Transwomen with Beards

[Kim]

Um, oops and my dearest deepest apologies for I misunderstood this whole thing. I thought you were all talking of someone making a choice not to shave, not about someone who can't help this hairy situation. Yes, I know of gender women who have hormone problems and have facial hair on them. They use various types of inhibitors much like I do. This type of situation has got to be hard on the individual. Even if one were to choose to have facial hair it is their free choice, but they need to know that in choosing they are mor than sure to draw attention to themselves. Again, my apologies for my previous response.
                     Kim   

[Luc]

As far as the ftm issue goes, there's so much more that goes into being a guy, it's insane. Show me any chick with a beard, and try to tell me that chick is a guy because of the beard... uh-uh. And why is physical appearance so important? FFS, electro, painstaking procedures that don't do much except make your outside more what the status quo expects it to be... these are simply additional methods to mask the internal. As long as we perpetuate this societal more that it's what's outside that counts, transsexuals, intersexuals, androgynes, and everyone else will continue to be persecuted for things they simply cannot alter.

Dino

[SarahFaceDoom]

Keira, you can't presume anything.  I don't know if you're talking about an exact real person, or just making one up, but you really don't know the story behind having the beard or mustache vs. not.  You can't learn that without discussing with the person why they've chosen to do that.

I just think a lot of the attitudes expressed towards even the idea of a woman with a beard, are pretty disgusting.  We are talking about a human being here.  Whoever she is, she has a reason that beard is there, and it's really not for you to say that it makes her more or less of a woman.  As women, I think we need to be the most accepting--it's hard enough being a woman going up against men, but it's even harder if you have to fight for legitimacy with other women.

A lot of the reasons for being upset by the beard, have to do with what is acceptable and not acceptable female beauty, as defined by...guess who...men.  I would rather find reasons to support a fellow sister than reasons to tear her down, you know?

It's not only men who define feminine beauty as not having facial hair and certainly not beards. Are you not aware of the millions of dollars (probably billions) spent by GGs to remove facial hair? The person in my scenario pretty much just looks like a guy and acts like a guy. Should this person be accepted in women only environs just because she internally IDs as female?

And why do women spend billions of dollars to remove facial hair?  It's because men have defined that as the standard of beauty for the times right now.  It's got nothing to do with real beauty, and everything to do with making people feel ashamed and "less than".

And yes, why shouldn't the person in your scenario be accepted in women's only environs if she internally IDs as female?  Femininity CAN be expressed externally, but it's not always(otherwise none of us would even be here on this forum!).

And <3 Dino's posts on this.

Posted on: August 05, 2007, 05:35:06 PM

Who on earth was saying she wasn't a person, certainly not me.
I'm saying she's got the be realistic about other's reactions and that
she doesn't seem to have any of the usual GID symptoms.

I don't know if its bigotry to point out that

What does it matter whether she has GID or not?  She identifies as a woman, so why not afford her that respect?  I don't really care how the rest of society supposedly will treat her.  You don't have to be a part of the rest of society and make it any kind of issue.

[Nero]

I must admit that I am squeamish when it comes to hairy females.
This all started as a child when my favorite uncle married this...this person. My folks were very opposed to the marriage. She was so crude and low class, and a dog. It wasn't her bark, it was her face.
My mother tried in vain to dissuade him. But it was not to be.

So, there I was as flower girl and trailing behind me was the blushing bride. With a freakin beard!
You'd have thought she'd at least have shaved on her wedding day.   It was quite a sight.
A bearded, gross, hulking ogre in a satin and lace gown, the train trailing all the way down the walk.
My poor uncle. He's one of those, 'I only look at the heart kinda people' .

And then, the image I wish I could forget - My folks and uncle went out to pick up dinner, leaving me alone with the bearded ogre. And then she bent to do something, and lo and behold, she had plumber's crack and in that crack sprouted about two handfuls of thick dark hair, all the way up and down the crack.
I was very little and I felt bad, like I had seen something I shouldn't have seen. I lost my appetite and wouldn't look in her direction. I weighed for days the question of 'should I tell mom and dad, should I tell my uncle? There's something wrong with her. She may be an alien from another planet. Maybe my uncle should know who or what he married.'
In the end, I was too scared to say anything. But to this day, I'm squeamish about hairy women.

So I completely get where you and others are coming from. It's gross and she should at least shave it.
You can get razors for a few bucks. There's no excuse for a full beard, or a full ass crack of hair. Women should take more pride in themselves than that.

And just in case anyone was wondering - she was a GG. They had 3 kids.

[SarahFaceDoom]

I must admit that I am squeamish when it comes to hairy females.
This all started as a child when my favorite uncle married this...this person. My folks were very opposed to the marriage. She was so crude and low class, and a dog. It wasn't her bark, it was her face.
My mother tried in vain to dissuade him. But it was not to be.

So, there I was as flower girl and trailing behind me was the blushing bride. With a freakin beard!
You'd have thought she'd at least have shaved on her wedding day.  It was quite a sight.
A bearded, gross, hulking ogre in a satin and lace gown, the train trailing all the way down the walk.
My poor uncle. He's one of those, 'I only look at the heart kinda people' .

And then, the image I wish I could forget - My folks and uncle went out to pick up dinner, leaving me alone with the bearded ogre. And then she bent to do something, and lo and behold, she had plumber's crack and in that crack sprouted about two handfuls of thick dark hair, all the way up and down the crack.
I was very little and I felt bad, like I had seen something I shouldn't have seen. I lost my appetite and wouldn't look in her direction. I weighed for days the question of 'should I tell mom and dad, should I tell my uncle? There's something wrong with her. She may be an alien from another planet. Maybe my uncle should know who or what he married.'
In the end, I was too scared to say anything. But to this day, I'm squeamish about hairy women.

So I completely get where you and others are coming from. It's gross and she should at least shave it.
You can get razors for a few bucks. There's no excuse for a full beard, or a full ass crack of hair. Women should take more pride in themselves than that.

Women should take more pride in themselves than that?  What 1950's hole of logic did that statement crawl out of?  Cute anecdote I guess.  Except completely bigoted.  AND sexist.  Congrats on the daily double.  Again....a woman with a beard is not somehow failing as a woman.  Your revulsion at it though, is I think a basic failing of humanity.  How can you say such mean things about another human being?  About her wedding day, no less!  You compared her to dogs and ogres!  How is that not dehumanizing?  Whether it was a a choice or something she couldn't change, you have no right to somehow assert that she is less than human, and in any way LESS than you on that basis.  Is it really that hard to replace bearded lady with, lady with a penis, or lady with stubble, or lady with shaved head, or any of the other million things a woman could do to defy the patriarchal standards of beauty?  Is empathy really that hard?

[Nero]

I must admit that I am squeamish when it comes to hairy females.
This all started as a child when my favorite uncle married this...this person. My folks were very opposed to the marriage. She was so crude and low class, and a dog. It wasn't her bark, it was her face.
My mother tried in vain to dissuade him. But it was not to be.

So, there I was as flower girl and trailing behind me was the blushing bride. With a freakin beard!
You'd have thought she'd at least have shaved on her wedding day.  It was quite a sight.
A bearded, gross, hulking ogre in a satin and lace gown, the train trailing all the way down the walk.
My poor uncle. He's one of those, 'I only look at the heart kinda people' .

And then, the image I wish I could forget - My folks and uncle went out to pick up dinner, leaving me alone with the bearded ogre. And then she bent to do something, and lo and behold, she had plumber's crack and in that crack sprouted about two handfuls of thick dark hair, all the way up and down the crack.
I was very little and I felt bad, like I had seen something I shouldn't have seen. I lost my appetite and wouldn't look in her direction. I weighed for days the question of 'should I tell mom and dad, should I tell my uncle? There's something wrong with her. She may be an alien from another planet. Maybe my uncle should know who or what he married.'
In the end, I was too scared to say anything. But to this day, I'm squeamish about hairy women.

So I completely get where you and others are coming from. It's gross and she should at least shave it.
You can get razors for a few bucks. There's no excuse for a full beard, or a full ass crack of hair. Women should take more pride in themselves than that.

Women should take more pride in themselves than that?  What 1950's hole of logic did that statement crawl out of?  Cute anecdote I guess.  Except completely bigoted.  AND sexist.  Congrats on the daily double.  Again....a woman with a beard is not somehow failing as a woman.  Your revulsion at it though, is I think a basic failing of humanity.  How can you say such mean things about another human being?  About her wedding day, no less!  You compared her to dogs and ogres!  How is that not dehumanizing?  Whether it was a a choice or something she couldn't change, you have no right to somehow assert that she is less than human, and in any way LESS than you on that basis.  Is it really that hard to replace bearded lady with, lady with a penis, or lady with stubble, or lady with shaved head, or any of the other million things a woman could do to defy the patriarchal standards of beauty?  Is empathy really that hard?

She was marrying into my family. She had tricked my beloved uncle into marriage. It was embarrassing.
If today, my uncle married a transwoman, I'd be totally cool with it whether or not she had SRS, as long as she did her best to look like a woman, and not the creature from the black lagoon.

[SarahFaceDoom]

I must admit that I am squeamish when it comes to hairy females.
This all started as a child when my favorite uncle married this...this person. My folks were very opposed to the marriage. She was so crude and low class, and a dog. It wasn't her bark, it was her face.
My mother tried in vain to dissuade him. But it was not to be.

So, there I was as flower girl and trailing behind me was the blushing bride. With a freakin beard!
You'd have thought she'd at least have shaved on her wedding day.  It was quite a sight.
A bearded, gross, hulking ogre in a satin and lace gown, the train trailing all the way down the walk.
My poor uncle. He's one of those, 'I only look at the heart kinda people' .

And then, the image I wish I could forget - My folks and uncle went out to pick up dinner, leaving me alone with the bearded ogre. And then she bent to do something, and lo and behold, she had plumber's crack and in that crack sprouted about two handfuls of thick dark hair, all the way up and down the crack.
I was very little and I felt bad, like I had seen something I shouldn't have seen. I lost my appetite and wouldn't look in her direction. I weighed for days the question of 'should I tell mom and dad, should I tell my uncle? There's something wrong with her. She may be an alien from another planet. Maybe my uncle should know who or what he married.'
In the end, I was too scared to say anything. But to this day, I'm squeamish about hairy women.

So I completely get where you and others are coming from. It's gross and she should at least shave it.
You can get razors for a few bucks. There's no excuse for a full beard, or a full ass crack of hair. Women should take more pride in themselves than that.

Women should take more pride in themselves than that?  What 1950's hole of logic did that statement crawl out of?  Cute anecdote I guess.  Except completely bigoted.  AND sexist.  Congrats on the daily double.  Again....a woman with a beard is not somehow failing as a woman.  Your revulsion at it though, is I think a basic failing of humanity.  How can you say such mean things about another human being?  About her wedding day, no less!  You compared her to dogs and ogres!  How is that not dehumanizing?  Whether it was a a choice or something she couldn't change, you have no right to somehow assert that she is less than human, and in any way LESS than you on that basis.  Is it really that hard to replace bearded lady with, lady with a penis, or lady with stubble, or lady with shaved head, or any of the other million things a woman could do to defy the patriarchal standards of beauty?  Is empathy really that hard?

She was marrying into my family. She had tricked my beloved uncle into marriage. It was embarrassing.
If today, my uncle married a transwoman, I'd be totally cool with it whether or not she had SRS, as long as she did her best to look like a woman, and not the creature from the black lagoon.

Yes a woman with a beard "tricked" your uncle into marriage...and 3 kids, did you say?  Maybe you should adopt your Uncle's more enlightened view of what a woman is vs. isn't. 

[katia]

If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.

ha ha ha ha ha ha  i would refer "her" to the closest sanitarium. >

[Ms Bev]

This is a very interesting question of gender definition, and gender identity.  I was asked 3 days ago by my fellow salespersons to wait on a lady in a sundress, and her.....boyfriend?  Right away, I could understand their discomfort in dealing with this woman.  She didn't have facial hair, but did have more chest hair than I ever did before it all fell out (thank you God, and spiro).  I mean she had a dense curly mat from the neck down, clearly exposed in a lowcut sundress.  Also, though, she had a very female-looking frame.

I don't know if she had breasts, because to know this would have me apparently stare at her chest hair as well.

This was my instant decision:  She was presenting as a woman, and so I treated her as one, and it was only then, that she began calling me Beverly, and referring to me as she, and her, to her accompanying male friend, even though I clearly presented as female, and am not often read by most customers.

I felt I had been involved in some cosmic test!

So, women who have hair may not be attractive, they may not be appealing, and they might make me feel icky, but.......they're saying to the world they are female says to me they are female.  I know....they could be transvestites instead, but I have never seen a transvestite that did not do all in their power to pass, including shaving their chest.

She's female.  But it was a tough test!

Bev

[SarahFaceDoom]

If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.

ha ha ha ha ha ha  i would refer "her" to the closest sanitarium. >

Because she should be locked up?  How dare she transgress any gender stereotypes.  Again, this is mindboggling that so many of you fail to see the similarities between the discrimination you try so hard to avoid, and are hurt so much by, and what you are saying about other women, just based upon their facial hair.

[katia]

hey, that's what I would do.  yet if you want to hear more, here it is; i'd never, ever socialize with someone like that.  you are welcome to do what you want, be friends with them, have this person at your table or whatever.  just don't tell me what i have to do.  ok?

[SarahFaceDoom]

hey, that's what I do.  yet if you want to hear more, here it is;
i'd never, ever socialize with someone like that.  you are welcome to do what you want, be friends with them, have this person at your table or whatever.  just don't tell me what i have to do.  ok?

Ok.  Well then don't tell people who don't fit in the little box of reality you have drawn out, that they should be locked up, or that it is THEY who have the problem.

The extent of your own rights only extends so far as they don't hurt other people.  And the attitude you expressed is hurtful to other people.  And what you are advocating is the maltreatment of others based on their outward appearance.  It would be one thing to just say nothing and live your life without having said it.  But you are actually going out of your way to express these negative hurtful attitudes, so in that context, I am very justified to come in and tell you that what you are saying is wrong.

[katia]

wrong?  where?  here?  that may be.  but we don't live here, do we?  we live outside, in the real world.  ask regular (non-ts)  folks about this and see for yourself what they will tell you.  they wouldn't hesitate to help me lock up the hypothetical person of this topic.

[SarahFaceDoom]

wrong?  where?  here?  that may be.  but we don't live here, do we?  we live outside, in the real world.  ask regular (non-ts)  folks about this and see for yourself what they will tell you.  they wouldn't hesitate to help me lock up the hypothetical person of this topic.

I have asked regular non-ts folks about it, and they think it's funny that TS people with all the discrimination they put up with, would turn around and discriminate against a woman because she has a beard. 

[Owen]

 I would need to keep the face clean shaven if I going to pass as woman. I would not even think of going out without cleaning the face of all hair and covering up the shadow, with makeup properly applied.

Linda Ann

Love being female

[NatalieC]

It is disturbing to see a transwoman with a beard. I feel sorry for them that they dont get it removed when you can. But if they want acceptance in the general community they are kidding themselves. There are enough freaks out there already. And it gives the Trans-scene a bad image. I dont like it at all but it seems as long as people can do something they will. Why you would want facial hair is beyond me. It is kinda sexy on the right guy....But on a woman trans or not..I dont think so!

[Ms Bev]

I've had so much grief myself being transsexual, and transitioning, and being lesbian, I just can't find it in my heart to be anti-anyone.  Live and let live.

Bev

[SarahFaceDoom]

I've had so much grief myself being transsexual, and transitioning, and being lesbian, I just can't find it in my heart to be anti-anyone.  Live and let live.

Bev

Amen Bev!

[Shana A]

I'd like a world in which people didn't make such a big deal about a woman wanting to grow a beard or a man wanting to wear a dress. Or whatever. As long as nobody hurts anyone else.

Zythyra

[tinkerbell]

BTW I meant this person is not PRE-transition (real or imagined) AND has a fully developed mustache and goatee, not a shadow.

Another question is, if there are functions that are restricted to women only, should a person like this be granted access?

Hmmmm...I'd question the authenticity of this person.  How serious is this individual about transition?  Unfortunately Melissa, we live in a society that is focused on physical appearance.  Yeah, yeah, I know what some of you are going to say, but we do live in that kind of world whether we like it or not.  If we lived in a cave, isolated from the rest of humanity, perhaps then we could say that we don't care, but that is not the case, is it?  Besides some states in the US who support transgender individuals have very strict laws about who should or shouldn't use public facilities labeled for an specific sex.  Personally, I think that this person shouldn't be allowed to use a ladies room.  I would be concerned for my safety, for I wouldn't know if this person is for real or just someone who is trying to harrass women.

Definitions: Gender Identity applies only to those individuals who, with the
documented support of medical or psychological professionals
and in accordance with the recognized Informed Consent Model of
Care or the Harry S. Benjamin Standards of Care, are changing or
have changed their physical characteristics to facilitate personal
and public redefinition of their sex as opposite that which they
were assigned at birth.

Sexual orientation means having or being perceived as having
an emotional, physical or sexual attachment to another person
without regard to the sex of that person, or having or being
perceived as having an orientation for such an attachment, or
being perceived as having a self-image or identity not traditionally
associated with one's biological maleness or femaleness.

Transitioning
Employees: The process for transitioning employees is extensive. It is
accomplished with the help of medical professionals in
accordance with recognized standards of care. In general, the
process will involve psychological testing, monitoring, and
counseling, hormone therapy and a trial living period of at least
one-year to ascertain the level of comfort in the reassigned
gender. It is usually at this stage that the employer is given notice
of the employee's diagnosis and intentions.


Restroom Access
Issues: Restroom access issues need to be handled with sensitivity not
only to our obligation to provide transitioning employees with the
same level of restroom access available to non-transgendered
employees, but also to the emotional responses to co-workers to
the idea of sharing facilities with a transgendered co-worker. Our
restroom access policy is clear. An employee should use the
facility based on his/her current gender. However, once transition
is complete, a transgendered employee has the right to the same
access as a non-transgendered employee of the same gender.

Appearance
Standards: Employees who are transitioning are required, prior to surgery, to
assume the role for their reassigned gender. This process is
known as the Real Life Experience. Although professionals may
recommend living in the desired gender as a step to surgery, the
decision as to when and how to begin the real-life experience
remains the employee's responsibility. Part of that experience is
dressing in the reassigned gender role.
A transitioning employee's attire should remain professionally
appropriate to the office in which they work and the job they hold.
The same dress codes and rules for behavior apply to
transgendered as to other employees. If, as a manager, you are
concerned about the appearance your transgendered employee
will present when she or he starts coming to work in the other
gender role, ask for a picture of her or him in professional attire. If
you still have concerns, these should be addressed with your
employee. If she or he dresses or behaves inappropriately, this
issue should be dealt with the same way it would with any other
employee.


*Employees may use any restroom that corresponds with their full-time gender presentation. Management requires only that, after notifying HR of a decision to transition, a transitioning employee present according to his or her gender identity consistently thereafter.
*A transitioning employee may agree to use a unisex restroom, if one is available and reasonably accessible, for some period during the process of transition.
Employees may use a restroom that corresponds with their biological sex; employees who have completed sex reassignment surgery may use restrooms that correspond with the biological sex to which they transitioned.
*Employers should also note that new Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act regulations reinforce the confidentiality of employee medical information. As a result, unless an employee tells management directly, management may not know whether or when an employee has had sex-reassignment surgery, and therefore may have difficulty implementing a policy based on this standard.

Quote extracted from this link.


I believe that the laws are pretty straightforward.  I'm not sure what the laws are in other states which support TS people, but I'm ready to bet that they are pretty much similar to California's.

Twisting the laws and having our own agendas on things are not beneficial in any way.  This behavior only causes more chaos and confusion and if we are looking forward to being recongnized as our target gender,  then I'm afraid that we are not going to get anywhwere if we keep on acting this way (Melissa's scenario).

tink