TS? TV? TG? GQ? NB? An Excellent Read

[Jane's Sweet Refrain]

PS. The collective pressure is what, traditionally, has lead to false identities that STOP people FROM transitioning. If anyone who has posted here who has de-transitioned could go back and do it over again, without transitioning, would they?

PSS. Don't mess with Jane!

Don't mess with Jane? When the volleyball starts, I want to be on Suziack's side of the net. That PS is quite a face-spike. 

[Susan522]

The collective pressure is what, traditionally, has lead to false identities that STOP people FROM transitioning.

I don't know.  Perhaps.  I am certainly no trans* expert.  I am not sure how anybody could be truly "expert" on such a diversity of conditions.  As Suzifrond points out, "trans*" covers everything from non-op, to pre-op, to wannabe-op, to non-gendered, to bi-gendered, etc., etc. etc.

So called self-proclaimed gender "experts" like the Serano's and other Gender Outlaws, are just that, social outlaws, promoting their own OPINIONS and....selling lots of books.

I think what '3rdwaytrans' was writing about was the consequences, (for which incidentally, he is taking full ownership and responsibility)...the consequence of subscribing to many of these so called "accepted and well researched concepts."

Personally I find these "accepted and well researched concepts", highly suspect.  But then, I suspect that my lack of confidence in these "accepted and well researched concepts", has a lot to do with my lived experience and subsequent points of view.

[helen2010]

Susan522

There is no doubt your 'lived' experience informs and shapes your opinion.  This is the same for all of us.  The departure point between your opinion and mine is the weighting given to third party research and opinion.  As you say you are attracted to the author's explanation of their unsuccessful transition, whereas I am attracted to and persuaded by, peer reviewed articles and research, widely published authors etc.

Aisla

[Susan522]

Aisla.  Please do not mischaracterize my interest in 3rd party's thinking and self-analysis as an "attraction" to his "research and opinion".  I appreciate your acknowledgement of "lived experience" and I would ask that you tae note of the difference of the lived experience of such "widely published' writers who make their living bloviating about their lived experience which stand in stark contrast to my life and the lives of the vast majority of women.

Understand that I am not attempting to speak to the lived experience of others.  I am recognizing 3rd party's acknowledgement of his own errors, (which may or may not be seen as mistakes), and his recognition that those actions, which he now regrets, were based on the "widely accepted and recognized" thoughts and opinions of those same. "widely published' writers who make their living bloviating about their lived experience".

[Lonicera]

Rather belated reply but thank you very much for the link, Susan. I deeply appreciate it. I had seen people discussion critiques of this elsewhere and a friend mentioned their views on Facebook but nobody actually provided the text. I appreciate seeing the alternative personal experience as retransitioners seem to be an under-represented minority. Of course, in many cases that may be due to a desire for personal distance or the fact some become rabidly 'gender/trans critical'.

Given my personal perception of gender causes me to see gender as a product of our constant evolving performance of it, quite a bit of the blog is interesting. As will be painfully obvious, I've never read psychology texts in the areas the writer discusses but I've definitely asked myself similar questions based on other writing, such as whether my personal gender narrative in the present is causing me to unwittingly reconstruct past memories or experience in a pattern that conforms to needs. Of course, I also ask whether that's true of any narrative about anything in my life or any identity. (Ultimately, I've decided it doesn't matter much because things continue to seem deeply rooted)

Having expressed understanding, I'm afraid I have questions about the blog that are probably due to my lamentable lack of specialist knowledge. For instance, how could a person distinguish between 'acting from one's self-concept rather than organic desire' effectively and how could you do so without a new self-concept potentially biasing perception of such categorisation?

Equally, I dislike that the significant claims seem to be rooted in anecdotes or ignore alternative possibilities. I appreciate it's just a blog but I can't accept a nebulous and general claim that 'adoption of transgender identity itself is at cause for some of the dysphoria people experience' based on a few people known for forty years with alternatives for their change in attitude to gender perception being ignored.

I'm also disconcerted by the parallel drawn to 'lesbian until graduation' based on a single percentage change and the assertion there's been an explosion in the number of trans men. As has been noted, the greater availability of information and connectivity is a valid alternative to the impact of queer politics. As a possible test, if it could be ascribed to a 'trans until graduation' phenomenon then I'd guess an indicator would be the average age of transition going down but clinic data shared at conferences I've followed or attended shows it's going up. 

Sadly, the readiness with which the author says it's due to queer cultural explanations makes me question their motives a tad. I simply can't accept that there's possible pressure or encouragement to identify as trans in anything but the smallest of bubbles given I think we live in an overwhelmingly essentialist patriarchal society and the endless evidence of trans discrimination. Similarly, figures from health surveys consistently show the vast majority of trans people consider suicide while a very significant plurality make at least one attempt rather than actually accept their nature. In light of overarching social pressures that encourage people to seek any alternative explanations, I just can't see how the claim is well-substantiated at present.

[Susan522]

"I simply can't accept that there's possible pressure or encouragement to identify as trans in anything but the smallest of bubbles given I think we live in an overwhelmingly essentialist patriarchal society and the endless evidence of trans discrimination."

I agree that we live in what could be described as an essentially patriarchal society.  I am not sure that I could go so far as to call it "essentialist.

In any case, I think what should be considered is that 'academia' is most certainly not the "smallest of bubbles".  This is where trans* is more than acceptable.

Also....Might you please clarify/amplify your following remark: "Equally, I dislike that the significant claims seem to be rooted in anecdotes or ignore alternative possibilities. I appreciate it's just a blog but I can't accept a nebulous and general claim that 'adoption of transgender identity itself is at cause for some of the dysphoria people experience' based on a few people known for forty years with alternatives for their change in attitude to gender perception being ignored."

[Jennygirl]

Maybe I can clarify with a short synopsis of my own thoughts..

It seems to suggest invalidation of the trans community's support for people who experience feelings of gender variance.

Part of the beauty of life is having the freedom to make these kinds of decisions about our own well being and future regardless of the makeup of our physical bodies at birth. It is up to the individual to know what is best for them. Any hint of a suggestion that people are not qualified to think for themselves and make their own decisions is one I will tend to not agree with.

It's almost as if the 400% figure is presented as a negative, or a reason for worry. Am I the only one that is proud and happy that worldwide representation of trans people is growing rapidly? EDIT: I highly doubt it

[Susan522]

"It seems to suggest invalidation of the trans community's support for people who experience feelings of gender variance."

I don't see that at all.  I see an individual pointing out the perils of conflating 'support' with 'enabling'.

[stephaniec]

sorry, mean no disrespect to anyone's point of view , but the reasons given for the  validity of this approach in questioning ones true nature as regards whether or not one is truly transgender seems to be the type of logic that would be employed by a conversion therapist. self creation of illusion due to some kind of environmental pressure rather then some natural physical causation.

[karina13]

There are many viewpoints and perspectives one could take, but not one of them alone works for the whole. There are too many circumstances, and everyone has a unique story.

Right on the money! I was just about to say the same thing, and I see my words had already been spoken.

It's almost as if the 400% figure is presented as a negative, or a reason for worry. Am I the only one that is proud and happy that worldwide representation of trans people is growing rapidly? EDIT: I highly doubt it

+1 Jenny!!!!!

[karina13]

Looking at the guys website, he does state "This site is supportive of people that transition, but also suggests the exploration of alternatives which may create less suffering." I think he has his own way of looking at it, and I don't think that there's ill intent behind what he's trying to promote. It seems as though he's trying to encourage one to take a harder look at what one is doing with themselves. And I applaud him for sharing his own story. However, all that being said, I personally don't agree with his message. There's not one "right way" or one "wrong way". There's people with different paths doing what works for them in that moment.

Spirituality has helped me in reclaiming my life. I have a different way of looking at transitioning than many others do, and I was overjoyed when I found someone out there who shares very similar perspectives with me. www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u6TTorNjL4
Indeed, I found that letting go of my resistance to being born in a male body helped me let go of that part of me, and realize that I am doing this to fulfill my own happiness and authenticity. She does talk about 'choice' and it may turn some off instantly, but she's referring to a pre-birth intention. She's very supportive! If you'd like to watch this video, I'd recommend seeing it in its entirety to get a full understanding of where she's coming from. I love this girl, though!

[katiej]

I really disagree with the author's narrative that identifying as trans* is itself a cause of dysphoria, and getting over being identified as such will also eliminate the need for transition.  I spent years pushing the dysphoria down and doing my best to ignore my own feelings at the expense of my emotional well-being.  This author called that being "mostly ok with being male."  I call it barely living and feeling very isolated.

I will admit that, for me, dysphoria really kicked in after I realized that I am, in fact, transgender.  But one did not cause the other.  It was the realization that being transgender was the root cause of my unhappiness, discomfort, and isolation.  It was at that point that I could no longer keep it all bottled up.  I didn't identify as trans* because of the cool factor.

IMO this is similar to the long-held narrative that you should never attempt transition unless your only other option is death.  Well, I'm just not that dramatic a person. And so for years I figured this meant I couldn't really be transgender, as I had never attempted suicide and didn't have the early life trauma they claimed all trans people had gone through.

Both narratives are well-intentioned, hoping to discourage people from transitioning who probably shouldn't.  But that's what therapists and WPATH are there for.  The flip side is that these narratives serve to discourage people who really should transition but don't have the support or they aren't well-informed.

if it could be ascribed to a 'trans until graduation' phenomenon then I'd guess an indicator would be the average age of transition going down but clinic data shared at conferences I've followed or attended shows it's going up. 

This right here proves that it's not a fad among young people on college campuses.  It's people like me who come to a point in life where they realize they're extremely unhappy, stumble upon Susans, and discover transition videos on youtube all in the course of a few weeks.

I've known since I was 5 that I should have been female.  There was a time in my early 20's that I almost transitioned, but there was a lack of support and information was still limited.  But really it was the next 15 years of slogging through life being "mostly ok with being male" that ultimately led me to transition.  Being "mostly ok" is really no way to live.

[Susan522]

I am not sure why certain people have such a viscerally negative reaction to this individuals post.  I certainly do not see his intention to over simplify he causes of ->-bleeped-<- as just a "fad".  To go there onemust argue that this red herring is what is being proposed.  Clearly this is not the intent.

Here is another idea which may or mat not have merit.

http://thirdwaytrans.com/2014/07/23/erotic-imprinting-overview/comment-page-1/#comment-103

[stephaniec]

I am not sure why certain people have such a viscerally negative reaction to this individuals post.  I certainly do not see his intention to over simplify he causes of ->-bleeped-<- as just a "fad".  To go there onemust argue that this red herring is what is being proposed.  Clearly this is not the intent.

Here is another idea which may or mat not have merit.

http://thirdwaytrans.com/2014/07/23/erotic-imprinting-overview/comment-page-1/#comment-103

so, what you are trying to convey is that dysphoria is a self created illusion and also a symptom of autogynephillia

[Danielle79]

Here is another idea which may or mat not have merit.

http://thirdwaytrans.com/2014/07/23/erotic-imprinting-overview/comment-page-1/#comment-103

So I read the article to which you linked, and the author starts out with the following thesis:

"Erotic imprinting is a key component in transgender identity development."

There's nothing in the rest of the article, however, to back this claim up. He wrote a great deal about this notion of erotic imprinting, referencing John Money as an expert (which should give all of us pause, given what Money did to David Reimer). The author, however, never ties erotic imprinting to gender identity development. Why is it a key component? What is the connection between the two? What is the mechanism through which the first affects the second? The author answers none of these questions.

It makes me think that the author has an internal bias towards believing that being transgender is somehow intimately tied to abnormal sexual development, since he skips over the connection between the two as if it is obvious (and it clearly isn't).

[Susan522]

"so, what you are trying to convey is that dysphoria is a self created illusion and also a symptom of autogynephillia "

No.  Not in the least.  What I am looking for is the kind of semi-critical analysis offered by Danielle79.

[Susan522]

Danielle.  Thank you for taking the time to check this out.  I see your point that using Money's "research" as a reference definitely raises some red flags.  However, I think this "connection" that you seek, though arguably tenuous, can be found here...
"In particular trauma or any strong events in childhood can override erotic imprinting. This is what John Money referred to as a "vandalized love map" Such overwriting can be total, but is usually only partial. This creates a kind of dual sexuality where a person has a typical sexual imprint (hetero/homo/bisexual) as well as some fetishistic scenarios that turn them on. These dual sexual imprints compete. This if found in many other sexual imprints and is not specific to gender issues. There is also a dynamic competition which is life long."

And here..."We see this dual sexuality play out all of the time when MTF-spectrum people are struggling with gender. The cross-gender feelings can go away when one finds a new partner and come back after the limerance has passed. They also tend to increase in times of stress. If there is also a negative schema present, the erotic fantasy can act to discharge the tension caused by the schema (schema avoidance). This also strengthens the schema, creating a feedback loop. The fantasy is never enough, and there is risk of escalation."

[helen2010]

Yeah, well, everybody has her/his story and their opinion... and I for one respect everybody's opinions... However this persons claims to be "educating... and well then I must rise the question of what are his credentials as a teacher.... Note that I am not assaulting his opinion for his lack of credentials... what I am objecting is his disclaimer that he is only trying to educate...

Here is what a true educator and medical expert in GID has to say about the development of gender identity in humans... it is a biological! not the result of any "construction"

Peky

Many thanks for posting this article. It presents as logical, well researched and based on science which appeals to my need for something more than personal anecdote and opinion

Aisla

[Danielle79]

Danielle.  Thank you for taking the time to check this out.  I see your point that using Money's "research" as a reference definitely raises some red flags.  However, I think this "connection" that you seek, though arguably tenuous, can be found here...
"In particular trauma or any strong events in childhood can override erotic imprinting. This is what John Money referred to as a "vandalized love map" Such overwriting can be total, but is usually only partial. This creates a kind of dual sexuality where a person has a typical sexual imprint (hetero/homo/bisexual) as well as some fetishistic scenarios that turn them on. These dual sexual imprints compete. This if found in many other sexual imprints and is not specific to gender issues. There is also a dynamic competition which is life long."

And here..."We see this dual sexuality play out all of the time when MTF-spectrum people are struggling with gender. The cross-gender feelings can go away when one finds a new partner and come back after the limerance has passed. They also tend to increase in times of stress. If there is also a negative schema present, the erotic fantasy can act to discharge the tension caused by the schema (schema avoidance). This also strengthens the schema, creating a feedback loop. The fantasy is never enough, and there is risk of escalation."

Susan - I did notice those two paragraphs when I read the essay. While I think the author did attempt to establish a connection between "erotic imprint" and gender identity there, he didn't quite achieve his objective.

In the first paragraph, the author is either assuming that being transgender is one side of some sort of dual sexuality (something he never establishes) or else he is trying to relate gender identity to dual sexuality by analogy, which doesn't prove that they come from the same root cause. I am particularly concerned about the way that the author seems to equate being transgender with having a sexual fetish.

In the second paragraph, the author again tries to support his conclusion (that being transgender results from "erotic imprinting" that creates some sort of dual sexuality) using analogy. This time, he discusses the similarity between how, for some of us (not all), gender dysphoria seems to ebb with stress and wane with new love, and how the same tends to be true if someone has an erotic fantasy that they find shameful. Again, this similarity does not demonstrate the author's conclusion, and in fact, we can easily explain why this similarity exists: in both cases, we are suppressing something we, at the time, find shameful. When we are under stress, it becomes more difficult to muster the energy to suppress our feelings; when we are newly in love, we get a burst of energy that makes suppression easy. The fact that both gender identity and sexual fantasies tend to be suppressed does not imply that they are in any way related.

[stephaniec]

sorry, no matter how you want to view this persons ideas, there still coming  from a person who doesn't deem it necessary to provide his name and asks the reader to deal with very sensitive medical issue on the basis of some unverifiable statement that he is a psychiatrist in training and a one time MTF. I also stand by my statement that it sounds a lot like conversion therapy