Off-The-Shelf transsexual M2F femininity what is real femininity and what is not

[suzifrommd]

First of all, there is no such thing as "real" femininity. Femininity by definition is "the quality of being female." So anyone who is female is by nature feminine.

^^ THIS

[ErinWDK]

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
Shakespeare

We all copy and mimic others in situations cis or trans. We take note of leads and cues in how to act in situations, but are personality will usually always shine through. So what may of look stereotypical or mimicking behavior for an early transitioner finding their feet, could be perfectly normal before they started to transition

(Defining normal that's a discussion for another thread)

Hmm... Shakespeare...

"Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."


Different Act, Different Play, some similar ideas, this one from MacBeth sort of suits me more.

So, What is "normal?"  Parts of me are really feminine - other parts are really not.  I can dress and go out and sort of make a go of it.  Then comes the thought along the lines of "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."  Then again, the more I look at things I find myself to be non-binary - so nothing really fits.  Being non-banary makes me as much not female as it makes me not male.  So being feminine or being masculine are both unobtainium...


Erin

[Carlita]

That's very true, Id probably cringe if I put the clock back 30 years, next year will be the 30th anniversary of my srs, now over 30 years living as a woman, I can barely remember presenting to the world as a man. My clothes, shoes, my walk, my body and all my gestures are all feminine, my voice, a little husky, but feminine, I ws told once I sound a bit like Lauren Bacall, over the years Iv just become the woman I am now, completely female, I'm now a married woman and unavailable to other men

How wonderful! I'm so happy for you, so impressed ... and so jealous!! 

[LizMarie]

My take on this, from studying this specific issue before.

First, there are two aspects of masculinity or femininity. One aspect is purely cultural and is what many trans exclusionary feminists focus on because they want the differences to be purely cultural. Yet modern research, especially into trans people, reveals that there are fundamental brain differences between males and females, and that trans people very often have brain structures that look like the sex with which they identify versus the sex with which they are assigned at birth.

This makes things very complicated. How do we tell what is cultural and what is not?

Second, we live in a very patriarchal society that further emphasizes male/female differences and then tries to capitalize on those differences to make females subordinate to males. At one point, females were considered property for males in our society.

So, in my opinion, you can't separate the two cleanly. We're goldfish and we live inside the goldfish bowl. For us to speculate what life must be like outside the goldfish bowl is something we're not well equipped to do.

In my own case, I've not adopted excessively feminine gestures and such but after I came out, many female friends said they realized that how I acted was more feminine than masculine anyway. I socialize, love to talk and listen, and always enjoyed topics that none of the "other guys" enjoyed though I also enjoy topics that men may discuss too, such as politics or sports, because women can like those things too.

Most of my "adopting femininity" has been getting my voice to a decent place (still not happy there but it works), continuing to get facial hair removed, learning to walk as women do (and it's not what you think!!), and learning to not try to dominate interpersonal relationships, something I did before as self-protection.

P.S. If you want to learn a lot about how women walk, and no it's not all in the hips, then experiment with this walking simulator from a bio motion lab.

http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLwalker.html

[Randi]

Actually some biblical scholars think male and female did not exist before the creation of Eve:  That Adam was androgynous.  The creation of Eve from his body pulled out his feminine portion, leaving only the masculine.

http://judaism.about.com/od/jewishculture/a/What-Was-The-Androgyne-Biblical-Creation-Story.htm

Last time I checked, he was not a transsexual, was he? Now, those would be great news for all religiously motivated bigots - the very first human being, made by God is.. a ->-bleeped-<-!*

*No offence or slur was intended. Really.

[ImagineKate]

I think that it is a mix of nature and nurture.

As I'm now more deeply exploring my trans-ness, I looked back on my life and noticed a few things.

I naturally did a lot of things that girls did. Girls' games, toys etc. I suspect if I was growing up today with more open parents I would probably be one of those who socially transitioned early.

My childhood pictures scream "tomboyish girl" if I didn't know any better who I was.

All of this even though the major influence in my life was my hyper masculine, "salty" dad and my grandfathers. My dad wasn't abusive or anything but he was extremely rough around the edges. The media couldn't have influenced much. We did't have the Internet back then and we didn't have cable TV. School couldn't be it either. I went to a boys' school.

[LizMarie]

Randi, I linked something in the Spirituality forum about Joseph and the Coat of Many Colors. You, or anyone with a spiritual outlook might enjoy and be surprised by the sermon linked therein. I know that I was.

[Evelyn K]

Interesting reading.

Isn't it odd that many psych clinics demand nearly barbie doll like perfection and presenting according to the stereotype before they'll refer you to HRT?

That the origin of 'feeling feminine' isn't enough.

[Juliett]

As with most discussions that consider what trans women can/can't and do/don't, it falls apart when you consider those who don't fit the stereotype.

Some women want to feel like a princess and some want to drive penis trucks and shoot penis guns. Both ends of the spectrum are valid and both are simply expressing how they feel. Trans or cis does nothing substantial to diminish or enhance either.

Theoretical abstracts about the differences a lack of society would create are entertaining yet pointless because society is a constant not a variable.

Any idea that attempts to exist in a vacuum, free from outside influence will be inherently flawed as nothing exists in a vacuum. Everything is connected.

All that having been said, sure it's true that beginners go a little overboard when they're learning. The same can be said of anyone learning anything.

100 internet points to anyone who can figure out if i ended up making a point or not because I honestly can't tell.

[Joan]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

If I'm female and I've always been acting to appear male, why am I having to try so hard to appear female? Why do I have to learn a whole new set of mannerisms? What's the difference from before?

Reading a lot if feminist viewpoints on Transgender issues is making me reexamine what may be an over simplistic POV for me.

[Evelyn K]

^^ I guess it depends on your level of dysphoria and how far you want to reconcile your conception of gender. For some it's enough to expand on a set of behaviors. Developing a female 'repertoire' if you will. What culturally appropriately feminine behaviors you choose will depend on your environment I guess. It doesn't really come from within because femininity as stated isn't defined. It's socially imprinted. For instance, I'm sure what constitutes 'feminine' behavior will be much different for those existing in the Amazon basin vs a chic modern metropolis.

For others with more extreme dysphoria body changes and surgical intervention is needed.

[Allyda]

As for me, I haven't really changed my manurisms or how I act in public since I began my full transition because I've always been feminine. It just always came natural to me because it's always been who I am. Of course, being feminine didn't do me any favors when I was being raised wrongly as a boy. in fact, it caused me several beat downs from other boys for my being so different, or so feminine. Many of the girls I knew growing up, and those in my adopted family used to tell me: "you should have been a girl, your too pretty to be a guy," or "We see you as one of us girls," yada yada yada, etc. Of course, my adopted father adamantly tried to get me to "toughen up" as he put it but it just wasn't me. Despite my hardship over my manurisms and femininity, I was a very strong minded child. I knew who I was, even if my adopted parents or their son didn't.

It was worse for me if I tried to act masculine. I was just horrible at it and never could fit in. Always the outcast never fitting in with males even as an adult. I was always seen as strange or eccentric, or crazy, or all of the above. The only difference was most adults didn't give me beat downs because of my femininity.

While I don't remember who said it, I agree gender habits are highly based upon stereotypes set forth by society. While I believe we as women can do anything a man can, society sees it different, sees us as weaker than men. Also likewise as has also been mentioned women are told it's not feminine to be leaders or outspoken, and that our looks are our best asset. I myself don't agree with these stereotypes, but they do exist and are a part of our everyday lives.

Personally I don't think there is a simple answer to Evelyn's question. There are too many degrees of authenticity to these stereotypes varying with culture and location, religion, etc. You do pick some interesting and complex, sometimes weird questions Evelyn I'll give you that. I guess that's why your so interesting of a girl to know.

Ali

[Evelyn K]

Really? If Adam was born on an island, where would his sense of gender come from? How would his dysphoria manifest if he has nothing to compare it with?

Topic twist

I was thinking about the above and a had a curious question.

Say someone was born and raised on an island without any exposure to anything that's masculine or feminine. Everything from cars and war planes to barbie dolls, colors, smells and voices.

If said person was to sit in front of a slide show that showed images of exclusive male and female things and asked which things represented their respective genders, would said person be able to differentiate? Such as a mens suit [male] barbie doll [female] and so on.

[suzifrommd]

Topic twist

I was thinking about the above and a had a curious question.

Say someone was born and raised on an island without any exposure to anything that's masculine or feminine. Everything from cars and war planes to barbie dolls, colors, smells and voices.

If said person was to sit in front of a slide show that showed images of exclusive male and female things and asked which things represented their respective genders, would said person be able to differentiate? Such as a mens suit [male] barbie doll [female] and so on.

Great question, Evelyn.

Because the way gender is wired into our brains is social. I.e. From what I've heard from lots of people, the message MtF people feel is less like "I'm female" and more like "I'm like them" referring to females that they see. That's how it was for me.

So without a social context, there would be no male trappings or female trappings. And, while there are inherently male characteristics and female characteristics, our island girl wouldn't have any experience with either male or female people, so would not be able to identify them, right?

[Evelyn K]

^^ Right. Which leads me to wonder how a young toddler boy could possibly develop a gender preference for female things so early on.

If there are other constituents at play such as social influences in the household or other.

Maybe that's a big relevant question for all of us...

[suzifrommd]

^^ Right. Which leads me to wonder how a young toddler boy could possibly develop a gender preference for female things so early on.

I would imagine it would be from seeing female people and noticing that she is not being given the opportunity they are. She want's to wear what they're wearing and play with what they have.

[Jera]

I would imagine it would be from seeing female people and noticing that she is not being given the opportunity they are. She want's to wear what they're wearing and play with what they have.

With this in mind, how would we be able to tell if Island Adam has just a sense of vanilla envy, or a more dysphoric sense of belonging. One passes, the other's permanent? Or is there something deeper to it?

[Evelyn K]

^^ That's a tuff one. Maybe we emulate what we envy afterall. Without any social context to anchor our dysphoria, you just have to wonder where the origin of 'feeling feminine' really lies. If 'yearning' to be female is actually a learned trait. That we're choosing a social preference, and by choosing hormones we reinforce these feelings giving the illusion it was meant to be after all.

Welp. This discussion could start getting dicey.

Beating a dead horse?

[Jera]

Sorry, I wasn't aiming for dicey. It's just a question I've been asking myself a lot lately, and one I don't have the answer to. Pure, unadulterated envy would explain rather well why so many of us go a bit over-the-top feminine, or at least appear to, once we are finally "allowed" to do so.

But just because that might explain things doesn't necessarily make it true. I don't know.

[Evelyn K]

^^ Hey Jera no worries, didn't even cross my mind. I think it's my speculation that could make things get a little dicey.

Some very real cognitive dissonance can arise thinking about this stuff.