrar and will leave our church ceremony out until the law changes and we can have a blessing in a church because it's what we want.

Best of luck to you all xx
'Yea though I walk through the shadow of the valley of death, I will fear no evil.' Psalm 23, Verse 4
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