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Out, but not out, compromises in our social identities-your visual presentation

Started by Satinjoy, September 08, 2014, 11:37:56 AM

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Satinjoy

Since I posted my pic, I have had some kickback from dysphoria.  No surprise, only two people ever saw Satinjoy before I posted the new Avatar here, and they are my beloved daughters.  Satinjoy wants more of my time now in presentation, she is less satisfied with being totally her but veiled outside by appearances.

We know I can get very emotional and a bit unstable.  No worries.

My question is, what kind of kickback do you get from yourself or from trans peers based on your social presentation(s)?  What do you do to present as trans* socially?

Mine, socially, is limited to the nails, which the pic does not show well and which are growing, and if you get the angle right and if the shirt is a little tight, the boobs show.  Neck up, outside, its male.

Do I feel like less than?  Because I don't go out in a dress?

Yup.

Yet, its my chosen reality.  I guess it all comes down to motives, to the why of it.  Fear driven, familial love driven, socially driven.. .trans political driven.... dysphoria driven..... Satinjoy driven......

Not the easiest stuff to figure out is it?

So that's my social presentation in the construction and macho industry.  How do I feel about it?  Having nails around a bunch of Neanderthals?  I feel good about that little piece, and will stand my ground about being trans if they ask about them.

More comments coming at fast food places.  Everyone seems to love the nails, which are growing verrryy slowly... they are too short I broke 9 out of 10 on a project.

Thoughts about being out trans?  What do you do out there?  I live 3 different worlds in a sense, limited GQ, jarring GQ (dressed and no hair), and fully TS in private.  But, ... is that right.... politically....socially....

My choices were made in love for the woman who stayed with me through a very painful transition process.  For that I have no regrets.

Any thoughts come out of this little ramble?  It has been eating at me a little, like I am letting trans down somehow, even though I am no longer really hiding it, just not dressing it.

Come on nails grow back already, you're supposed to be 3-4 mm from the tips girls, get going....

Love to all here.  This thread for the good of trans...

Nails out, hair waiting, enjoying your company here in the forest.
Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the red pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the little blue pills - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes

Sh'e took the little blue ones.
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Jessica Merriman

I would not be your sister if I didn't worry about how you will handle three worlds with one mind and body. Every day I see a little more angst in your post's as it seems you are fighting extremely hard with Dysphoria. I am afraid it will eventually cause health problems trying to hold together all the things you are. I hope you manage to do and be everything you want to, but the body and mind can only take so much. I have no great words of wisdom about your situation, but I sincerely believe some day you will have to choose just one life. Others will undoubtedly say I am wrong and I do hope I am. That being said you have been pointing out how SJ is not happy and demands more time. I personally see a tipping point happening in the near future as I fought as hard as you are, but the Dysphoria won out. In a way I am glad it did as I now have one very happy and fulfilling life and wish you could as well.  :)
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Satinjoy

If that ever happens, Lady Jess, I know you are here for me in the city.

I am going to bring up the dysphoric discomfort you observe with the shrink, thanks dear for that, we are all mirrors.....

I happen to really like my mirror lol

But thanks for your concern, and I am still betting the non binary nature wins over the dysphoria.  You and I both need to be around when we see who wins that bet.

That gets controversial, and we can let that controversy go in this thread.  It is not needed.  More an issue here about stealth....

Love you girl.... mwah.  I know your heart and I like the concerns and where I know they come from.  Compassion.

Nails out...

;)
Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the red pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the little blue pills - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes

Sh'e took the little blue ones.
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Jessica Merriman

Quote from: Satinjoy on September 08, 2014, 12:08:14 PM
That gets controversial, and we can let that controversy go in this thread.  It is not needed.  More an issue here about stealth....
I guess I did it again. I apologize.  :embarrassed:
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suzifrommd


SJ, you're in a place where I was about two years ago. I even grew my nails out but kept the rest of my presentation completely male.

It ate at me in ways I couldn't bear. Spending time around people who had actually transitioned produced feelings I couldn't fight. When I realized it was within my abilities to walk the earth as an actual woman, there was no way my gender identity would let me be male. And it ate at me whenever women subtly excluded me (or males included me). How could I tell them that I was really one of them, even though I didn't look like it, etc.?

One major difference between you and me is that I was unwilling to stop my transition to save my marriage (unclear whether it would have worked anyway...) My wife was very supportive, but ended up furious that I chose my gender identity over her. She understands I had no choice but she's angry nonetheless.

People tell me how much courage I have to transition, but it would have taken far, far more courage to stay the way I was and face what seemed like a bleak life hiding my true self.

BTW, pic looks great  ;)
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
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JulieBlair

Quote from: suzifrommd on September 08, 2014, 12:26:00 PM
SJ, you're in a place where I was about two years ago. I even grew my nails out but kept the rest of my presentation completely male.

It ate at me in ways I couldn't bear. Spending time around people who had actually transitioned produced feelings I couldn't fight. When I realized it was within my abilities to walk the earth as an actual woman, there was no way my gender identity would let me be male. And it ate at me whenever women subtly excluded me (or males included me). How could I tell them that I was really one of them, even though I didn't look like it, etc.?

One major difference between you and me is that I was unwilling to stop my transition to save my marriage (unclear whether it would have worked anyway...) My wife was very supportive, but ended up furious that I chose my gender identity over her. She understands I had no choice but she's angry nonetheless.

People tell me how much courage I have to transition, but it would have taken far, far more courage to stay the way I was and face what seemed like a bleak life hiding my true self.

BTW, pic looks great  ;)

Ditto what Suzi said except my wife is not only angry, and hurt - she is gone.

You know that I admire you for your commitment to an impossible juggle.  I pray it works, If it doesn't one of us will be on an airplane.  Miss Satinjoy, you are loved beyond measure, treasured beyond measure, supported now and always.  Pinky Promise. ;)

Julie
I am my own best friend and my own worst enemy.  :D
Full Time 18 June 2014
Esprit can be found at http://espritconf.com/
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Jessica Merriman

Quote from: JulieBlair on September 08, 2014, 01:18:07 PM
You know that I admire you for your commitment to an impossible juggle.
See SJ, I am not the only one who see's it. We really do care about you so please do not take this as anything other than caring for your well being. I know you want to hold onto everything, but the cost may end up too high. Sorry, I won't comment again I just care so much. I won't say anything else.  :(
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Satinjoy

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on September 08, 2014, 01:27:00 PM
See SJ, I am not the only one who see's it. We really do care about you so please do not take this as anything other than caring for your well being. I know you want to hold onto everything, but the cost may end up too high. Sorry, I won't comment again I just care so much. I won't say anything else.  :(

My dears, I'm trigger proof and have a safety net and an escape plan... no worries.  Right my green warrior friend?  I know she'll read this.

Raising the stakes Lady Jess.  The loser of the bet takes the winner out lingerie shopping.

Oh My..... ;)

Really, we are polling here, on personal experience based on gender diversity.... I knew the risks when I hit the wall the first time and its all ok.  I am betting however we get feedback of others where dysphoria relented.... like Auntie Shan.... for one... and the Female born will also have good input.

Thoughts dear men, women, and free spirits of trans?  Not on my stuff, but on your experience over the long haul.

Blessings, nails out
Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the red pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the little blue pills - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes

Sh'e took the little blue ones.
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ativan

Totally sick of binary trans attitudes about gender. Your's isn't any better than anyone elses.
Totally sick of others thinking their identities are somehow better than others.
Totally sick of people finding fault with presentations, and identities.
If you're binary, you're binary. If you aren't, you aren't.
The only thing anyone knows is their own, you don't get to pretend like you own or know anyone elses.
This is the stuff of dysphoria, binary trans get it from cisciety.
Non-binaries get it from them as well as binary trans who can't get past the ignorance to see they are perpetuating it.
Get over it.
Totally sick of it.
Ativan
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Jessica Merriman

Sorry Ativan. I will no longer post in any non binary postings. I was just trying to help by identifying similarities between same of what the OP commented on in relation to what I experienced. Nothing else.  :-\
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Taka

well, what can i say...
i have been in a place where i couldn't find balance, and i was there for over two years, i think.
it's difficult to describe the feeling i had, but it was mostly one of being several separate people.
it hurt, that this one and that one didn't have a place here or there.

it took time. a whole lot of time, to learn that all the parts of me are me, and that my body is my own, to be loved by me, not hated.
i really don't know how it happened, that i found a way to embrace myself. forgive but not forget. starting to look forward to the future.
but i was already falling apart by then. lost sight of any future, only hanging on by the thinnest thread for the sake of my daughter.

and it still took more heartbreak to gather myself. i split up, into tiny odd parts, switching back and forth with and without control.
it was harsh. i almost broke.
but with the help of good friends, i also pulled myself together and became one.

maybe satinjoy needs more time. it could be all that is required to find balance.
or it might be that you have to dive much deeper into your soul, to the places that you fear the most, in order to find your balance.
what you fear might not be what you think you fear.
the hurt you feel might be a symptom of something being wrong in a completely different place.

all you can do is take the time you need, the time all of you need, to figure this out.
answers often lie on the bottom of a pit, or even a whole sea to drown in.
but you could also get lucky and find your answers in the most unexpected places.

i want to help you, but i don't know how.
all i can do is try to see all of you, and meet you as you are, and honestly as myself.
hoping to be a good mirror for you, that can reflect you as you are.
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Satinjoy

Well now, this went into a disasterous place in a heck of a hurry, didn't it.

For the mtf trans - how can I be authentic when I have real, authentic male sides to the diamond, when through deep therapy the lies have been exposed and the truth of who I am revealed as non binary, complete with diagnosis, and how could I possibly transition to full time when I have no desire whatsoever to go out in public as Satinjoy?  Because in public I become SJ and an quite comfortable that way.

Don't answer that here, answer it in your hearts dears.

My question and intent is this:  How do we live true to ourselves in the outside world, with no peer pressure influencing our choices.  Is that not for the good of trans if there are no hindering circumstantial issues such as existing marrage and not turning it lesbian or gay?

Lets get back on topic.  Its not about is transition inevitable, or should I transition, or can I remain true to my core.  It is about social pressure and not caving into it, unless we cause pain to our loved ones by doing so.  I have no desire to present female outside the home.  I never have.  I am not female socially, not at all.  That is truth and is why I identify as genderfluid, in just one component of self.

Nails out, teeth bared, watch the triggers dear ones.  We must not question others gender identities.  That is a very difficult place to go.   People fall of tightropes and edges on triggers.   I own my truth and I will stand by it.  I paid a fortune to find it.  My discomfort is nothing compared to what it used to be, nothing even slightly close, since accepting both binaries simultaneously thereby crushing the fear and  destroying the idea that I was doomed to lose everything, which I was willing to do at one time just to get estrogen.

SOOOO, do we compromise based on social pressure.  I wish to heck I had never asked.  I just wanted  to find out if folk wore jewelry or earings or something cool, or had nails like me.  How they blend themselves and are beautiful as a result.

Son of a bi--tch this wasn't supposed to go this way.  Sh--t.  Lets not screw this up folks.

No I am not offended by anyone, I get the paradynes, I understand the motives,  I have seen from all the angles when I found out who the heck I am, I know your points of view and appreciate the concern, but they are in error.   You are loved by me and I get it, but please don't worry and I am going to make all of you buy me something nice when you realize that this is real.  I cannot and will not be inauthentic to my core being.  That core is neither male nor female, and I know it.  Satinjoy remains cloaked.  My nails and my being trans, are out to the world, and without apology.

SJ.
Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the red pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the little blue pills - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes

Sh'e took the little blue ones.
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JulieBlair

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:   Satinjoy, I love you  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Taka, even if you didn't know it, you wrote that post for me and I started to cry.  It is where I often am, and I can not seem to articulate it even to myself.  Thank You

Julie
I am my own best friend and my own worst enemy.  :D
Full Time 18 June 2014
Esprit can be found at http://espritconf.com/
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justpat

   Taka as Julie said, a beautiful post by you.
  SJ you know that I support and understand you.To live life is to compromise for what is really most important to you. Family is of the utmost importance in your life and should be they are your foundation.You have found a way to balance both sides of of your life and for that you have gained my utmost respect .It is a rough road we travel in our journey and you are making the best of a difficult journey.
  My journey was similar from 1968 till 2013 I wandered the badlands and wilderness trying to keep a family together and failing in the end .The blessing I had was being able to keep a good job through it all in a very male industry. Coming out even if I had truly realized who and what I am would have been impossible.I was deep stealth all my life till in 2013 I imploded then totally exploded and ended up being the person I am today THANK GOD I AM FREE at last to be who I was for all those long years.
  Head up, eyes open and watching arms open, waiting, you know I am here for you. The GW   Patty
  BTW I would be proud to take you shopping any day.
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Satinjoy

Loved talking with you last night Patty dear.  I vented an awful lot of frustration again onto you your very strong support system.

The thing I love about you most is that you get it, that I am true non binary, but you also understand the volatility of an nb mtf marrage with a straight cis woman.  And how many times have you put humpty dumpty back together again when sh'e feel off the rope.  You, and Atavan, and Aisla, and Julie at times, a dear friend, all have had to pick up a 3 quarters dead fairy and bring h'er life back.  No crap.  3 times we have gone  through this.  And my hormones are still at pregnancy levels due to the endo's accidental overdose on E Cyp- although now I feel really great hormonally.  If those moods swing it'll be auntie Shan trying to ground me in the emotional mess that would result in a pool of self pity, fear, and general bullcrap.

Interesting I thought Satinjoy would be in control right now but SJ is.  SJ is male, Satinjoy is female.  Take the cues from the signatures when I post.  Both are me, I am SJ Satinjoy and proud of it.

I need to address this diverted thread.

First every single post that is in it was delivered in Love.  The people on the thread that are mtf are my closest friends.  I fiercely love and protect Jessica, we know that, look at the creature thread.  Others see what is really minor dysphoric pain, and  they react because they don't like to see me suffer at all with it.  No worries.  Part of my very unique gender is this discomfort.  I know exactly how to handle it.  Investing in therapy did this.  Being here did this.   Ativan sees the threat and remembers how hard it was to put me back together off forum.  So will Aisla who is on vacation and is missing this, Aisla is the third leg of the stool of my support system on forum...  So Ativan knows the consequences if my dysphoria siezes the opportunity to take me into the place of inauthenticity and self deception.  Thats for me girls, I am not mtf.  Physically, yes, big time, mentally and spiritually emphatically no.  And so Ativan, a warrior like Patty, reacts to protect me and the forum.  Of course they will.  And you react in hurt, because you spoke in love from your paradyne.  Your vision and angle of my diamond.

My dear, dear loves, you must understand.... your mirrors are pink and covered with glitter and feathers and the raw reality of your world, mounted on a wall of pain and victory.... you see me behind you embracing you and the reflection is pink.... my body is pink...so you apply pink to my reality.

But my mirror is on the side, and its 360 degrees, and it is every shade of the rainbow as you pivot from one to the other.  it is made of pure diamond and some is feathers and incense and lace and nylon, actually all of them are rimmed with this, but as you turn, it moves to another self perception.  Shades of rich violet and blue and the green of healing and the red of a fire that burns in my heart, that is who Satinjoy is.  SJ Satinjoy.  My emotional strength comes from her, my call to action and the intense protector of my family comes from him.  Together look out.  The survivor that crawled out of a condemned apartment building in the first block of harlem to get sober --- because I nearly drank myself to death to give myself permission to cross dress and get laid.

So you see through your pink mirrors, but i see through another mirror brilliantly, and it lights it all up, the ego, the pride, the self deceptions, the ugly motives, the beautiful motives, the compelling desire to help, the need to be pretty, the joy of trans, the fierce and powerful protector of the woman I love, my wife.  The woman I protected from sex predators and viscous racial bigots, fleeing overnight when the cops wouldn't help and burying ourselves in NYC in an attic, a family of 5, later on, where I am now, putting the minds of my children back together, using every resource we have, shattered by the assho-les of this world.  She is third world folks, we are from totally different cultures.  I wont say which.

I rant.  I triggered.  My point is that we have differing mirrors of self perception, differing and VALID realities, yours are, mine are.  It is against the good of trans to ever ever invalidate our gender perceptions.  It can be accidental, it can be deliberate, but bottom line is that it is dangerous.  Sadly so.

Genderfluid, which I am socially, is real.  The difference between an mtf and a non binary mtf that is socially fluid is this....IMO....the fluidity comes from a place deep within and is not a costume.  For an mtf, forcing a male presentation is inauthentic and a costume.  Not so for the fluid, for it is real.  We can argue that we learned the behavior.  OK, but if it is real.... I am a broadway level union actor.  Roles are created from deep within.  it is amuzing that I play tortured males, those tormented by their past... funny.  As well as many other characters, I am a character actor, I can be anything.  Why?  Because I am nobody and everybody.  Because the core knows it is all facets of the diamond.  But if you can act, it has to be real and come from a place deep inside you.  My point?  I drew on myself deep inside and became fluid when I was young.

Satinjoy was chained and flogged for decades, and only now has found out it is safe to come out on the forum.  The support I got from the pic was overwhelming.  I  thought i looked like some kind of joke.   Baby apparently I am no joke at all.  Thank you my loves for that wonderful validation and support.  It completely changed my acceptance of Satinjoy, it stregthened her beyond measure, I am no longer ashamed.   You did this.  You got me to this place.  Kudos my dears, kudos.

Finally, girls, I am DES poisoned.  My mother took powerful doses to aviod having her, what, 10th miscarriage?  In that womb, I believe and others also, that my central nervous system as in what interprets physical stimulus such as touch, what runs my motor nerves, why everyone who has ever seen me trans says why does it look so natural for you... that was modified by this dyethyl silbestoerol, so were my endocrine receptors, my skeleton, my testicle on the left side, my emotions...I think anyway... it is an involuntary transition to mtf in the womb itself.  I have the characteristics of a DES Son.  The higher logic functions were not transitioned.  That leaves me what.... a freak?  Or a weapon formed for trans to reach out and bring us into a place of harmony and understanding and be a bridge between the mtf and nb, and reach out to others.....

In a way I am glad for the blow up here.  It has solidified my position, it has polished my diamond, it has reestablished exactly who I am by grounding me in facts and truth.

The wind has had a gale strenth gust across the diamond tightrope.  What did that do my dears?

It dried my beautful hair and blew up my skirt, showing the truth to all who dare look.

Love to all here, blessings, joy, and I serious unconditionally love and embrace every single one of you from the passionate fire that burns in my heart for all of those born trans, mtf, ftm, free spirits, I don't care who you are, you have my intense and zealous support.

SJ and Satinjoy, and the Core me......

Nails out, hair on, steady and flying high.

Now my dear watchers... the moderators, Cindy, VM, Jessica, or whoever is watching, please lock my thread.

PM me if you wish to go farther my dears, you will be embraced and loved up.  I am not scolding anyone here at all.  Its the nature of the deal.  We have to heal this rift for the good of  trans, and embrace each other unconditionally.

If you are a newbie, I hope you have not been triggered.  This stuff has been the real heavy stuff that can happen.  Just be you dears, and be free.

Blessings, and passionate love to all here.

Satinjoy

Morpheus: This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the red pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the little blue pills - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes

Sh'e took the little blue ones.
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luna nyan

Very busy and exhausted with work right now, so won't be around much for next few weeks.

Quick reply:
Apparently I present quite andro these days, even though I'm fully dressed male.  Shaped brows, hair "long" for a conservative hairstyle - fringe is down just past my eyes, and facial changes from HRT.

I don't dress often.  At this point for me, there is no need - it doesn't add anything more or relieve anything.  When I do, it's from clinical curiosity to see whether or not things fit me better or not.

Social obligations have defined the limits of my transition.  Am I truly NB or binary mtf?  I believe the real question is am I content?  The answer is yes, so the previous question is moot and irrelevant.  I don't believe my presentation is a compromise - it is who I am at this point in time.
Drifting down the river of life...
My 4+ years non-transitioning HRT experience
Ask me anything!  I promise you I know absolutely everything about nothing! :D
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Taka

Quote from: Satinjoy on September 08, 2014, 03:31:29 PM
How do we live true to ourselves in the outside world, with no peer pressure influencing our choices.  Is that not for the good of trans if there are no hindering circumstantial issues such as existing marrage and not turning it lesbian or gay?
oh well. while waiting for a mod to come by, i'll try to answer the original question.
we have offtracked a bit, out of concern for satinjoy, somehow ending up in a mess that none of us intended.
it would be good if we could learn something from this, rather than let it end what could become an interesting discussion.

i do not believe that trans is a cause. it is what we are, and within every minority, there are stronger and weaker individuals.
the cause is to create some place and acceptance for us all in this world. fighting for this cause should only be a voluntary choice.
not fighting for it, should be a choice that we all can understand. not fighting too hard for the sake of family, is an honorable choice.

living true to myself is difficult. peer pressure will never cease.
i'm not out as trans, it would only complicate matters which are in actuallity really simple.
instead, i present differently, on a quest to open minds to diversity.

i've gone through at least ten different hair colors. several different haircuts.
male clothing, female clothing, odd clothing. and unkempt presentation (some mornings i just can't find that hairbrush...)
people see me and judge me by my smile.
i look odd, but not ugly. most responses are "cool" or "refreshing".

many envy me this thing that they mistake as "courage".
in reality, i'm just too chicken to do anything more extreme quite yet.
i'm thinking, that changing slowly and carefully might be the better choice. people will get used to it, they expect something new any time.
letting them see the outside shange while the inside remains the same, will hopefully give them an opportunity to learn. to think twice, the next time they see womeone whom they might have judged by their looks at first glance.

but the most important thing i do to be true to myself, is to no longer fear slipping up once in a while.
i say weird things sometimes. things that sound off coming from what they perceive as a woman.
or what they think is a man. depends whether i'm online or offline.
i just let myself say things in the way that is natural for the me that is then and there.
i let myself be just a little more honest every day. to myself and to others.

in time, i will find the means to transition. it's difficult, because in my country, i'm not trans enough.
to me, the most important thing in being true to myself, has become to not give in to the system.
never believe how others say that things are supposed to be.
consider it, but find my own truth.
i will not pretend to be someone else to get a transition that i might not even want.
i will not lie in order to get closer to the one i want to present to the world.
lying would be defeat, the challenge is to live the truth that i know, resisting the tempation to take the easy way out.
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Jessica Merriman

Quote from: Satinjoy on September 09, 2014, 06:33:13 AM
Now my dear watchers... the moderators, Cindy, VM, Jessica, or whoever is watching, please lock my thread.
Locked per OP request.  :)
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