Transwomen with Beards

[mallard500]

If you met a person who had a mustache and a goatee and ID'd herself as a transwoman, how would you react? And I am not referring to someone who is PRE-transition,this is someone who is supposedly presenting as female.

Personally, not knowing anymore about the situation than what's described above, my reaction would be totally neutral.  (OK, in truth, I would probably envy her for having facial hair, because I'd like some too!)  But aside from that, it's frankly not my business to judge - no more than I want people to be judging me.

Even if her choice is nothing more than an "F you" to society, I can't blame her. As well pointed out in earlier posts, the whole definition of 'what makes an acceptable woman' has historically been determined by men - not exactly the most qualified people IMHO to make that decision.

It's been the traditional male definition of femininity that tells us that women have to be hairless, thin, big busted, etc, and that any woman not so, is suspect, or somehow less of a woman.  As a bio-woman, I always rejected that, just as I now reject the more rigid definitions of what makes a man.

It's impossible for any culture to not develop roles and definitions for its members - that's part of what makes a particular culture.  But that doesn't mean we always have to accept those definitions, or not make efforts to change them.  In our own ways, that's what every person in this Forum is doing every day.

So if such a choice (having full facial hair) makes people think about their gender assumptions, then so much the better.  I think Bev said it best when she simply stated Live and let live!

Scott
Mallard500

[RebeccaFog]

There's no excuse for a full beard, or a full ass crack of hair. 

Thank you for the image, but I'll have you know that the first attribute I look for in a woman is a full ass crack of hair.   

[Keira]

Lets just take the restroom, should all the women there just believe on faith that person is a women and that there is no danger to her. I can't believe anyone could call this fear bigotry. I'd be afraid and I'm 6 foot tall, can't imagine how a 5 foot tall woman would feel in this case. How can they guess that person's gender expression, should they have to guess? The only solution I can find for that is unisex stalls with outside access.

If someone wants to be post-modern or whatever they just have to bear the fact that not everybody's going to be on board with that instantly, and perhaps never. It takes year for people to accept their difference and then they want random strangers to accept them, when they barely are starting to accept themselves. You also have to put yourself in their shoes and see where they are coming from if anything will change and just calling their reaction bigotry will not help at all.

[Robyn]

Lets just take the restroom, should all the women there just believe on faith that person is a women and that there is no danger to her. I can't believe anyone could call this fear bigotry. I'd be afraid and I'm 6 foot tall, can't imagine how a 5 foot tall woman would feel in this case. How can they guess that person's gender expression, should they have to guess? The only solution I can find for that is unisex stalls with outside access.

IMHO, a man/person in a dress with a beard is trying to make a statement.  I believe that statement would be best made in a men's room.

Robyn

[tinkerbell]

Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira  :  bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard.  This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them.  So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.

tink

[SarahFaceDoom]

Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira  :  bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard.  This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them.  So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.

tink

Change beard to penis, and realize that you're being a hypocrite.  And also completely irrational.

[Nero]

As to the restroom situation: I'll put it bluntly. I don't want someone with a beard in the Ladies room with my mother. I don't care who or what the hell they are - if they have a full beard, I'd be furious and probably hunt the bearded individual down if I saw them coming out of the restroom my mother was in.
REAL women's (trans and non-trans) safety has to come first, way before this indivdual's 'gender statment' to the world.

[RebeccaFog]

As to the restroom situation: I'll put it bluntly. I don't want someone with a beard in the Ladies room with my mother. I don't care who or what the hell they are - if they have a full beard, I'd be furious and probably hunt the bearded individual down if I saw them coming out of the restroom my mother was in.
REAL women's (trans and non-trans) safety has to come first, way before this indivdual's 'gender statment' to the world.

Are you saying if they had a penis and NO beard, it wouldn't be a problem?

Just curious.

[mallard500]

Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira  :  bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard.  This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them.  So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.

tink

I may be treading on thin ice here, but the climete's already gotten a little chilly...

And so, if this is the case Ladies, then I'd like to honestly ask you, "How well do you pass to bio-women?"

There's several transwomen where I work that don't pass particularly well, at this point anyway.  My workplace is very supportive, but as a Supervisor, I do occasionally get women coming to me saying they're uncomfortable with seeing those women in the Female bathroom.

My response to them is always the same:  I quote them company policy, (which says you use the bathroom your legal ID says you are), and then ask them what they think would happen if these women used the Mens bathroom?

So I understand that some women are concerned with seeing bio-males in Female bathrooms, but what I DON'T understand is another Transwoman using that arguement unless she can totally pass 100% of the time.  Because if you can't, then believe me, you've no doubt been the source of those same concerns yourself!

For that reason, I'm not buying the 'safety' arguement at all... sorry.  It really sounds to me as though you simply can't understand why someone would make the choice she has.  I can't claim to understand it either, but I won't pre-judge it without knowing why.

There's plenty of people who can't understand why a bio male would want to have their genitals removed, or a bio female have their breasts reduced - we made those decisions for ourselves however, for our own very good reasons. So I'd be very hesitant to judge this persons actions without knowing her reasons...

Scott
Mallard500

[Nero]

Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira  :  bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard.  This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them.  So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.

tink

Change beard to penis, and realize that you're being a hypocrite.  And also completely irrational.

Sarah, the difference is that the individual Melissa described is not even trying for a female presentation.
If I saw her, I wouldn't think she was a transwoman because the first step most transwomen make is electrolysis.
During the time before electrolysis is complete, they shave  and cover the best they can.
So I would assume this person was not a woman.

[RebeccaFog]

   I saw GG's (they were beautiful) at the pride parade and they had beard's painted on and I thought they were lovely.
   I think I'm trying to say that it was obvious they were women.  Even if the beards had been real, it would of been obvious.

I guess I have no point in this observation.

[tinkerbell]

Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira  :  bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard.  This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them.  So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.

tink

Change beard to penis, and realize that you're being a hypocrite.  And also completely irrational.

As I said, call it as you wish, you are entitled to it, just make sure to attack the issue when doing so (not the posters).

10. Bashing or flaming of any individual is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.


15. You may challenge the issue, but never the person

tink

[SarahFaceDoom]

Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira  :  bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard.  This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them.  So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.

tink

Change beard to penis, and realize that you're being a hypocrite.  And also completely irrational.

Sarah, the difference is that the individual Melissa described is not even trying for a female presentation.
If I saw her, I wouldn't think she was a transwoman because the first step most transwomen make is electrolysis.
During the time before electrolysis is complete, they shave  and cover the best they can.
So I would assume this person was not a woman.

All she said was that they had a mustache/goatee and ID'ed as a woman.  So they could be dressed as a woman.  Have done HRT, have long hair, and otherwise be completely what you would deem female, just with facial hair.  But on the basis of that facial hair you are passing judgment on their whole existence and advocating they be mistreated by society in all the ways that trans people have campaigned AGAINST for years and years.

[Keira]

Good grief Mallard, the Melissa's example is someone with a full beard and moustache, that's pretty unambigous to most people... Its not a case of interpretation here. Taking one case and then extending to something else entirely is a definite case of straw argument.

If your doing it at work, people will be informed, quite different.

In society in general, I'd minimally expect carry letters if that person's trying for the restroom (not even sure she would get it) because some people will complain to security for sure.

As for the security argument, I've got two 5 foot tall female friends who were assaulted and can barely tolerate going outside the house, let alone men in restroom. Even if that person's the sweetest person on earth, how could those women know that?

Like I said, the answer to this is to create unisex restroom stalls accessible from a corridor. That way, everybody's satisfied. Parents with their children would also be happy with that.

This is incredibly circular and if you knew my background at all, you'd know that being called a bigot, or whatever else, is something that flies in the face of my whole life!!! Signing off before I lose my cool (rarely do, but hey, it happens).

[RebeccaFog]

My girlfriend has a heavy mustache and it doesn't scare me.

[SarahFaceDoom]

Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira  :  bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard.  This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them.  So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.

tink

Change beard to penis, and realize that you're being a hypocrite.  And also completely irrational.

As I said, call it as you wish, you are entitled to it, just make sure to attack the issue when doing so (not the posters).

10. Bashing or flaming of any individual is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.


15. You may challenge the issue, but never the person

tink

Ok.  Sorry.  What I meant was that the view on this issue that women with beards are not women, is hypocritical and irrational.  Not you specifically.  I applogize in my rush to the point, that I personalized it to your direction, when it's the view I have a problem with, not you personally, as I don't know you, and probably like you fine otherwise.

[tinkerbell]

If I saw her, I wouldn't think she was a transwoman because the first step most transwomen make is electrolysis.
During the time before electrolysis is complete, they shave  and cover the best they can.
So I would assume this person was not a woman.

and that, too, would be your right, and you will be entitled to it.

tink

[Shana A]

Yeah, yeah, I know what some of you are going to say, but we do live in that kind of world whether we like it or not.

I'm all too aware of the way the world is. But instead of just accepting current attitudes and discrimination against trans or non-trans individuals whose gender expression doesn't conform to the binary, what can we be doing as a community to make this world safer for all.

Zythyra

[Nero]

Oh yeah the glorious nouns Keira  :  bigotry, elitism, superiority, snobbery, arrogance...yeah...well, I am NOT going to jeopardize my safety by being in a room with someone who calls herself a woman and has a full beard.  This person could be a weirdo for all I know hiding in women's only spaces to pounce on them.  So call it as you wish, it is my right to set my limits.

tink

Change beard to penis, and realize that you're being a hypocrite.  And also completely irrational.

Sarah, the difference is that the individual Melissa described is not even trying for a female presentation.
If I saw her, I wouldn't think she was a transwoman because the first step most transwomen make is electrolysis.
During the time before electrolysis is complete, they shave  and cover the best they can.
So I would assume this person was not a woman.

All she said was that they had a mustache/goatee and ID'ed as a woman.  So they could be dressed as a woman.  Have done HRT, have long hair, and otherwise be completely what you would deem female, just with facial hair.  But on the basis of that facial hair you are passing judgment on their whole existence and advocating they be mistreated by society in all the ways that trans people have campaigned AGAINST for years and years.

Whoa whoa Whoa I never 'advocated they be mistreated in society'.  I just said I would not want my mother to be put in that position where she has no clue what gender this person is and is sharing the bathroom with them.
I mean - violence against women is no myth. This person could be a transwoman and this person could very well also be a serial rapist or even killer. There's just no way to determine that on a glance.
I thought this was something universal, understood by all women.
Would you really want to be in that position?

[candifla]

I met a gal with a beard,
whom kids ran from afeared;
it hung low down past her chin.

One morn she looked into a glass,
shocked, surprised and aghast;
"my goatee," she screamed, "is too thin!"